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'[EE] from your friends at EDN...'
2008\01\28@155528 by Dr Skip

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PIClist users beware...

The paper:
http://www.nuff.ox.ac.uk/users/gambetta/Engineers%20of%20Jihad.pdf

The EDN article:
http://www.edn.com/blog/1750000175/post/1030020903.html

Quote from the article in EDN:

Monday, January 28, 2008
EEs have terrorist mindset, Oxford University paper suggests

A sociology paper from the University of Oxford has suggested there is a tie
between the mindset of EEs and that of extreme Islamic terrorists.

The paper, titled “Engineers of Jihad,” was first published by the highly
accredited university in November and saw some major news outlets begin to pick
it up in January.

“We find that graduates from subjects such as science, engineering, and
medicine are strongly overrepresented among Islamist movements in the Muslim
world, though not among the extremist Islamic groups which have emerged in
Western countries more recently,” the paper’s abstract reads. “We also find
that engineers alone are strongly over-represented among graduates in violent
groups in both realms. This is all the more puzzling for engineers are
virtually absent from left-wing violent extremists and only present rather than
over-represented among right-wing extremists.”

It’s not technical skills, however, that draws engineers into terrorist groups,
according to the university research. Rather, the authors of the paper, Diego
Gambetta and Steffen Hertog, hypothesize that engineers have a “mindset” that
makes them a particularly good match for Islamism – one that makes engineers
“more radicalized” than people with other degrees.

....

The paper argues that engineers have “peculiar cognitive traits and
dispositions” and that engineers are among some of the most right-leaning
conservative thinking groups out there and are inclined to take more extreme
religious positions.

“We could thus hypothesize that personal dispositions and style of thinking
among engineers differ from those of students in other subjects in ways that
could make them more prone to become involved in violent forms of
radicalization, not just as willing recruits but as prime movers,” the paper
states, adding that its findings are not proof of its mindset theory.

...

Of the engineers the paper studies, electrical were the most common, followed
by computer-related.

2008\01\28@160608 by Rob Robson

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face
There goes our cover.

RR

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dr Skip" <spam_OUTdrskipTakeThisOuTspamgmail.com>
To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <.....piclistKILLspamspam@spam@mit.edu>
Sent: Monday, January 28, 2008 12:55 PM
Subject: [EE] from your friends at EDN...


PIClist users beware...

The paper:
http://www.nuff.ox.ac.uk/users/gambetta/Engineers%20of%20Jihad.pdf

The EDN article:
http://www.edn.com/blog/1750000175/post/1030020903.html

Quote from the article in EDN:

Monday, January 28, 2008
EEs have terrorist mindset, Oxford University paper suggests

A sociology paper from the University of Oxford has suggested there is a tie
between the mindset of EEs and that of extreme Islamic terrorists.

The paper, titled “Engineers of Jihad,” was first published by the highly
accredited university in November and saw some major news outlets begin to
pick
it up in January.

“We find that graduates from subjects such as science, engineering, and
medicine are strongly overrepresented among Islamist movements in the Muslim
world, though not among the extremist Islamic groups which have emerged in
Western countries more recently,” the paper’s abstract reads. “We also find
that engineers alone are strongly over-represented among graduates in
violent
groups in both realms. This is all the more puzzling for engineers are
virtually absent from left-wing violent extremists and only present rather
than
over-represented among right-wing extremists.”

It’s not technical skills, however, that draws engineers into terrorist
groups,
according to the university research. Rather, the authors of the paper,
Diego
Gambetta and Steffen Hertog, hypothesize that engineers have a “mindset”
that
makes them a particularly good match for Islamism – one that makes engineers
“more radicalized” than people with other degrees.

....

The paper argues that engineers have “peculiar cognitive traits and
dispositions” and that engineers are among some of the most right-leaning
conservative thinking groups out there and are inclined to take more extreme
religious positions.

“We could thus hypothesize that personal dispositions and style of thinking
among engineers differ from those of students in other subjects in ways that
could make them more prone to become involved in violent forms of
radicalization, not just as willing recruits but as prime movers,” the paper
states, adding that its findings are not proof of its mindset theory.

...

Of the engineers the paper studies, electrical were the most common,
followed
by computer-related.

2008\01\28@161118 by John Gardner

picon face
:)

Jack



On 1/28/08, Dr Skip <drskipspamKILLspamgmail.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>

2008\01\28@163756 by Apptech

face
flavicon
face
The paper argues that engineers have “peculiar cognitive
traits and
dispositions” and that engineers are among some of the most
right-leaning
conservative thinking groups out there and are inclined to
take more extreme
religious positions.

“We could thus hypothesize that personal dispositions and
style of thinking
among engineers differ from those of students in other
subjects in ways that
could make them more prone to become involved in violent
forms of
radicalization, not just as willing recruits but as prime
movers,” the paper
states, adding that its findings are not proof of its
mindset theory.

__________

I've heard it seriously suggested that Engineers fit
properly in the sequence

   "normal"* - Engineers - Asperger's Syndrome - Mild
Autism - Severe Autism.

Works for me :-)

See if you can recognise yourself to some degree in parts of
the description below :-).



       Russell

* Poor saps.

