Searching \ for '[EE] pcb eching tank. I find a perfect one' in subject line. ()
Make payments with PayPal - it's fast, free and secure! Help us get a faster server
FAQ page: www.piclist.com/techref/pcbs.htm?key=pcb
Search entire site for: 'pcb eching tank. I find a perfect one'.

Exact match. Not showing close matches.
PICList Thread
'[EE] pcb eching tank. I find a perfect one'
2005\05\31@105205 by rosoftwarecontrol

flavicon
face
have a look what I find, from garage:
a bottle heater, 300W and 50 to 110C temperature setting.
full plastic and heating surface is taflon

http://www.webjb.org/pub/img/05133/000_0964.JPG



next thing is how to make fluid mxing. I think over and over, made a conclusion:
mechanical shaking is the easiest way.
I need to build a shaking table, that all.

2005\05\31@111740 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>have a look what I find, from garage:
>a bottle heater, 300W and 50 to 110C temperature setting.
>full plastic and heating surface is taflon
>
>http://www.webjb.org/pub/img/05133/000_0964.JPG

Hmm, what diameter is it? I'm just wondering what size bottle it was
designed to heat. Unless making very small PCBs all the time, I suspect it
would be a bit small for many things.


>next thing is how to make fluid mxing.
>I think over and over, made a conclusion:
>mechanical shaking is the easiest way.
>I need to build a shaking table, that all.

Put some plastic hose in the bottom and bubble air through it? May be easier
than having a shaking table.

2005\05\31@114212 by rosoftwarecontrol

flavicon
face
it is for child's milk bottle.
It is designed as heating water, then
water heating bottle.

I only make small pcb, <100mm long.

air bubbling? I will try and need
to find a air fan. what kind fan
will do?







{Original Message removed}

2005\05\31@120859 by Dave VanHorn

flavicon
face
At 11:43 AM 5/31/2005, microsoftwarecontrol wrote:
>it is for child's milk bottle.
>It is designed as heating water, then
>water heating bottle.
>
>I only make small pcb, <100mm long.
>
>air bubbling? I will try and need
>to find a air fan. what kind fan
>will do?

You'll need a pump, the sort that you would use with fish in an aquarium.
They also sell the air stones and tubing that you'll need.

2005\05\31@121247 by Mark Scoville

flavicon
face
Maybe try using a small aquarium air pump to make bubbles. Something like
this...

http://www.petguys.com/-015561108020.html

-- Mark

> {Original Message removed}

2005\05\31@121545 by Johan Baarman

picon face
microsoftwarecontrol wrote:

>air bubbling? I will try and need
>to find a air fan. what kind fan
>will do?
>  
>

I've used air pumps for small aquariums with great result. They seem to
pump enough air for small etching tanks and are cheap too.


2005\05\31@122823 by mrgizmo

flavicon
face
I use an aquarium air pump and a bubble wall, I also use an aquarium heater
and a dollarama container.


{Original Message removed}

2005\05\31@122831 by phil B

picon face
I had the need of an etch tank and all the
off-the-shelf units were .5 or 1 Gallon.  I really did
not want that much etchant to deal with so I made a
tank out of acrylic sheet material.  It holds a 8"x6"
board, an aquarium heater and hose bubbler while only
requiring 1 quart of etchant.  Perfect.  

I used fusing cement from TAP
www.tapplastics.com/shop/product.php?pid=130&
and it came out great.  Others have said "bad idea"
the etchant will attack the acrylic but I leave the
etchant (ammonium persulfate) in the tank and over 9
months, there hasn't been a single problem.  I believe
that CuCl etchant will be more agressive against
acrylic, though.

Phil

--- "Alan B. Pearce" <spam_OUTA.B.PearceTakeThisOuTspamrl.ac.uk> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> --

2005\05\31@125436 by Peter

picon face


On Tue, 31 May 2005, microsoftwarecontrol wrote:

> it is for child's milk bottle.
> It is designed as heating water, then
> water heating bottle.
>
> I only make small pcb, <100mm long.
>
> air bubbling? I will try and need
> to find a air fan. what kind fan
> will do?

$5 aquarium pump from pet shop

Peter

2005\05\31@135339 by Debbie

flavicon
face
I just use a large plastic photographic tray & conc FeCl3. Rock it gently back
& forth by hand - takes ~40 minutes @ room temp. Wear rubber gloves! Debbie.

> > I only make small pcb, <100mm long.
> >
> > air bubbling? I will try and need
> > to find a air fan. what kind fan
> > will do?

Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies.
http://au.movies.yahoo.com

2005\05\31@150936 by PicDude

flavicon
face
On Tuesday 31 May 2005 12:53 pm, Debbie scribbled:
> I just use a large plastic photographic tray & conc FeCl3. Rock it gently
> back & forth by hand - takes ~40 minutes @ room temp. Wear rubber gloves!
> Debbie.


If you add a small hair-dryer on low setting pointed to this tray, it'll speed
up this process significantly, since it adds both heat and agitation --
~15-20 mins.  Lay a large plastic cover (such as a garbage bag) on your table
first in case any drops fly.

Cheers,
-Neil.



2005\05\31@152113 by PicDude

flavicon
face
On Tuesday 31 May 2005 10:52 am, microsoftwarecontrol scribbled:
> have a look what I find, from garage:
> a bottle heater, 300W and 50 to 110C temperature setting.
> full plastic and heating surface is taflon
>
> www.webjb.org/pub/img/05133/000_0964.JPG
> ...

I guess "perfect" is different for everyone.  My idea of perfect would be a
clear container which has a width and height as big as I would need to make
boards, but only 1" thick.  This way the board stays vertical.  Then increase
the width a bit to hold an aquarium heater and an aquarium air pump.  Simple,
low-cost and gets the job done well.  Drill a hole in the corner of the board
first and secure a nylon wire tie thru it so it can be pulled out easily.

Cheers,
-Neil.



2005\05\31@165942 by Ben Hencke

picon face
On 5/31/05, Debbie <.....cyberia429-piclistKILLspamspam@spam@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> I just use a large plastic photographic tray & conc FeCl3. Rock it gently back
> & forth by hand - takes ~40 minutes @ room temp. Wear rubber gloves! Debbie.

Yes, wear gloves. I got that stuff in a small cut on my finger once, ouch. :-(
I have tried hair blow driers, but that doesnt seem to work too well.
Best result I've had was floating the whole container in a larger
container filled with hot water. It also helps with spills.
- Ben

2005\05\31@171519 by Spehro Pefhany

picon face
At 01:59 PM 5/31/2005 -0700, you wrote:
>On 5/31/05, Debbie <cyberia429-piclistspamKILLspamyahoo.com.au> wrote:
> > I just use a large plastic photographic tray & conc FeCl3. Rock it
> gently back
> > & forth by hand - takes ~40 minutes @ room temp. Wear rubber gloves!
> Debbie.
>
>Yes, wear gloves. I got that stuff in a small cut on my finger once, ouch. :-(
>I have tried hair blow driers, but that doesnt seem to work too well.
>Best result I've had was floating the whole container in a larger
>container filled with hot water. It also helps with spills.
>- Ben

Last time I did it, I nuked the whole (plastic) container to get the
temperature up. In an old microwave not used for food, of course, though
I don't think the ferric chloride is all that bad for you (tastes terrible)
unless you ingest enough to get iron poisoning (liver damage, death etc.).

Best regards,

Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..."            "The Journey is the reward"
.....speffKILLspamspam.....interlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com
->> Inexpensive test equipment & parts http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZspeff


2005\05\31@172651 by mrgizmo

flavicon
face
I prefer using Ammonium Persulfate, its non-staining and has little odor.
Also turns green as it weakens.

{Original Message removed}

2005\05\31@173306 by Jinx

face picon face

> I just use a large plastic photographic tray & conc FeCl3. Rock it gently
> back & forth by hand - takes ~40 minutes @ room temp. Wear rubber
> gloves! Debbie.

Debbie, I'm not a big fan of long cold etch times, mostly because the
etchant
has time to get under etch-resist and make breaks or fuzzy tracks

The simplest fix is a hot water jacket. Etch time will be 6-7 minutes

http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/joecolquitt/0makepcb.html

Also, float the board upside-down and you won't need to rock it either
(you'd not considered a little motor to do the rocking ?). Better if you do
this with GRP stock as you can see the tracks form. Not so easy to see
through phenolic unless you have illumination from below. Every now
and then decant cold etchant and run it through a filter. Paper is OK, eg
coffee filter, kitchen towel

2005\05\31@180003 by Philip Pemberton

face picon face
In message <EraseME5.1.1.5.2.20050531171753.01e95428spam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTmail.interlog.com>>          Spehro Pefhany <speffspamspam_OUTinterlog.com> wrote:

> I don't think the ferric chloride is all that bad for you (tastes terrible)
> unless you ingest enough to get iron poisoning (liver damage, death etc.).

"A fatal case of acute ferric chloride poisoning"
Tinyurl: <http://tinyurl.com/dhyur>
(<http://toxnet.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/sis/search/f?./temp/~V8m6v1:5>)

One other thing worth noting is that most premixed etching-grade FeCl has
hydrochloric acid added - it's used as an anti-sludging agent IIRC.
 
