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'[EE]TSSOP for diy'er?'
2004\10\15@040249 by Mcgee, Mark

flavicon
face
Hi

As part of another discussion a few days ago, I was recommended to use a
MAX3001E chip as a level translator - I needed to translate a 1.5v signal to
5v as input to a PIC.

I've managed to obtain a sample of this chip, and it's incredibly tiny - TSSOP
packaging.  I'm a hobbyist, and I've never come across this format before.
How can I use this in my project?  It seems way too tiny to solder by hand on
to a PCB, and I'm not sure it would survive that process anyway.  Is there a
connector which'll convert from TSSOP to DIP for example?  or at least some
plug in connector that I can solder to a PCB, and plug the chip in to?

Regards,
Mark

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2004\10\15@042233 by Peter Moreton

flavicon
face
Easy. Just tack opposite pins of the IC onto the PCB, then solder each pin
with generaous amounts of solder, not worrying about solder bridges. Then
using Solder Wick, remove the excess solder. Works every time.


{Original Message removed}

2004\10\15@043852 by Mcgee, Mark

flavicon
face
Forgive my ignorance, but what's solder wick?

Thanks for the advice, assuming I can get solder wick, I now have a way of
getting that tiny little b*gger on to the PCB!

Are there no sockets for these things though?  I'd feel somehow more
comfortable with that.

Cheers,
Mark

> {Original Message removed}

2004\10\15@045940 by Peter Moreton

flavicon
face
Solder wick is simply copper braid impregnated with flux. Mine is made by
'Multicore' and I think, there part number NC-AA. Quite magic stuff. So long
as you have a decent pcb, ideally with solder resist, you really should have
no problem soldering TSSOP's.  

{Original Message removed}

2004\10\15@051111 by Jinx

face picon face
> It seems way too tiny to solder by hand on to a PCB, and I'm
> not sure it would survive that process anyway

It will. I regularly solder, by hand, TSSOP logic and large RAM
ICs. My soldering iron is a general purpose 25W Antex with a
chisel bit, used for just about everything

What you need is fine solder (22 gauge/0.71mm for example), a
hands-free magnifier and, especially, a clean tip. Site the IC and
solder two opposite corner pins first, then carefully, with your wrist
supported, do the other pins neatly and quickly with just enough
solder to make the joint flow. It does work, trust me, be patient

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2004\10\15@051347 by Mcgee, Mark

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Thanks Peter, I'll have a look for some when I do my next order.

Cheers,
Mark

{Quote hidden}

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2004\10\15@075624 by Bill & Pookie

picon face
Solder wick will draw off the excess solder on a solder connection..  To use
it, make a sandwich with the connection on bottom, the wick as the meat and
the soldering iron on top as the bread.  When the wick gets hot enuff, the
solder will flow up and into the wick.

As a personal thing, I then cut off the end of the wick that contains
solder.

Bill

{Original Message removed}

2004\10\15@080244 by Josh Koffman

face picon face
If you have steady enough hands and a super-fine tip, you can solder
them pin by pin. This is how I do it.

Sockets for surfact mount parts are available, but look at spending
$40-60 or more on them. It's usually cheaper to ruin 5 chips than it
is to buy a socket. Plus with a little practice, you won't ruin them.

Also, please try to trim your posts. Remember, what you send is copied
to hundreds of people. Those extra lines containing useless sigs and
quotes from previous emails use up a lot of bandwidth and make the
list hard to read for many users. Just delete everything not
immediately relevant. Notice how little I've left on mine, and yet
it's still understandable.

Thanks,

Josh
--
A common mistake that people make when trying to design something
completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete
fools.
       -Douglas Adams

On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 09:38:41 +0100, Mcgee, Mark <spamBeGonemark.mcgeespamBeGonespamcsfb.com> wrote:
> Forgive my ignorance, but what's solder wick?
>
> Thanks for the advice, assuming I can get solder wick, I now have a way of
> getting that tiny little b*gger on to the PCB!
>
> Are there no sockets for these things though?  I'd feel somehow more
> comfortable with that.
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2004\10\15@082306 by Peter Moreton

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face
Josh,

Just to clarify my approach, I often solder small stuff pin by pin also, and
used to live in fear that a bridged connection would ruin the part/pcb.
Having solder wick to hand means that you can always recover from a solder
bridge. I hear also that some people use an over-sized iron, flood the pcb
with flux, and 'wipe' solder across the pins. I'm not brave enough to try
this!

