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'[EE] recommendations for trinocular rework microsc'
2011\11\10@113540 by Matt Rhys-Roberts

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We're looking for an ergonomic stereoscopic microscope with a monocular video camera port, that's comfortable for spending long hours of doing fine pitch rework at. The user should be sat upright, not peering into it with a bent neck.

Anybody recommend anything that's not too expensive please?

Regards,
Mat

2011\11\10@114906 by doug metzler

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I have been very happy with my boom-scope off ebay, similar to this
one (same company, different model)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/20X-40X-TRINOCULAR-SUPER-WF-STEREO-BOOM-MICROSCOPE-/170271668375?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27a4fb7897

Mine's only binocular and I got the extra big eyepieces and the
fluorescent light ring and it has saved my tired eyes...

DougM

On Thu, Nov 10, 2011 at 8:31 AM, Matt Rhys-Roberts <spam_OUTmattTakeThisOuTspamnu-ins.com> wrote:
> We're looking for an ergonomic stereoscopic microscope with a monocular
> video camera port, that's comfortable for spending long hours of doing
> fine pitch rework at. The user should be sat upright, not peering into
> it with a bent neck.
>
> Anybody recommend anything that's not too expensive please?
>
> Regards,
> Matt
>

2011\11\10@133641 by Richard Pytelewski

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If you want to look at the top choice for ergonomics, look at

www.directindustry.com/prod/vision-engineering/video-microscopes-5580
-455029.html

"MANTIS" Inspection 'Scopes...ergonomic +++ and not cheap

Regards,

Rich

{Original Message removed}

2011\11\10@142739 by Dwayne Reid

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At 09:31 AM 11/10/2011, Matt Rhys-Roberts wrote:
>We're looking for an ergonomic stereoscopic microscope with a monocular
>video camera port, that's comfortable for spending long hours of doing
>fine pitch rework at. The user should be sat upright, not peering into
>it with a bent neck.

My strong recommendation is to look at one of the Vision Engineering models.  These are often found on eBay for a fraction of their new cost.

I have a Vision Engineering Dynascope TS4 which came with a fiber-optic ring light and adjustable zoom from 6x to 40x.  It cost me (used) perhaps $500.

The real charm of these units is that they display the image on a screen that is in front of you.  No more holding your eyes over microscope eyepieces.

Some of these units have provision for mounting a TV camera but my TS4 does not.

My other microscope is what I call my "black and white microscope" - its actually an electronic microfiche reader with a gorgeous lens feeding a 1/2" B&W vidicon and displaying on a B&W 12" CRT monitor.  The lens / camera assembly is horizontal above the work surface with a 45 degree front-surface mirror providing the downward look.  Aside from the fact that its B&W, it works extremely well and I actually prefer it to the Dynascope.  The zoom control is not marked as to its range, but it looks pretty darned similar to the Dynascope: perhaps 6x or 8x to about 40x.

One of my 'round-to-it' projects is to marry that gorgeous lens assembly up to a modern CCD imager and use a modern LCD monitor with it.

One of the reasons that I like the B&W microscope so much is that the free-sliding table has adjustable drag brakes for both the H & V directions - and the table has so much movement range.  When using the microscope to hand-assemble SMD devices onto a PCB, the movable table is large enough for you to rest your wrists on.  That makes it comfortable.

I do have a conventional stereo microscope with a total magnification of (I think) 20x but I / we just don't use it anymore.  The other display-type microscopes are just too easy to use.

Finally, I saw a display-type microscope made by Sony at one of the electronics trade shows I attended a few years back.  It looked as if it used a CCD-type imager feeding a relatively small LCD display - perhaps 4" diagonal.  I didn't like it much - the image was noisy / grainy.  But they may have improved since then.

dwayne

-- Dwayne Reid   <.....dwaynerKILLspamspam@spam@planet.eon.net>
Trinity Electronics Systems Ltd    Edmonton, AB, CANADA
(780) 489-3199 voice          (780) 487-6397 fax
http://www.trinity-electronics.com
Custom Electronics Design and Manufacturing

2011\11\10@152351 by Sean Breheny

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How do you get binocular vision with a video display, though? I would
think that trying to solder under a microscope with a video display
would be more difficult than using a binocular microscope, since
depth-perception is important and many of the cues for it are lost
when viewing a monitor.

Sean


On Thu, Nov 10, 2011 at 2:27 PM, Dwayne Reid <dwaynerspamKILLspamplanet.eon.net> wrote:
> The real charm of these units is that they display the image on a
> screen that is in front of you.  No more holding your eyes over
> microscope eyepieces.
>

2011\11\10@155824 by doug metzler

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It's my personal opinion that the cameras are only good for teaching,
or perhaps for showing your boss where the problem is...

If you get your station setup correctly, which is to have the chair
much lower than you think it should be so that your back is almost
completely straight when your eyes are on the eyepieces, then you can
work for hours without trouble.

