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'[EE] question for anyone on CADsoft EAGLE 4.11'
2004\12\09@132246 by J. Gromlich

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face
Greetings:

I have been using Eagle 4.11 for about 1 year now, having come to it from Mentor Graphics rather more
expensive tools, and have run into this problem a couple of times before.  Previously I was doing everything in-house and this didn't matter, but this time I have to send the design out to a fab house and I will have to resolve it.

The problem is a mixture of measures (inches vs mm).
My design is dimensioned in inches (0.001 actually) but
one of the parts I got from the library has Metric (mm)
dimensions, as I just discovered, on two mounting holes.
This causes the EXCELLON generator utility in CAD to
fail, since it can't find the 4 metric hole sizes in an
otherwise US (inch) file.  If I reverse the .drl file parameter and specify mm it finds the four mounting holes,
but fails because it can't find any of the 400 or so inch holes.

Is there any way to fix this without going into the library
and creating a whole new connector with inch dimensions?
And then having to change the parts on the PCB from the old metric version to a new inch version?  I really don't want to have to do that if there is an alternative.

This is rather a PITA - any help will be greatly appreciated.

Roy J. Gromlich  -  Senior Engineer
Renaissance Technologies
5000 Ritter Road  2nd Floor
Mechanicsburg, PA 17055
717-691-7090


 
___________________________________________

2004\12\09@150220 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> The problem is a mixture of measures (inches vs mm).
> My design is dimensioned in inches (0.001 actually) but
> one of the parts I got from the library has Metric (mm)
> dimensions, as I just discovered, on two mounting holes.
> This causes the EXCELLON generator utility in CAD to
> fail, since it can't find the 4 metric hole sizes in an
> otherwise US (inch) file.  If I reverse the .drl file
> parameter and specify mm it finds the four mounting holes,
> but fails because it can't find any of the 400 or so inch holes.

Why not add the metric holes to the drill file (expressed in inches, of
course)?

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


____________________________________________

2004\12\09@152756 by olin_piclist

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Wouter van Ooijen wrote:
>> The problem is a mixture of measures (inches vs mm).
>> My design is dimensioned in inches (0.001 actually) but
>> one of the parts I got from the library has Metric (mm)
>> dimensions, as I just discovered, on two mounting holes.
>> This causes the EXCELLON generator utility in CAD to
>> fail, since it can't find the 4 metric hole sizes in an
>> otherwise US (inch) file.  If I reverse the .drl file
>> parameter and specify mm it finds the four mounting holes,
>> but fails because it can't find any of the 400 or so inch holes.
>
> Why not add the metric holes to the drill file (expressed in inches, of
> course)?

That solves part of the problem.  Everything will be in inches, but the
board house may not be happy.

You have to know up front whether your board house will do holes in inches
or mm.  Most will do inches, or if they use mm will convert automatically
from the inches values.  Except Olimex that is.  They don't seem to know how
to multiply by 25.4, and are rather uppity about it.

I specify all my holes in inches from a limited set of "standard" hole
sizes.  Even when making a library part that is specified in mm, I find the
smalles inch-scale drill size that meets the needs.  This is what most board
houses want anyway.  The metric board houses (except Olimex) will usually
substitute a mm equivalent within the tolerance.  You should generally
assume that your finished hole size will be +-.004 inches off from what you
specify.


*****************************************************************
Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts
(978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com
____________________________________________

2004\12\09@164554 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> Most will do inches, or if they use mm will convert
> automatically
> from the inches values.  Except Olimex that is.  They don't
> seem to know how
> to multiply by 25.4, and are rather uppity about it.

So far when dealing with Olimex I just send them the .brd file and they
make the PCB with the holes as specified (IIRC they interpret hole size
as drill size, which can be a PITA for very small holes). Am I missing
anything?