Peter


{Original Message removed}

2004\10\15@094536 by John J. McDonough

flavicon
face
Mark

Let me elaborate on this a bit.  I know it seems impossible and although
it's not hard, there are a lot of dots unconnected here.

An 8 pin TSSOP is a piece of cake.  Nothing needs described other than don't
be afraid of it.  But the more interesting ones seem to be 28 pins or more.
These take a bit of thought.

First, run down to Radio Shaft and get the aforementioned solder wick and
also get some paste flux.  The Radio Shack flux is rosin (important) and
very sticky (also important).  There are a lot of manufacturers of solder
wick -- as best I can tell, most of them are useless.  Actual "Solder-Wick"
brand is quite good, as is Radio Shack's.  I have tried quite a few that are
horrible.

You can get little cards for attaching a TSSOP to a SIP or DIP socket, but
these things tend to be kind of expensive.  FAR Circuits has some
prototyping boards for TSSOP that are a little more reasonable.  In any
case, you still need to solder the little bugger.

Before you start make a printout of the component side foil.

Now, the way you do this is the following.  First, slobber a bunch of flux
on the board where you want the chip to go.  Now you can stick the chip down
and it won't run away.  Keep in mind, however, that once you get the board
hot that flux is going to turn liquid and the chip will float away.

Now, take a strong magnifier, and gently move the chip around until it's
little legs are square on all the pads.  This will take quite a few passes
of look, gently push, look again. Those pins really are tiny, but I'm an old
fart and I can do it, so can you.

Next, heat a trace going to one of the corners of the chip, and flow some
solder onto the trace.  Since the whole chip area is covered with flux, the
solder will wick up onto the leg of the chip.  If you do it quickly enough,
most of the flux will stay sticky and the chip won't move very far.

Grab out your magnifier again and check ALL the pins.  Since you only have
one leg soldered, you can still move the chip a little to get it aligned.
Double check and then check again.

Now tack down the opposite corner of the chip just like you did the first.

Magnifier again.  You are about to reach the point of no return, so be
absolutely certain every pin is lined up on it's pad.  Check again.

Now, lay your soldering iron against one row of pins and slobber a whole
bunch of solder on them.  Remember, these things are made of silicon which
is almost like glass.  Unless you really go nuts with an oversized iron a
little heat won't hurt the thing.  They were made to be baked in an over,
after all.

Once the one side has cooled, do the same thing to the other side.

Now, go back to the first side and suck up all the solder with the solder
wick.  The stuff is pretty amazing, BUT, it can't quite get the solder out
from underneath the pins.  You can pretty much clean out all the solder and
the pins will stay connected.  Again with the magnifying glass, make sure
you didn't leave any bridges, and make sure that none of the pins are
sitting high and dry.  Repeat with the second side.

This is where you need that printout.  A lot of times, adjacent pins will
have foil between them.  Those pins are tiny, and it's hard to get anough
light in there to see well, so you need the printout to see whether that
bridge is supposed to be there.

This sounds kind of involved ... it really isn't.  It probably takes 5 or 10
minutes, which is maybe a lot of time for one component, but you'll take
more than a minute or two soldering a 28 pin DIP, too, so it's really not
that bad.

Hope this helps

--McD


----- Original Message -----
From: "Mcgee, Mark" <TakeThisOuTmark.mcgeeEraseMEspamspam_OUTcsfb.com>
To: "'Microcontroller discussion list - Public.'" <RemoveMEpiclistspamTakeThisOuTmit.edu>
Sent: Friday, October 15, 2004 5:13 AM
Subject: RE: [EE]TSSOP for diy'er?


> Thanks Peter, I'll have a look for some when I do my next order.


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2004\10\15@101327 by Herbert Graf

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On Fri, 2004-10-15 at 04:02, Mcgee, Mark wrote:
> Hi
>
> As part of another discussion a few days ago, I was recommended to use a
> MAX3001E chip as a level translator - I needed to translate a 1.5v signal to
> 5v as input to a PIC.
>
> I've managed to obtain a sample of this chip, and it's incredibly tiny - TSSOP
> packaging.  I'm a hobbyist, and I've never come across this format before.
> How can I use this in my project?  It seems way too tiny to solder by hand on
> to a PCB, and I'm not sure it would survive that process anyway.  

Definitely possible by hand, have done it myself quite a few times now.
You need a very good iron, a very good light, very good eyesight and a
very steady hand. A stereo microscope is also VERY useful, not required,
but MUCH easier.

> Is there a
> connector which'll convert from TSSOP to DIP for example?  or at least some
> plug in connector that I can solder to a PCB, and plug the chip in to?