__________

http://www.aspergers.com/aspclin.htm

Asperger's Disorder is a milder variant of Autistic
Disorder.   Both Asperger's Disorder and Autistic Disorder
are in fact subgroups of a larger diagnostic category.  This
larger category is called either Autistic Spectrum
Disorders, mostly in European countries, or Pervasive
Developmental Disorders ("PDD"), in the United States.  In
Asperger's Disorder, affected individuals are characterized
by social isolation and eccentric behavior in childhood.
There are impairments in two-sided social interaction and
non-verbal communication. Though grammatical, their speech
may sound peculiar due to abnormalities of inflection and a
repetitive pattern. Clumsiness may be prominent both in
their articulation and gross motor behavior. They usually
have a circumscribed area of interest which usually leaves
no space for more age appropriate, common interests. Some
examples are cars, trains, French Literature, door knobs,
hinges, cappucino, meteorology, astronomy or history.  The
name "Asperger" comes from Hans Asperger, an Austrian
physician who first described the syndrome in 1944.  An
excellent translation of Dr. Asperger's original paper is
provided by Dr. Uta Frith in her Autism and Asperger
Syndrome.

2008\01\28@164358 by Chris Smolinski

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face
>The paper argues that engineers have ³peculiar cognitive
>traits and
>dispositions² and that engineers are among some of the most
>right-leaning
>conservative thinking groups out there and are inclined to
>take more extreme
>religious positions.
>

It is also possible that engineers end up being
more capable of building explosive devices than
goat herders and other members of the
islamofacist group. Just a thought that the
researchers probably missed ;-)

I also suspect it has something to do with the
fact that the engineers (unlike the goat herders)
went to a university, where they were exposed to
the radical student groups. Mahmoud  Ahmadinejad
comes to mind.

--

---
Chris Smolinski
Black Cat Systems
http://www.blackcatsystems.com

2008\01\28@171206 by Bob Axtell

face picon face
Apptech wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Yep, sounds like me alright.

--Bob

2008\01\28@172019 by Dr Skip

picon face
The problem is, 'normal' lacks definition, and unfortunately, it would probably
be described with the following traits (and thereby making them good citizens
too, etc). ;)

- Shows no interest in any complex activity, unless assigned by a superior, and
prefers ones such as 'downloading ringtones' to a cellphone or of similar
complexity.

- Is capable of pushing a switch, but shows no interest in what happens at a
more detailed level.

- Does not question orders, nor initiates any action which he/she hasn't seen
done by a peer in advance.

OOOPS! No I'm going to have to go to therapy again.... ;)


Apptech wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2008\01\28@193623 by Bob Barr

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face
On Mon, 28 Jan 2008 15:55:14 -0500, Dr Skip wrote:

>PIClist users beware...
>
>The paper:
>http://www.nuff.ox.ac.uk/users/gambetta/Engineers%20of%20Jihad.pdf
>
>The EDN article:
>http://www.edn.com/blog/1750000175/post/1030020903.html
>
>Quote from the article in EDN:
>
>Monday, January 28, 2008
>EEs have terrorist mindset, Oxford University paper suggests
>
>A sociology paper from the University of Oxford has suggested there is a tie
>between the mindset of EEs and that of extreme Islamic terrorists.
>

Notice that the study was done by sociologists, i.e. people who
couldn't get into engineering school. :=)


Regards, Bob

2008\01\28@210839 by William \Chops\ Westfield

face picon face

On Jan 28, 2008, at 4:36 PM, Bob Barr wrote:

> Notice that the study was done by sociologists, i.e. people who
> couldn't get into engineering school. :=)

Hmm.  Those were the same guys who compared CEOs to sociopaths,
right?  It's starting to sound like sour grapes: "everyone but
us is a sicko!"

BillW

2008\01\28@221012 by Sean Breheny

face picon face
I think that this may have a tiny bit of merit.

Engineers tend to like black and white thinking. Often this is a BIG
advantage (it can help to sort out truth from fiction in many
situations). They also tend to have a good deal of opinionated,
obstinate self-confidence. Again, an asset in a situation where one
needs to be a technical leader.

However, if an engineering-type personality grasps onto a religious
idea, he can easily try to pursue it to its "logical consequences",
which may be good or may be a disaster depending on what the idea is
and how well he actually understands it and its consequences prior to
his trying to apply it absolutely. He also may lack the "human"
ability to judge the best thing in a particular situation (rather than
just strictly apply rules or principles) - which used to be called the
virtue of prudence.

I speak from unfortunate self experience ;-)

Sean


On Jan 28, 2008 3:55 PM, Dr Skip <.....drskipKILLspamspam.....gmail.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>

2008\01\29@041043 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>PIClist users beware...
>
>The paper:
> http://www.nuff.ox.ac.uk/users/gambetta/Engineers%20of%20Jihad.pdf
>
>The EDN article:
> http://www.edn.com/blog/1750000175/post/1030020903.html

Sounds to me more like paranoia over the protestors who are attempting to
stop Oxford University building a laboratory where animals will be used for
experimental medicine. See
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/oxfordshire/4707251.stm for typical news
item on it.

I think I tend to agree with the EDN Readers Comments.

2008\01\29@043344 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>It is also possible that engineers end up being
>more capable of building explosive devices than
>goat herders and other members of the
>islamofacist group. Just a thought that the
>researchers probably missed ;-)

I wouldn't bet on that either. NZ farmers were pretty good in days of yore,
at making explosive out of fertiliser and sugar, for the purpose of removing
old tree stumps and other large objects that littered their farms.


'[EE] from your friends at EDN...'
2008\02\01@161205 by alan smith
picon face
Good thing I don't goto any sort of religious events....too busy working.  Oh wait...I only worked half day on xmas this year.....

     
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