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


____________________________________________

2004\12\09@172333 by olin_piclist

face picon face
Wouter van Ooijen wrote:
> So far when dealing with Olimex I just send them the .brd file

Yes, I could make a set of files that are compatible with Olimex's
requirements.  The point is, I shouldn't have to and won't.  I'm a bit
uncomfortable sending out my Eagle BRD files.  I guess it feels a little
like giving out source code, but I know it's not the same thing.  There is
an industry wide standard called Gerber files and Execellon drill files.
Every single other board house in the world I've ever dealt with (and I've
dealt with a few) was able to take the standard package of Gerber and
Excellon files in a ZIP file.  This is what I produce out of Eagle, partly
using automated scripts.  I shouldn't have to go out of my way to do
something different for one uppity board house that doesn't get it.

> and
> they make the PCB with the holes as specified (IIRC they interpret
> hole size as drill size, which can be a PITA for very small holes).
> Am I missing anything?

No, that seems to sum it up.  I shouldn't have to know about the board
house's process to specify holes.  It makes sense for me to specify the
finished hole size, and for the board house to compensate accordingly
knowing its own process.

It's completely beyond me why Olimex can't take the same information
everyone else does and produce boards from it.  All they have to do is run a
program that multiplies by 25.4 to convert to mm, add on 2x whatever plating
thickness they use, then pick the nearest size drill.  This process should
yield a finished hole according to the original specification within some
tolerance that they could publish, just like a real board house.  Not only
do they not do this, but when you send them a package that doesn't adhere to
their unusual standards, they are very uppity about it and treat you like an
idiot for not checking their web site before wasting their time.  No thanks.


*****************************************************************
Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts
(978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com
____________________________________________

2004\12\09@232231 by Roy J. Gromlich

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Just as general info - I went to the Library and made copies of the two
connectors, changed the holes to inches, and saved them under new
names.  Changed the part definition in the schematic and the layout
editor put the new connectors onto the layout for me. A few minutes
work actually - Eagle does have some nice features.

Roy

{Original Message removed}

2004\12\09@232906 by Roy J. Gromlich

picon face
Thank you for this information on Olimex - I didn't realize they had
"issues"
with dimensions.  I had been considering using them as an experiment, but
this suggests it would be time wasted.  I agree totally with Wouter - I have
dealt with many board houses and never had the kind of problems you are
describing.  There have been issues of misunderstood tolerance or
clearance limits, but nothing about simple metric conversions.

Ah well - -
Roy

{Original Message removed}

2004\12\10@015825 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face
On Dec 9, 2004, at 8:22 PM, Roy J. Gromlich wrote:

>>>> This causes the EXCELLON generator utility in CAD to
>>>> fail, since it can't find the 4 metric hole sizes in an
>>>> otherwise US (inch) file.

Which cam job are you using?  When I output using eagle2ccam, there's
a "tolerance" for drill sizes (defaults to +/-2%, I think) that serves
nicely to translate the inch drill numbers to the nearest metric sizes
(or vis versa.)  It looks like you can get this by specifying
EXCELLON_RACK
for the output device rather than just EXCELLON...

BillW

____________________________________________

2004\12\10@043335 by Allen Wayne

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I've just used Olimex.... And would use them again.. Excellent service and
good quality

Wayne

-----Original Message-----
From: Roy J. Gromlich [spam_OUTrgromlichTakeThisOuTspampa.net]
Sent: 10 December 2004 04:29
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
Subject: Re: [EE] question for anyone on CADsoft EAGLE 4.11


Thank you for this information on Olimex - I didn't realize they had
"issues" with dimensions.  I had been considering using them as an
experiment, but this suggests it would be time wasted.  I agree totally with
Wouter - I have dealt with many board houses and never had the kind of
problems you are describing.  There have been issues of misunderstood
tolerance or clearance limits, but nothing about simple metric conversions.