There are ZIF sockets out there which convert those tiny packages to
through hole, however they are extremely expensive ($100ish) and I have
no idea where my company gets them.

It doesn't look like that chip comes in a "nicer" package, so I'd
suggest switching to a different chip that's available in a nicer
package, if you aren't willing to go the hand solder route. TTYL

-----------------------------
Herbert's PIC Stuff:
http://repatch.dyndns.org:8383/pic_stuff/

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2004\10\15@102207 by Josh Koffman

face picon face
Your experience sounds pretty much the same as mine. I have a few
worries about the solder wipe method, so for the time being I'll stick
with individual pin soldering. That is, at least until my hands aren't
so steady. Solder wick is great for removing bridges though, I always
have a few sizes around. Just remember, it won't work well unless you
have a hot iron.

Josh
--
A common mistake that people make when trying to design something
completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete
fools.
       -Douglas Adams

On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 13:23:58 +0100, Peter Moreton
<peter.moretonEraseMEspam.....virgin.net> wrote:
> Just to clarify my approach, I often solder small stuff pin by pin also, and
> used to live in fear that a bridged connection would ruin the part/pcb.
> Having solder wick to hand means that you can always recover from a solder
> bridge. I hear also that some people use an over-sized iron, flood the pcb
> with flux, and 'wipe' solder across the pins. I'm not brave enough to try
> this!
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2004\10\15@104650 by Dave VanHorn

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At 03:59 AM 10/15/2004, Peter Moreton wrote:

>Solder wick is simply copper braid impregnated with flux. Mine is made by
>'Multicore' and I think, there part number NC-AA. Quite magic stuff. So long
>as you have a decent pcb, ideally with solder resist, you really should have
>no problem soldering TSSOP's.

Buy good braid! Off brands don't wick well, and are pretty useless.
Chemwick, Multicore, fine.

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2004\10\15@105923 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> What you need is fine solder (22 gauge/0.71mm for example), a
> hands-free magnifier and, especially, a clean tip. Site the IC and
> solder two opposite corner pins first, then carefully, with your wrist
> supported, do the other pins neatly and quickly with just enough
> solder to make the joint flow. It does work, trust me, be patient

I guess I am lazy. I just pour enough solder on the legs, then use wick
to remove the excess. Works fine for me. IMHO a good hands-free
magnifier and good (thin) solder wick and idem solder are more important
than the iron.

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


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2004\10\15@112814 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>Solder wick is great for removing bridges though, I
>always have a few sizes around. Just remember, it
>won't work well unless you have a hot iron.

Sometimes I find it pays to add a little rosin to the braid before putting
the iron and braid on the joint. This helps the solder to wick up the braid,
as the rosin helps to "tin" the braid. Required more when the braid has aged
a bit, and oxidised I think.

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2004\10\15@122152 by Dal Wheeler

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Me too, if you use enough flux and your timing/tip heat is right the solder
flows where it needs to with little bridging anyway.  Just move a small ball
of solder around with your tip and clean it with solder wick if you need to.
Usually it’s the last couple of pins that you finish with on a row. I use
the kester water soluble stuff.

-Dal

{Original Message removed}

2004\10\17@040241 by hilip Stortz

picon face
so what are people doing about chips that are "moisture sensitive" and
what do the different levels mean (i.e. is "level 1" highly sensitive or
no problem?).  i've sampled a number of such chips, and while i'm not
too worried (wyoming is dry) i'd like to know, and i'd like to know if i
really should bake these guys overnight to be safe, particularly on the
larger ones.  (fyi, i solder a 28 pin dip faster and better than most,
so i'm quick, but i'd hate to pop a chip).  i also may be using a
home-brew oven eventually, which i suspect makes it more of an issue
given the longer and greater heating that's likely (assuming i don't run
into problems doing it by hand, which always has to start a mental timer
before i over do things).

