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'[EE] solving the 5 second NFL delay problem vs. lo'
2005\09\01@093725 by jacksonharbor1

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Fellows and Gals -

While googling on: "5 second delay" nfl network tv "local radio"
(the delay between the network TV broadcast of a football game and
the local radio is irritating, like always knowing the future but
only 5 seconds of the future), I noticed the following:

 <http://delayplayradio.com>

It seems a little expensive to me, I suppose a tape
loop of 5 seconds would be possible but I was thinking of
a simple chip solution, maybe two Winbond (used to be ISD)
voice recorder chips and a PIC.  Start recording
with one of the chips and after 5 seconds, switch
to recording with the other chip while changing
the first chip into playback mode.  From then
on just switch between the two.

Any other ideas ?

Best Regards,

Chuck Olson

2005\09\01@100013 by Mark Rages

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On 9/1/05, spam_OUTwb9kzyTakeThisOuTspamarrl.net <.....jacksonharbor1KILLspamspam@spam@att.net> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

For less money (and better resale value), buy a "delay" guitar stomp-box.

The general solution is a PCM codec and a circular buffer in RAM.  If
you sample at 8kHz (voice quality) and 16 bits, that's 8e3*2*5=80K of
RAM required.  You could probably do this with a PIC, an external
SRAM, and a
PCM codec.

It would also be rather trivial to do this with a shell script or
simple program on a computer.

Regards,
Mark
markrages@gmail
--
You think that it is a secret, but it never has been one.
 - fortune cookie

2005\09\01@105422 by Michael Rigby-Jones

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{Quote hidden}

An ADC, a DAC, a chunk of static RAM and an FPGA/CPLD or a PIC.  Using a PC and a soundcard could be a low cost/free solution with either existing audio manipulation software or a custom written application.

Regards

Mike

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2005\09\01@161346 by Peter

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I do not know whence this 5 second delay comes from but normally you
would use a 5 second long digital ring buffer. If the sound is sampled
at 8kHz you need 40,000 samples for 5 seconds. A 64kByte by 8 bit memory
and a PIC with adc could solve your problem.

Peter

2005\09\01@182716 by Robert Rolf

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What about calling the station you're listening to, and
asking them to put in the delay for game broadcasts?
They already have the hardware if they have any
sort of live phone in show, and you could use the argument
that this would get them more listeners since they'd then be
in sync with the video telecasts of their TV competitors.

And a commercial music/guitar effects processor is probably the
quickest solution to getting a variable delay.
What's your time worth?

The idea of flip flopping a pair of ICD recording devices
sounds like a cheap/code-free solution.

Peter wrote:

>
> I do not know whence this 5 second delay comes

You can thank Janet Jackson and 'nipplegate' for the delay.
It exists because broadcasters are afraid of the huge fines they
would get from the FCC if any 'bad words' (or gestures)
slipped out of the mouths of the players and were picked up
by the field mics. Politically correctness run amok.


>  from but normally you
> would use a 5 second long digital ring buffer. If the sound is sampled
> at 8kHz you need 40,000 samples for 5 seconds. A 64kByte by 8 bit memory
> and a PIC with adc could solve your problem.
>
> Peter
>

2005\09\02@080618 by M. Adam Davis

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The delay was there before last year's superbowl.  A "live" TV
broadcast has to go through a lot to get to you:

- Field cameras generate video
- A digital video enhancement trailer augments all the imagery (yellow
field lines, digitial interstitials for camera switching, player info,
etc)
- A switching bank controls which video is currently 'active'
- Goes up to a satellite, then back down to the broadcasting
headquarters (ABC, etc) where it is again delayed slightly for various
reasons
- Goes up to a satellite and is then picked up by the affiliate TV
stations (another slight delay, mostly genlocking the incoming signal
(digital video and audio) with the station clock)
- Broadcast on local airwaves.

Whereas the local radio broadcasting the local game will have little
or no noticable delay, and local radio broadcasting an away game may
have one satellite hop.

This is actually on *top* of the induced delay which both the radio
and broadcast stations may choose to use.  If you take a TV and radio
to the stadium you may find that your delay is actually 20 seconds for
broadcast and 15 seconds for radio.  If you tune in other TV stations
broadcasting from one city over, the delay may be reduced or increased
as they sync with their schedule.  In any case, due to the satellite
transmissions and digital enhancment, the TV signal is always going to
be more than 1-2 seconds behind the game.

As always, YMMV.

-Adam

On 9/1/05, Robert Rolf <Robert.Rolfspamspam_OUTualberta.ca> wrote:
> >
> > I do not know whence this 5 second delay comes
>
> You can thank Janet Jackson and 'nipplegate' for the delay.
> It exists because broadcasters are afraid of the huge fines they
> would get from the FCC if any 'bad words' (or gestures)
> slipped out of the mouths of the players and were picked up
> by the field mics. Politically correctness run amok.

2005\09\02@133632 by Herbert Graf

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face
On Thu, 2005-09-01 at 16:27 -0600, Robert Rolf wrote:
> What about calling the station you're listening to, and
> asking them to put in the delay for game broadcasts?
> They already have the hardware if they have any
> sort of live phone in show, and you could use the argument
> that this would get them more listeners since they'd then be
> in sync with the video telecasts of their TV competitors.