Anyway, I'm using a 3-litre (IIRC) polypropylene cereal container as an etch
tank. There's a bubbler Araldited into the bottom and an aquarium heater
fitted to one side. I had loads of trouble with "Combi Heater" branded
heaters breaking - three DOA, 100% failure rate. I've got a Visi-Therm now,
which seems to be OK. It's only 25W though; in hindsight I should probably
have bought something a bit bigger.
 
Word of warning: test the heater in water first. I doubt you'd get a
replacement heater if you tried to take back a dead heater that was covered
in FeCl stains :)
 
Later.
--
Phil.                              | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB,
@spam@philpemKILLspamspamphilpem.me.uk              | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice,
http://www.philpem.me.uk/          | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI
... A closed mouth gathers no feet

2005\05\31@212232 by Spehro Pefhany

picon face
At 10:56 PM 5/31/2005 +0100, you wrote:
>In message <KILLspam5.1.1.5.2.20050531171753.01e95428KILLspamspammail.interlog.com>> >           Spehro Pefhany <RemoveMEspeffTakeThisOuTspaminterlog.com> wrote:
>
> > I don't think the ferric chloride is all that bad for you (tastes terrible)
> > unless you ingest enough to get iron poisoning (liver damage, death etc.).
>
>"A fatal case of acute ferric chloride poisoning"
>Tinyurl: <http://tinyurl.com/dhyur>
>(<http://toxnet.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/sis/search/f?./temp/~V8m6v1:5>)

She drank 200ml of the stuff, not just traces on the fingertips!

Here's an MSDS

http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/f1080.htm

"Low systemic toxicity in small quantities but..."


{Quote hidden}

The stuff is a killer for any kind of precision machine tools- results in a
thin layer of rust on everything made of tool steel.

>Best regards,

Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..."            "The Journey is the reward"
spamBeGonespeffspamBeGonespaminterlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com
->> Inexpensive test equipment & parts http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZspeff


2005\05\31@220808 by rosoftwarecontrol

flavicon
face
Exactly, what I think also.

I bought silicon glue already and tested as perfect
for 50C. Then just need to find glass.
inside this book shaped container, there are supporting
structure that make all pcb under etching stand up.
Supporting structure should has apperance, like
pc cpu heat sink. Container size should be letter paper.

As air bubbling mixing, I am suspisious about uneven.
mechanical shaking is the best way to mixing. Shaking,
or titling, are same. So, I will build a titling
table, instead difficult shaking table.

For heating. I remember there are a kind of
kitchen dish warmer, built of glass with heating
wire printed underneath.

Today, I tried aqurium air pump. air flow
very low. I returned the one I bought and
using a Weller heat station, that has
better and quieter air pump.

My perfect book shaped etching unit,
will be still build later.





{Original Message removed}

2005\05\31@223622 by Debbie

flavicon
face

--- Jinx <TakeThisOuTjoecolquittEraseMEspamspam_OUTclear.net.nz> wrote:> Debbie, I'm not a big fan of long
cold etch times, mostly because the
> etchant
> has time to get under etch-resist and make breaks or fuzzy tracks
>
> The simplest fix is a hot water jacket. Etch time will be 6-7 minutes
>
> http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/joecolquitt/0makepcb.html

That's true - a long etch is no good for fine tracks. I tend to keep them
>1.2mm width if possible. Re the other posts, about FeCl3's hazards, I had a
similar disaster with rust one time. It was a REALLY hot day, like ~45C, and I
left the stuff in an open container. When I got back, there was rust on
everything nearby that was made of steel. I think what happens is the
FeCl3/water mix slowly releases HCl when hot. Bad news => good ventilation is
indicated? The grot that forms on storage is probably Fe(OH)3. If you acidify
the solution with HCl, it should disappear.

One hazard that med. page did not mention is if you drop aluminium into conc
FeCl3, the reaction is HIGHLY exothermic and you'll have boiling fizzy etchant
splattering everywhere in short order. If you do electronics metalwork, there's
usually no shortage of Al offcuts around the place ...
Debbie :)

Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies.
http://au.movies.yahoo.com

2005\05\31@233719 by Jinx

face picon face
> everything nearby that was made of steel. I think what happens is the
> FeCl3/water mix slowly releases HCl when hot.

Also FeCl is very hygroscopic and spilt powder and FeCl fumes will
attract water like nobody's business and rot any iron in the area

http://www.answers.com/topic/ferric-chloride


'[EE] pcb eching tank. I find a perfect one'
2005\06\01@043606 by Alan B. Pearce
face picon face
>(you'd not considered a little motor to do the rocking ?).