"John J. McDonough" wrote:
>
> Mark
>
> Let me elaborate on this a bit.  I know it seems impossible and although
> it's not hard, there are a lot of dots unconnected here.
>
> An 8 pin TSSOP is a piece of cake.  Nothing needs described other than don't
> be afraid of it.  But the more interesting ones seem to be 28 pins or more.
> These take a bit of thought.
>
--------

--
"We cannot simply suspend or restrict civil liberties until the War of
Terror is over, because the
War on Terror is unlikely ever to be truly over," Judge Gerald Tjoflat
wrote for the three-member
court. "September 11, 2001, already a day of immeasurable tragedy,
cannot be the day liberty
perished in this country." <www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/10/16/protesters.terrorism.ap/index.html>
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2004\10\17@040714 by hilip Stortz

picon face
has any one tried those stereo magnifiers that you wear on your head?  i
think i've seen them available up to 6x power which would be pretty good
(though the higher magnification sets have lower depth of field, so
maybe 2.5X would be enough to help?).  i worked at a company where one
of the machinist wore one nearly constantly and they look like a pretty
good idea, and pretty useful if the depth of field and magnification are
both in a useful range.  definitely a lot cheaper than a stereo
microscope though less magnification (but better depth of field i suspect).

Herbert Graf wrote:
------
> Definitely possible by hand, have done it myself quite a few times now.
> You need a very good iron, a very good light, very good eyesight and a
> very steady hand. A stereo microscope is also VERY useful, not required,
> but MUCH easier.
-------

--
"We cannot simply suspend or restrict civil liberties until the War of
Terror is over, because the
War on Terror is unlikely ever to be truly over," Judge Gerald Tjoflat
wrote for the three-member
court. "September 11, 2001, already a day of immeasurable tragedy,
cannot be the day liberty
perished in this country." <www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/10/16/protesters.terrorism.ap/index.html>
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2004\10\17@041044 by hilip Stortz

picon face
i haven't tried them, but metcal makes tips specifically designed for
wiping across multiple pins so i suspect it's reasonably sane.  i have
lots of metcal tips, just none of those (and unless i happen to see some
on ebay i won't have any of them, far too expensive at full price).
though i admit i've worried about tearing off traces etc. (solder
bridges don't worry me, since i always plan on checking and needing to
fix those any way).

Josh Koffman wrote:
>
> Your experience sounds pretty much the same as mine. I have a few
> worries about the solder wipe method, so for the time being I'll stick
--------

--
"We cannot simply suspend or restrict civil liberties until the War of
Terror is over, because the
War on Terror is unlikely ever to be truly over," Judge Gerald Tjoflat
wrote for the three-member
court. "September 11, 2001, already a day of immeasurable tragedy,
cannot be the day liberty
perished in this country." <www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/10/16/protesters.terrorism.ap/index.html>
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2004\10\17@074320 by Lee Jones

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face
> has any one tried those stereo magnifiers that you wear on your head?

I have and use the OptiVISOR from Donegan Optical Company,
Lenexa KS 66219 USA.  I have 3 powers -- DA-2, DA-3, & DA-5
-- all with optical glass binocular lenses.  Obviously the
different models trade magnification for working distance.

I've very happy with the optical quality.  Better image than
reading glasses.  But the reading glasses have a much wider
field of view.  Used to be, I never needed either one for very
close up work -- now I use them more frequently. <sigh>

I have never used ones with plastic lenses.

> i think i've seen them available up to 6x power which would be
> pretty good (though the higher magnification sets have lower
> depth of field, so maybe 2.5X would be enough to help?).

I use the #5 lens plate for fine pitch IC work.

Donegan makes 6 interchangable lens plates as follows:

   plate    magnifies   working distance
     2      1-1/2 X     20 inches
     3      1-3/4 X     14 inches
     4      2 X         10 inches
     5      2-1/2 X      8 inches
     7      2-3/4 X      6 inches
    10      3-1/2 X      4 inches

The lens plates are almost as expensive as a whole unit.  To
me, it's worth the couple bucks for the convenience of having
multiple whole units (rather than trying to swap the plates).

If you're looking to buy, check with hobby dealers.  Two that
I have used are (and they have nice miniature tools too):

   Squadron/Signal, Carrollton TX USA, http://www.squadron.com
and
   Micro-Mark, Berkeley Heights NJ USA,  http://www.micromark.com

> pretty useful if the depth of field and magnification are
> both in a useful range.

I think the OptiVISOR satisfies both requirements.  Much better
image and better depth of field than a jeweler's loupe too.

> definitely a lot cheaper than a stereo microscope though
> less magnification (but better depth of field i suspect).

The stereo microscope fits in a different, higher power niche.
Certainly less freedom of movement and restricted working stage.

                                               Lee Jones

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2004\10\17@092905 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>I think the OptiVISOR satisfies both requirements.
>Much better image and better depth of field than a
>jeweler's loupe too.

I have an Optivisor too, and would not be without it. has the #3, #4 & #10
when I got it, but I have to change the lenses. What I do like is that the
lens have an angle to take account of the way the eyes point inwards when
close focusing. Trying to do this with a large single lens gets very hard on
the eyes.