DougM

On Thu, Nov 10, 2011 at 12:23 PM, Sean Breheny <.....shb7KILLspamspam.....cornell.edu> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>

2011\11\10@160727 by Dwayne Reid

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You know, I don't know.

I don't have depth perception (long story about me being cross-eyed when very young and having multiple surgerys over a period of many years to fix it).  I tell distance using parallax - this actually makes me a very safe (conservative) driver.

I know for a fact that the B&W microscope can't offer any depth perception cues - its a single channel of vision.

But I ** THINK ** that the Vision Engineering scopes do offer depth perception.  Someone else who has used any of the Vision Engineering microscopes might jump in here and either confirm or deny that.  Actually, <http://www.visioneng.com/technology-dynascope-eyepieceless-microscope.php> says that the Dynascopes have a "smooth expanded-pupil stereo image with a generous depth of focus and a wide field of view".


My lack of depth perception doesn't seem to be an impediment to me when I assemble boards under a microscope.  Again - parallax to the rescue.

I really don't think about having or not having stereo vision - its something that I grew up with since before I could walk or talk, and my brain adapted using the tools that it had available.  In my case, two functioning eyes that it can turn on and off independently (deals with short distances) and movement causing parallax changes (longer distances).  One of the interesting side effects is that I can't tell which of two vehicles is closer to me unless my vehicle is moving.  Like I said above, that makes me a conservative and relatively safe driver.

dwayne


At 01:23 PM 11/10/2011, Sean Breheny wrote:
{Quote hidden}

-- Dwayne Reid   <@spam@dwaynerKILLspamspamplanet.eon.net>
Trinity Electronics Systems Ltd    Edmonton, AB, CANADA
(780) 489-3199 voice          (780) 487-6397 fax
http://www.trinity-electronics.com
Custom Electronics Design and Manufacturing

2011\11\10@181419 by Mark Rages

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On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 8:07 AM, Dwayne Reid <KILLspamdwaynerKILLspamspamplanet.eon.net> wrote:
> You know, I don't know.
>
> I don't have depth perception (long story about me being cross-eyed
> when very young and having multiple surgerys over a period of many
> years to fix it).  I tell distance using parallax - this actually
> makes me a very safe (conservative) driver.
>
> I know for a fact that the B&W microscope can't offer any depth
> perception cues - its a single channel of vision.
>
> But I ** THINK ** that the Vision Engineering scopes do offer depth
> perception.  Someone else who has used any of the Vision Engineering
> microscopes might jump in here and either confirm or deny
> that.  Actually,
> <www.visioneng.com/technology-dynascope-eyepieceless-microscope.php>
> says that the Dynascopes have a "smooth expanded-pupil stereo image
> with a generous depth of focus and a wide field of view".

I've used both the Mantis heads-up type of scope and the normal stereo
lab microscope.  They each have their strong points.

First, my neck.  The traditional microscope is easier on the neck.
"heads-up" means "ow, my neck" after a couple hours of use.  Adjusting
the chair and work height helps, but when my neck is comfortable I
feel like I'm holding the soldering iron up about shoulder level.
(I'm sure it's only a couple inches higher, but feels awkward after a
while.)

For soldering components, when I am concentrating on one section of
the board at a time, the smaller field of vision of the traditional
scope isn't a problem.  For general inspection tasks like looking for
cracks or solder blobs, the Mantis scope is far, far better.

You get more clearance above the work with the Mantis scope.  But it's
not a big difference.

I wear glasses, but I prefer to take them off when using the
traditional lab scope.  One eye piece is adjustable, which accomodates
the difference between my eyes.  The heads-up scope doesn't have this.
It requires/allows me to wear glasses with it.

Illumination is a big part of getting a good image.  For electronics
work, I like to have some shadows to see cracks and unevenness.
Super-flat illumination, like ring lights, is not really desirable for
this kind of work.

The video out is a kind of gimmick.  I've never seen one that had the
same magnification and focus depth as the built-in eyepieces.  So
don't expect others to look over your shoulder and see what you're
working on.  On the other hand, the USB webcam interface is quite
convenient for documenting solder problems for reports etc.
(Convenient, but image quality is lacking.  You actually get a clearer
image with a good still camera and lightbox, and cropping afterwards.)

-- Regards,
Mark
markrages@gmail

2011\11\10@201211 by Dwayne Reid

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At 04:14 PM 11/10/2011, Mark Rages wrote:

>I've used both the Mantis heads-up type of scope and the normal stereo
>lab microscope.  They each have their strong points.
>
>First, my neck.  The traditional microscope is easier on the neck.
>"heads-up" means "ow, my neck" after a couple hours of use.  Adjusting
>the chair and work height helps, but when my neck is comfortable I
>feel like I'm holding the soldering iron up about shoulder level.
>(I'm sure it's only a couple inches higher, but feels awkward after a while.)

I actually find the opposite, particularly when I'm working with my B&W microscope.  I get a sore neck if I have to spend more than an hour using the traditional lab stereo microscope, whereas I'm good for all day when sitting in front of that CRT monitor.