Ah, now that brings back memories of doing the PSSC Physics course at
secondary school. Large flat water tanks with motor and eccentric weight to
make waves in the water ...

2005\06\01@044114 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>Anyway, I'm using a 3-litre (IIRC) polypropylene cereal container
>as an etch tank. There's a bubbler Araldited into the bottom and
>an aquarium heater fitted to one side. I had loads of trouble with
>"Combi Heater" branded heaters breaking - three DOA, 100% failure
>rate. I've got a Visi-Therm now, which seems to be OK. It's only 25W
>though; in hindsight I should probably have bought something a bit bigger.

I would be tempted to glue or tape some slabs of polystyrene sheet, anything
up to an inch thick, to the outside of the cereal container to stop heat
loss. If you want to see how the etch is going a 2 or 3 inch window in one
slab of the polystyrene would probably be sufficient without compromising
the thermal insulation to any noticeable extent.

2005\06\01@044613 by Jinx

face picon face

> >(you'd not considered a little motor to do the rocking ?).
>
> Ah, now that brings back memories of doing the PSSC Physics
> course at secondary school. Large flat water tanks with motor and
> eccentric weight to make waves in the water ...

Blinds down, light bulbs, diffraction gratings ?

2005\06\01@053719 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>> Ah, now that brings back memories of doing the PSSC Physics
>> course at secondary school. Large flat water tanks with motor and
>> eccentric weight to make waves in the water ...
>
>Blinds down, light bulbs, diffraction gratings ?

Yeah, all that, making a lens with a shape under water, interference
patterns with two motors at varying phases and speeds, all real "hands on"
illustrative experimentation. Thems were the days.

2005\06\01@060301 by Jinx

face picon face
> >Blinds down, light bulbs, diffraction gratings ?
>
> Yeah, all that, making a lens with a shape under water,
> interference patterns with two motors at varying phases and
> speeds, all real "hands on" illustrative experimentation. Thems
> were the days

Oh yeah, all good fun. Guess you've seen the "That'll Teach 'em"
series ?

I found out a couple of weeks ago that my 4th & 5th form physics
teacher from the UK in the 70s now lives in Hamilton. Small world.
Realising now that he's actually not that much older than me takes
a little getting used to

2005\06\01@074259 by John Ferrell

face picon face
I scrounged a kitchen crockpot that had a broken insert. It is large enough
to put a small container inside. I have not tried it for etching, I use it
to clean disassembled model airplane engines. It ought to work well here.

BTW, I do this sort of thing in the back yard, not indoors!

John Ferrell
http://DixieNC.US

{Original Message removed}

2005\06\01@093117 by Peter

picon face


On Tue, 31 May 2005, Johan Baarman wrote:

{Quote hidden}

 just keep in mind that the bursting bubbles carry FeCl3. Use a lid.

Peter

2005\06\01@111013 by Howard Winter

face
flavicon
picon face
Ferric Chloride fatality...

On Tue, 31 May 2005 21:27:34 -0400, Spehro Pefhany wrote:

> She drank 200ml of the stuff, not just traces on the fingertips!

Yes, 200ml of the solution, about half the size my usual cup of coffee, only 11.5g of actual Ferric Chloride -
that's probably only a couple of balls of it in the solid state - and they look a bit like sweets.  People
with children take note!

When I was about 14 or 15 I was etching a board in the kitchen (my mother was out :-) and on lifting one end
out of the tray to see if it was done, it slipped and dropped back, and a splashed drop hit me straight in the
eye.  I spun round in a bit of a panic as things started to feel a bit warm, then I told my self to calm down
and deal with it - made my way to the sink with one eye open, turned the cold tap on full, got a glass and
repeatedly filled it and threw it into my eye, opening the latter after a couple of goes to make sure it all
got washed out.  Did this for about five minutes.  No ill effects that I'm aware of!  (Very lucky, I know, but
that was in the days before things like safety goggles were even heard of, let alone available to schoolboys).

Cheers,



Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2005\06\01@120651 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> When I was about 14 or 15 I was etching a board in the
> kitchen (snip)

Ah, bold stories! When I was 15 my favourite receipt was to make teargas
from bromium and acetone. Making bromium with my primitive destillation
tools was a challenge, but I could do that without choking by working
mainly with my head outside the window. But then the bromium and acetone
(both liquids) had to be combined in precise amounts. I did this with a
pipette, sucking up each liquid up to the desired level. Bromium is not
as bad as chlorine, but in retrospect I still shudder with the idea that
it could have ended up in my mouth.