I have very recently seen a similar style of magnifier which I would like to
investigate if I can track down the source. It does not have the shade above
the eyes like the Optivisor, and so it can be lowered further over the face.
It would make looking through the magnifier to probe a circuit, and then
looking up at an instrument, easier, instead of having to lift the head to
look under the magnifier. However the lenses are further from the eyes, so I
suspect it may not have as much magnification.

>The stereo microscope fits in a different, higher power
>niche. Certainly less freedom of movement and restricted
>working stage.

Agreed.

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2004\10\17@103907 by Herbert Graf

flavicon
face
On Sun, 2004-10-17 at 04:09, Philip Stortz wrote:
> has any one tried those stereo magnifiers that you wear on your head?  i
> think i've seen them available up to 6x power which would be pretty good
> (though the higher magnification sets have lower depth of field, so
> maybe 2.5X would be enough to help?).  i worked at a company where one
> of the machinist wore one nearly constantly and they look like a pretty
> good idea, and pretty useful if the depth of field and magnification are
> both in a useful range.  definitely a lot cheaper than a stereo
> microscope though less magnification (but better depth of field i suspect).

I've never seen those. I'd like to mention however that the scope we
have at work does 4X only, and I've found that has always been more then
enough. I can't really see 6X or more being necessary. Even fine pitched
BGA can be done with only 4X. TTYL

-----------------------------
Herbert's PIC Stuff:
http://repatch.dyndns.org:8383/pic_stuff/

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2004\10\18@080905 by Mcgee, Mark

flavicon
face
Thanks for a great description of what I need to do!  Now all I need is a very
fine tip for my soldering iron and a freestanding magnifying glass!

I notice that the pins from the TSSOP chip aren't long enough to fit through a
PCB - I assume I have to mount/solder this on the opposite side of the PCB,
i.e. to the copper/track side of the PCB?

Cheers,
Mark

> {Original Message removed}

2004\10\18@091030 by Herbert Graf

flavicon
face
On Mon, 2004-10-18 at 08:08, Mcgee, Mark wrote:
> Thanks for a great description of what I need to do!  Now all I need is a very
> fine tip for my soldering iron and a freestanding magnifying glass!
>
> I notice that the pins from the TSSOP chip aren't long enough to fit through a
> PCB - I assume I have to mount/solder this on the opposite side of the PCB,
> i.e. to the copper/track side of the PCB?

Yup, hence the name "surface mount".

Actually, if this is your first go I'd strongly suggest starting with a
SLIGHTLY easier package, a SO-8 is pretty easy to do, and great for a
starter to practise on. But if you feel up to the challenge and if
you're willing to put enough time into it TSSOP isn't beyond anyone.
Good luck! TTYL

-----------------------------
Herbert's PIC Stuff:
http://repatch.dyndns.org:8383/pic_stuff/

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2004\10\18@164923 by Charles Craft

picon face
These guys have great prices

http://www.brent-krueger.com/magnifiers.html

But when I called to order one the guy mentioned the phone fee which I eventually found in their
ordering info fine print. I order stuff off the web every week but am a little peeved that when I want
to place an order over the phone I get dinged for it. Moral dilemma now about where to order one. %-)


http://www.brent-krueger.com/payment.html

"Because were are primarily a warehouse operation, our wide selection and low prices are a reflection of the automation offered by our secure internet website.  All telephone orders will be assessed a $2.50 handling fee in addition to the shipping cost, which is based on weight and destination."


{Original Message removed}

2004\10\18@175324 by Jinx

face picon face
> I notice that the pins from the TSSOP chip aren't long enough to fit
> through a PCB - I assume I have to mount/solder this on the opposite
> side of the PCB, i.e. to the copper/track side of the PCB?

Yes, but you don't necesselery have to put the chip on the main PCB.
Anytime I get a chip like that that I wouldn't ordinarily use, and might
want to try in different circuits, I'll make a little personal PCB for it
and that's what gets moved around. This doesn't need to be etched -
you can make short straight tracks with a modelling knife. Once, when
only SMT AVR were available, I mounted the chip on a DIP socket
with small wires going to the pins. Not ideal, but 30 mins doing that is
better than waiting unproductive weeks for DIP stocks

BTW, another trick - recently a few small assemblies were required.
Basically a PIC + 3 relays + drivers. The only way this would squeeze
into the enclosure was to mount the components, all through-hole, on
the copper side of the board. The thickest component was the DIP
PIC so a rectangular hole was routed and it sat mid-PCB with its legs
splayed sideways. Relays could then be laid flat on the top side. Saved
a couple of mm in height and fitted in the box provided very snugly