Ah well - -
Roy

----- Original Message -----
From: "Olin Lathrop" <.....olin_piclistKILLspamspam@spam@embedinc.com>
To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <piclistspamKILLspammit.edu>
Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 5:23 PM
Subject: Re: [EE] question for anyone on CADsoft EAGLE 4.11


{Quote hidden}

plating
> thickness they use, then pick the nearest size drill.  This process
> should yield a finished hole according to the original specification
> within some tolerance that they could publish, just like a real board
> house.  Not only do they not do this, but when you send them a package
> that doesn't adhere
to
> their unusual standards, they are very uppity about it and treat you
> like
an
> idiot for not checking their web site before wasting their time.  No
thanks.
>
>
> *****************************************************************
> Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts
> (978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com
> ______________________________________________

2004\12\10@045234 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>Thank you for this information on Olimex - I didn't
>realize they had "issues" with dimensions.  I had
>been considering using them as an experiment, but
>this suggests it would be time wasted.

Well I suspect this depends on precisely what you think you are ordering. I
do not know what Olin was ordering, BUT if you want the Euro card
prototyping service at the very good price, then YOU are expected to read
their website carefully and stick to the track width/spacing and drill sizes
set out there. If you do not stick to these requirements then I suspect your
boards get stuck in a different queue than the prototype line which has the
limited facilities which allow a quick turn around.


I have a couple of boards that I am going to try with them shortly, and have
been very careful to stay within these requirements. I will be interested to
see how it goes, as they do give a very short delivery time on the Eurocard
proto service, where other "cheap" proto services seem to accumulate such
bits until they have enough to do a full panel of PCB material, which could
take a number of weeks, where Olimex is giving a turn round within a week.

____________________________________________

2004\12\10@052542 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
>   I agree totally with
> Wouter - I have dealt with many board houses and never had the kind of
> problems you are describing.  

I think you mean Olin. I am the one that just sends his Eagle .brd file
and gets back his PCBs without any problem. This might be due to the
fact that Olimex was the first boardhouse I ever used.

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


____________________________________________

2004\12\10@055751 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face

On Dec 10, 2004, at 1:52 AM, Alan B. Pearce wrote:

>> Thank you for this information on Olimex - I didn't
>> realize they had "issues" with dimensions.

> Well I suspect this depends on precisely what you think you are
> ordering.

The big difficulty seems to be their being incompatible with "industry
standards" WRT drill size vs finished hole size.  I can see how that
would
be annoying if you're dealing with multiple board vendors, but I don't
think
it's fatal by any means.  (OTOH, their minimum hole size is pretty big,
too.)

Olin complaining about vendors getting annoyed at him for not having
read
their web site carefully enough is mildly amusing :-)  But I'm inclined
to
agree with him; if Olimex claims to accept Eagle .BRD files, they ought
to
be willing to automatically deal with translating from the default Eagle
libraries and settings to the Olimex layout standards.

BillW
____________________________________________

2004\12\10@084053 by J. Gromlich

flavicon
face
BillW:

I have been running the CAD utility and simply selecting the EXCELLON output device.  I will give that _RACK variant a try to see what it does.  Thanks.

Roy



___________________________________________

2004\12\10@152949 by Peter L. Peres

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On Thu, 9 Dec 2004, Wouter van Ooijen wrote:

>> The problem is a mixture of measures (inches vs mm).
>> My design is dimensioned in inches (0.001 actually) but
>> one of the parts I got from the library has Metric (mm)
>> dimensions, as I just discovered, on two mounting holes.
>> This causes the EXCELLON generator utility in CAD to
>> fail, since it can't find the 4 metric hole sizes in an
>> otherwise US (inch) file.  If I reverse the .drl file
>> parameter and specify mm it finds the four mounting holes,
>> but fails because it can't find any of the 400 or so inch holes.
>
> Why not add the metric holes to the drill file (expressed in inches, of
> course)?

or redo the library part with inch equivalents of the metric holes.

Peter
____________________________________________

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