I don't see that as feasible since the TV delay isn't uniform. It
depends how that particular viewer gets their TV. Somebody catching the
station over the air will have a smaller delay then those with cable,
and cable users will have less delay then those with satellite.

Heck, different satellite companies will have different delays.

TTYL

-----------------------------
Herbert's PIC Stuff:
http://repatch.dyndns.org:8383/pic_stuff/

2005\09\02@134648 by Robert Rolf

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Herbert Graf wrote:

{Quote hidden}

And given your distance from the bird, even the same service will
have different delays, but I doubt that the human ear could detect it.

A long time ago there was a Radio Electronics article that used
analog bucket brigade delay lines. I doubt that they are made
anymore, but it is of historical note that before digital memory
was cheap, the analog domain was still useful.

R


2005\09\02@144942 by olin piclist

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Robert Rolf wrote:
> A long time ago there was a Radio Electronics article that used
> analog bucket brigade delay lines. I doubt that they are made
> anymore, but it is of historical note that before digital memory
> was cheap, the analog domain was still useful.

And back an even longer time ago, analog delay lines were used to store
digital information.  Some early computers used essentially long
transmission lines to store bits.  Some even stored bits as accoustic
signals on long rods.  This was back when a Kbyte was a lot of memory (and
before bloatware so that you could actually do meaningful things in a
Kbyte).


*****************************************************************
Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts
(978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com

2005\09\02@150310 by John Ferrell

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I sure don't want any part of a 5 second sonic delay line. The longest I
ever got involved with was 980 msec. and that was binary.

John Ferrell
http://DixieNC.US

{Original Message removed}

2005\09\02@151847 by David Van Horn

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> And back an even longer time ago, analog delay lines were used to
store
> digital information.  Some early computers used essentially long
> transmission lines to store bits.  Some even stored bits as accoustic
> signals on long rods.  This was back when a Kbyte was a lot of memory
(and
> before bloatware so that you could actually do meaningful things in a
> Kbyte).

I had a desktop calculator once, that used an acoustic delay line to
store things like that. Interesting design. It wrote numbers on a CRT,
and the whole thing used an amazingly small number of transistors. No
"IC"s at all.



2005\09\02@153822 by Howard Winter

face
flavicon
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Olin,

On Fri, 2 Sep 2005 14:50:37 -0400, Olin Lathrop wrote:

>...<
> And back an even longer time ago, analog delay lines were used to store
> digital information.  Some early computers used essentially long
> transmission lines to store bits.  

Known as "delay lines"...

> Some even stored bits as accoustic signals on long rods.

... and a common medium was a tube containing mercury, with pulses of "sound" injected at one end and read out
at the other.  Another technique was charges stored on a CRT screen, and most of these early storage methods
were volatile, and had to be refreshed regularly or the stored data decayed.  The advent of magnetic core
storage was something of a breakthrough because it was static. I once saw an ICL mainframe (which was old even
then in the mid 1970s) that could be powered-up and carry on where it left off, without any sort of boot
process, because its main memory was core, and still held the operating system, programs and data from when it
was last used.  Semiconductor memory isn't an unconditional improvement!  :-)

Whatever happened to "bubble memory", which in the 80's was going to take over from magnetic media?

> This was back when a Kbyte was a lot of memory (and
> before bloatware so that you could actually do meaningful things in a Kbyte).

Indeed - in the early 1970s I was an operator on an IBM mainframe with 96k of memory on which we ran the
operating system, spooling system, and three application programs at once, and it didn't even use Virtual
Storage - that 96k held it all at once!  We ran three companies' entire businesses on that, along with two
programming offices' development.  Mind you, compile/test cycles were at most two a day, so desk-checking your
coding was a Good Thing if you didn't want to waste a half or a whole day due to one little typing error.

Then there's disk storage - we had five wardrobe-sized cabinets that held one fifth of the amount of data that
I can now hide under my watch!

Tell that to kids today, and they won't believe you...  :-)

(/ "When I were a lad" mode)

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2005\09\02@154806 by N5DWI (ex-K5HOQ)

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David Van Horn wrote:

>I had a desktop calculator once, that used an acoustic delay line to
>store things like that. Interesting design. It wrote numbers on a CRT,
>and the whole thing used an amazingly small number of transistors. No
>"IC"s at all.
>
Could that have been a Friden desk calculator? Around 1969-1971?

I don't remember the model numbers, but I was selling those suckers
around that time -- $2295 for the straight four banger and $2495 for
the four banger with square root function added.   A real bargain !!!

Some few businesses could justify them, especially if they needed
the square root function, but a surprising number of high schools
also bought them.  [You know -- the bloated budgets gained from
runaway Los Angeles taxation. <grin>]

john

2005\09\02@164324 by David Van Horn

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> Could that have been a Friden desk calculator? Around 1969-1971?

I believe it was.

> I don't remember the model numbers, but I was selling those suckers
> around that time -- $2295 for the straight four banger and $2495 for
> the four banger with square root function added.   A real bargain !!!

Mine had the Sqrt



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