____________________________________________

2004\10\18@190003 by Charles Craft

picon face
I started using this technique last year (someone posted link to PIClist) and still like it.
Layout the boards in Eagle with the PCB cuts on the milling layer.
Print that layer on a laser printer, stick to PCB with double sided tape and cut with an xacto knife.

http://www.maxim-ic.com/appnotes.cfm/appnote_number/1110

{Original Message removed}

2004\10\18@195955 by Jinx

face picon face
> http://www.maxim-ic.com/appnotes.cfm/appnote_number/1110

That's the kind of thing. Utility modules are handy, just like s/w library
routines. For example, a small PCB with a MAX232 + caps + DB9
and a connector (eg 8 pin DIP socket) on a short lead that can be
plugged into a breadboard. Other examples include a PIC + LCD with
a 4-way connector (5V, 0V, clock, data), 4081s + LEDs to monitor
port pins etc


____________________________________________

2004\10\20@041650 by Jinx

face picon face
Just on the subject of working with SMT and adapters ;

I was fortunate enough to get samples of the 10F206 yesterday.
They are just soooo dinky cute. And then I got around to thinking
how to program them. I will probably mount one in DIP8 format,
but need to get used to ICSP, particularly at this time with a Pic
Start Plus

Readme For PICSTART Plus.txt in MPLAB's readme662.zip

http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/DeviceDoc/readme662.zip

mentions using the Universal Programmer Adapter, although I spent
15 minutes looking for DS51478 or DS51479. Someone really ought
to fix their search engine, it's still NFG

Anyhoo, the PSP is OK for ICSPing the 10F

http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/DeviceDoc/51491A.pdf

But instead of using a header on a PCB that might be optimised for
size, what I thought would work is, in the tracks coming away from
10F, have breaks between closely-adjacent pads and after the s/w
has been uploaded, close the gaps with a solder bridges. And to
get the programme into the micro, either temporarily solder a 5-way
connector during development or, to re-programme in the field, de-
solder the bridges, push spring-loaded pins onto the pads to upload,
then re-solder the bridges

Any comments ?

____________________________________________

2004\10\20@080304 by Josh Koffman

face picon face
Olin's programmer (the professional one, not so sure about the
EasyProg) is capable of dealing with some not very nice ICSP
conditions. Perhaps if you just design carefully you could use a
programmer like that and avoid the hassle of desoldering/resoldering
bridges.

Josh
--
A common mistake that people make when trying to design something
completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete
fools.
       -Douglas Adams

On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 21:16:03 +1300, Jinx <EraseMEjoecolquittspamclear.net.nz> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

____________________________________________

2004\10\20@083111 by Jinx

face picon face
Thanks, I'll look into it. A nuisance with ICSP can be isolating the
PIC from other circuitry. I'd normally use a 4x2 header and 4
jumpers but that seems a waste for infrequent changes. 4 solder
blobs are almost costless

> Olin's programmer (the professional one, not so sure about the
> EasyProg) is capable of dealing with some not very nice ICSP
> conditions. Perhaps if you just design carefully you could use a
> programmer like that and avoid the hassle of desoldering/resoldering
> bridges.
>
> Josh


____________________________________________

2004\10\20@090253 by olin_piclist

face picon face
> > But instead of using a header on a PCB that might be optimised for
> > size, what I thought would work is, in the tracks coming away from
> > 10F, have breaks between closely-adjacent pads and after the s/w
> > has been uploaded, close the gaps with a solder bridges. And to
> > get the programme into the micro, either temporarily solder a 5-way
> > connector during development or, to re-programme in the field, de-
> > solder the bridges, push spring-loaded pins onto the pads to upload,
> > then re-solder the bridges
>

> Olin's programmer (the professional one, not so sure about the
> EasyProg) is capable of dealing with some not very nice ICSP
> conditions. Perhaps if you just design carefully you could use a
> programmer like that and avoid the hassle of desoldering/resoldering
> bridges.
>
> Josh

You can get a programmer (like http://www.embedinc.com/proprog) that is more
capable of overpowering the target circuit than many other programmers, but
you still have to consider what that does to the rest of the circuit.  I've
done several 10F designs, and dealing with in circuit programming has each
time been the most complicated issue.