Many years before that (maybe 9y old) I wanted to etch PCBs. I had
figured out that I needed FeCl3. I could get my hands on Fe (iron wool),
HCl (that was still sold in supermarkets at that time), and HClO (common
toilet cleaner). So I created FeCl2 from iron wool and HCl, Cl2 from HCl
and HClO, and let that bubble through the FeCl2 solution. I guess some
of it indeed made FeCl3, but most of it ended up in my room. When my
parents noticed that my hair was falling off they stopped my in-house
experiments, and (knowing I could not be stopped for long) they bought
me a small caravan in the garden, in which I could continue my
experiments without poisoning anybody but myself. So I continued with
for instance the teargas.

Years after I had switched from chemistry to electronics my sister had a
girlfriend staying with her. They slept in the abandoned caravan. They
were a bit annoyed when after a few days holes appeared in the fabric of
some of their clothes.

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2005\06\02@085024 by John Ferrell

face picon face
Just curious: The word "caravan", is that what we might call a "trailer"?
Dad built me a 12'x12' out building for my workshop when I was about 12.
That got the rockets and gunpowder experiments out of the house. I was
always intrigued by acetylene gas myself!


John Ferrell
http://DixieNC.US

{Original Message removed}

2005\06\02@093806 by Mike Hord

picon face
> Just curious: The word "caravan", is that what we might call a "trailer"?
> Dad built me a 12'x12' out building for my workshop when I was about 12.
> That got the rockets and gunpowder experiments out of the house. I was
> always intrigued by acetylene gas myself!

Ayup.  Remember, Wouter learned "English" not "American"!

Mike H.

2005\06\02@094050 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>Just curious: The word "caravan", is that what we might call a "trailer"?

Yes, but in the Non-USA world a trailer is an item you tow behind a car to
carry home large lumber from the DIY store, or other loads too large to go
in a car.

Hence you can now feel totally confused. ;))

2005\06\02@101916 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> Ayup.  Remember, Wouter learned "English" not "American"!

I suggest that after the PIClist has agreed on
- the proper interpretation of EE
- the best language for programming PICs
- the best PIC for a beginner
- the best PIC programmer
- and of course the way the PIClist should be run
- and I almost forgot: what should be on a PIC experimenters PCB

that you English speakers agree on the meaning of each and every word?
and the pronounciation! and while you are busy, also on the proper units
for distance, volume etc? Maybe that will be just in time before
han-chinse takes over the internet :) What do the Chinese use to as
basic units anyway? The length and weight of a rice grain?

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2005\06\02@101917 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> Just curious: The word "caravan", is that what we might call
> a "trailer"?

Probably. I mean something like
http://static.marktplaats.nl/fotos/caravans/kip/10548.jpg (but it was a
much older 10-th hand thing).

> Dad built me a 12'x12' out building for my workshop when I
> was about 12.
> That got the rockets and gunpowder experiments out of the
> house.

I had the good sense to ignite my various KClO3 experiments just oustide
my window, on the lead slab that is supposed to keep the rain from
entering below the roof tiles. But molten lead does not function that
will in this respect, which might have contributed to the arrival of the
caravan :)

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu

2005\06\02@205344 by Howard Winter

face
flavicon
picon face
Wouter,

On Thu, 2 Jun 2005 16:19:16 +0200, Wouter van Ooijen wrote:

> > Ayup.  Remember, Wouter learned "English" not "American"!
>
> I suggest that after the PIClist has agreed on
>...<
> that you English speakers agree on the meaning of each and every word?

No chance!  English is a live language, so meanings are changing all the time, and new words are being
invented (and new meanings given to existing words).  Like "mobi" as an abbreviation for "mobile phone",
"text" used as a verb meaning "to send an SMS message", "ringtone" for "incredibly annoying sound for which
some moron paid money for the privilege of annoying the rest of us"...

> and the pronounciation!

No chance!  Pronunciation can vary geographically, with differences being noticeable with distances as short
as 20 miles (32km).  And over greater distances it can sound like a different language (try understanding a
"Geordie", from the North-East of England...

Cheers,




Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2005\06\02@211842 by Jinx

face picon face
(try understanding a "Geordie", from the North-East of England...

Like, I really want to have a deep meaningful discussion with Jimmy Nail
;-)))

Still, some of them oop north are on the ball

http://sethgodin.typepad.com/seths_blog/2005/03/death_plus_a_fi.html

Belt and braces, kicking a man when he's down, rubbing salt into the
wound.....

More... (looser matching)
- Last day of these posts
- In 2005 , 2006 only
- Today
- New search...