It did take a little while getting used to looking straight ahead instead of looking down but that was a pretty short short learning curve.


>Illumination is a big part of getting a good image.  For electronics
>work, I like to have some shadows to see cracks and
>unevenness.  Super-flat illumination, like ring lights, is not
>really desirable for this kind of work.

I've got 3 different ring lights - two of them are the standard circular florescent bulb, the 3rd is the fiber-optic ring light that is a permanent part of the Dynascope.  All work very well for me - much better than the couple of focused spotlights that I used to use with the lab scope before I broke down and bought the ring lights.  The B&W microscope has a pair of straight florescent lamps (one on either side of the lens assembly) that run from front to back - they also provide flat, even illumination.


I highly suspect that this is another of those situations where different tools and techniques work for different people.  For example, only two of us here at work use the B&W microscope, the others prefer the Dynascope.  One die-hard grabs the lab microscope whenever he has to do any SMD stuff.


>The video out is a kind of gimmick.  I've never seen one that had
>the same magnification and focus depth as the built-in
>eyepieces.  So don't expect others to look over your shoulder and
>see what you're working on.  On the other hand, the USB webcam
>interface is quite convenient for documenting solder problems for
>reports etc.  (Convenient, but image quality is lacking.  You
>actually get a clearer image with a good still camera and lightbox,
>and cropping afterwards.)

The video out (NTSC) on the B&W microscope is an exact replica of what's on the CRT <grin>.  I haven't used a Dynascope that has the extra camera port, so I can't even guess what it shows.


The Mantis microscope is a much more modern version of the Dynascope with a much more modern price ($$$).  I've used them several times when visiting other shops but I find that I prefer the variable zoom that the Dynascope offers, rather than having to switch in different lenses.  I do think that the image is slightly better on the Mantis, though..

dwayne

-- Dwayne Reid   <RemoveMEdwaynerTakeThisOuTspamplanet.eon.net>
Trinity Electronics Systems Ltd    Edmonton, AB, CANADA
(780) 489-3199 voice          (780) 487-6397 fax
http://www.trinity-electronics.com
Custom Electronics Design and Manufacturing

2011\11\11@041529 by alan.b.pearce

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> Illumination is a big part of getting a good image.  For electronics work, I like to
> have some shadows to see cracks and unevenness.
> Super-flat illumination, like ring lights, is not really desirable for this kind of
> work.

Agree about the illumination - you cannot have too much of it ...

At a trade show here recently there was a guy with a ring light where each LED could be independently lit. It had various modes of operation - all on, 3/4 of ring lit, half lit, 1/4 lit, and rotating dark spot which I think was the 3/4 lit with the gap moving around the circle. All the modes had their good points, and all the partial lit modes you could change where the dark spot was. It was very effective when looking at an SMD PCB.


-- Scanned by iCritical.

2011\11\11@083815 by Matt Rhys-Roberts

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Thanks to everyone who replied to my question so far, we now have a few more ideas to play with.

Much obliged

Matt Rhys-Robert

2011\11\11@172851 by cdb

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::We're looking for an ergonomic stereoscopic microscope with a monocular
::video camera port

You are looking for something similar to the Leica S6D with vision (without vision the S4E), though probably not at Leica prices. Olympus equivalents might be cheaper especially if you have access to a university for purchasing purposes.

I'm trying to rack my brains to recall a model that was originally designed for haematology slides and ran on a little Linux box - I'm pretty sure it was Leica and a model that they never advertised publicly, anyhow it would be ideal for PCB work.

There is a Chinese company who make reasonable equivalents with camera and software included - they aim at the secondary school market, but have quite good optics - and again my brain refuses to recall their name (2008 was so long ago).

You don't need a 'scope with baselight but either ring or fibre light source.

Something along these lines would work http://www.proscitech.com.au/cataloguex/online.asp?page=o8

Colin
--
cdb, spamBeGonecolinspamBeGonespambtech-online.co.uk on 12/11/2011
Web presence: http://www.btech-online.co.uk   Hosted by:  http://www.justhost.com.au
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2011\11\12@003801 by Mohit (Lists)

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cdb wrote:
> There is a Chinese company who make reasonable equivalents with camera and
> software included - they aim at the secondary school market, but have quite
> good optics - and again my brain refuses to recall their name (2008 was so
> long ago).
Motic?
http://www.motic.com/Products.aspx?r=AP&lang=en&id=25

Alternative: Labomed Microscopes (India).
www.laboeurope.com/en/products/stereo/csm2.htm
They are OEM for some of Leica's educational and clinical microscopes. So quality is good.

Regards,
Mohit.

2011\11\12@005618 by cdb

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On Sat, 12 Nov 2011 11:07:53 +0530, Mohit (Lists) wrote:
:: Motic?
:: http://www.motic.com/Products.aspx?r=AP&lang=en&id=25

Ah yes, I think they are the one.

Colin
--
cdb, TakeThisOuTcolinEraseMEspamspam_OUTbtech-online.co.uk on 12/11/2011
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