Since 3 of the 4 I/O pins will be envolved in ICSP, you have to think about
this carefully.  Particularly keep in mind that GP3 (MCLR) will be rasied to
13V during programming.  This means it can't be driven directly by a logic
gate during normal operation.  The knee jerk answer is to put 20Kohms in
series with whatever is driving GP3, but also note that the internal weak
pullup is always enabled when this pin is used in the MCLR role.  In one
case it worked out conveniently for this to be an open collector line using
the weak MCLR internal pullup.  The drivers were all special chips or
discrete transistors that could handle 13V when off.  Other times, I just
couldn't use the MCLR function so that the weak pullup could be off.  Note
that this also prevents using the weak pullups on other the other pins GP0
and GP1.

The 10Fs are great small and "simple" parts, but I've found require
disproportionally more thought and care to use effectively than bigger PICs.
And yes, this sometimes means adding a few resistors and the like to the
circuit that are only useful during programming.  That may add a couple
cents to the overall cost, but it's still impressive what you can do for 1/3
dollar.  Also keep in mind the total cost of producing a unit with a
programmed 10F.  $.05 in extra parts is bound to be cheaper than production
tech time messing around with solder bridges, not to mention the
reliability.


*****************************************************************
Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts
(978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com
____________________________________________

2004\10\20@111030 by Peter Johansson

flavicon
face
Olin Lathrop writes:

> The 10Fs are great small and "simple" parts, but I've found require
> disproportionally more thought and care to use effectively than bigger PICs.
> And yes, this sometimes means adding a few resistors and the like to the
> circuit that are only useful during programming.  That may add a couple
> cents to the overall cost, but it's still impressive what you can do for 1/3
> dollar.

Where does one find PIC10Fs for 1/3 dollar?  And what quantity is
required to get this price?

-p.
____________________________________________

2004\10\20@125740 by olin_piclist

face picon face
> Where does one find PIC10Fs for 1/3 dollar?  And what quantity is
> required to get this price?

One of my current projects uses a 10F204.  I can't give out details, but
yes, you can get them down at these prices if you want to buy a million of
them.


*****************************************************************
Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts
(978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com
____________________________________________

2004\10\20@134454 by hilip Stortz

picon face
sounds like a basically reasonable fee, but it should definitely be
prominently mentioned on/in the catalog and website.  every company has
different policies, but i expect them to prominently mention any unusual
terms and conditions, particularly when there is a fee involved.
however, given that fee, i have to wonder how they handle returns and
quality problems, though at the same time i know some customers really
push it on the phone, wanting all kinds of advice and help, while others
just read off their list.  it seems reasonable to charge those needing a
lot of help an extra fee, but $2.50 for a quick, easy order on the phone
does seem excessive.

Charles Craft wrote:

> But when I called to order one the guy mentioned the phone fee which I eventually found in their
> ordering info fine print. I order stuff off the web every week but am a little peeved that when I want
> to place an order over the phone I get dinged for it. Moral dilemma now about where to order one. %-)
>
> http://www.brent-krueger.com/payment.html
>
> "Because were are primarily a warehouse operation, our wide selection and low prices are a reflection of the automation offered by our secure internet website.  All telephone orders will be assessed a $2.50 handling fee in addition to the shipping cost, which is based on weight and destination."
---------

--
Philip Stortz, mad scientist at large -- "It is sobering to reflect that
one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen
these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding
fathers used in the struggle for independence." -- Charles A. Beard
<http://myweb.wyoming.com/~madscientist/InsatiableAppetite.pdf>


____________________________________________

2004\10\20@174813 by John J. McDonough

flavicon
face
Yes - if you notice, the pins also flare out so they lay flat against the
board.  The part simply lays on the traces, and the pin sitting on the pad
forms a place where capillary action can pull the solder between the two.

By the way, silver-bearing solder flows a little better for this purpose,
but it's not a huge win.

Take a peek at http://www.qsl.net/wb8rcr/AD9850.html for a close up picture
of a TSSOP28 hand soldered.  The web site is dog-slow so it will take a bit
of waiting.  Notice that there is hardly any solder left on top of the pins,
but each pin has a layer of solder gluing it to the pad.

--McD

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mcgee, Mark" <RemoveMEmark.mcgeeEraseMEspamEraseMEcsfb.com>
To: "'Microcontroller discussion list - Public.'" <RemoveMEpiclistspam_OUTspamKILLspammit.edu>
Sent: Monday, October 18, 2004 8:08 AM
Subject: RE: [EE]TSSOP for diy'er?


> Thanks for a great description of what I need to do!  Now all I need is a
very
> fine tip for my soldering iron and a freestanding magnifying glass!
>
> I notice that the pins from the TSSOP chip aren't long enough to fit
through a
> PCB - I assume I have to mount/solder this on the opposite side of the
PCB,
> i.e. to the copper/track side of the PCB?
>
> Cheers,
> Mark
>
> > {Original Message removed}

2004\10\20@184032 by Jinx

face picon face
Thanks for your reply Olin

> The 10Fs are great small and "simple" parts, but I've found require
> disproportionally more thought and care to use effectively than bigger
> PICs

Yes, I realised that yesterday when first thinking about how to proceed
with the 10F and then later in the day drawing up an 18F452 board that
had pins to spare

>$.05 in extra parts is bound to be cheaper than production tech time
> messing around with solder bridges, not to mention the reliability

For low quantity runs, solder bridges probably aren't too onerous

For med-high runs, would Microchip's QTP service be more economic ?

A high-volume recall to reprogramme a 10F sounds like a disaster (the
reason for the recall may or may not be the 10F's fault, eg some other
part could change). The addition of extra components would in that case
pay off

____________________________________________

2004\10\20@190053 by Simon Dyer

picon face
ICSP has recently become a concern for me - my PIC10F LED Driver
prototype requires desoldering to programme the PIC.  How can I
determine if this is caused by lack of current from my PICKit1 ( other
than purchasing your proprog that is )  I don't want to support
disconnection in production.  I could be drawing 110ma from Vdd.

Regards,
Simon Dyer

[[SD]] .......from Olin....
You can get a programmer (like http://www.embedinc.com/proprog) that is
more
capable of overpowering the target circuit than many other programmers,
but
you still have to consider what that does to the rest of the circuit.
[[SD]] ......



____________________________________________

2004\10\20@205149 by Bob Axtell

face picon face
I have a number of working designs that isolate the PIC VCC with a small
schottky diode.
While the specs say the drop will be 90-100mv, in practice the drop is
half that, due
to low avg operating current at the PIC itself. This allows the PIC to
be powered by the programmer
without powering the rest of the VCC load. You MUST place a bypass cap
(0.1uF is good)
across the PIC VCC and GND for proper operation.

The MCLR pin is in most cases lost; the 13V applied to turn on
programming mode is
hard to design around. ThePGC pin can be isolated from its normal
operating circuit
with a high-value resistor, since it ALWAYS drives the PIC. The PGD pin
can also be
isolated by a diode too, as long as the normal operating circuit can
work properly in SINK
ONLY mode. This will allow complete ICSP without desoldering, switches,
etc.  

Another trick if the design is physically too small for a programming
connector is to make
a bottom-side SIP array of 5 pads. This array can be probed by a
spring-loaded set of
probes; I like the ones made by MillMax.

If anybody needs a schematic example, email me privately for a PDF.

--Bob

Simon Dyer wrote:

{Quote hidden}

>_____________________________________________

2004\10\21@081458 by olin_piclist

face picon face
Simon Dyer wrote:
> ICSP has recently become a concern for me - my PIC10F LED Driver
> prototype requires desoldering to programme the PIC.  How can I
> determine if this is caused by lack of current from my PICKit1 ( other
> than purchasing your proprog that is )

That is the recommended procedure of course ;-)

> I don't want to support
> disconnection in production.  I could be drawing 110ma from Vdd.

What programmer are you using?  The first thing to do is check whether it
can source 110mA Vdd.  Some probably can, but I'm guessing the majority of
hobby programmers can't.  For example, the EasyProg can do this for a short
time, but the little TO-92 pass transistor will soak up a watt or two and go
poof pretty quickly.  Perhaps you are seeing flaky operation because the
programmer has already gotten damaged?  Otherwise, put a scope on the Vdd
line and see if it ever gets to 5V during programming.

If this is for hobby use, make the solder bridges jumpers or even a switch.
If this is a commercial product that will be manufactured in volume, it
sounds like a true production programmer that can source 110mA Vdd is the
cheapest option in the long run.


*****************************************************************
Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts
(978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com
____________________________________________

2004\10\21@092645 by Lawrence Lile
flavicon
face
I have hacked robust 5V power supplies into PICstart's and had good luck with powering things in-circuit.  With a little more hacking a PICstart makes a dandy ICSP programmer, especially if you get one free at Master's.

-- Lawrence Lile, P.E.
Electrical and Electronic Solutions
Project Solutions Companies
http://www.projsolco.com

> {Original Message removed}

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