Post by thread:[EE] What's up with National Semiconductor?

I sampled four different IC-types from National this weekend, all were some kind of motor interface-ICs. Today I got four mails (one per sampled IC-type) from National, all saying that they're sorry and they have to charge me a small shipping fee since I'm outside the US. No problems with that, I thought, so I opened the four links where I could add my Visa-card etc. These "small" fees were, in order: $80.40, $73.40, $77.40, $66.20, making a total sum of $297.40 - which DEFINATELY is a "small fee", yessir! Too bad, because I was a potential customer. So I googled around for other manufacturers.I found Intersil, but their web pages were even more braindead; when I "sampled" the parts, what the web did was to add my email address to a mailing list for the particular part type. Are there any other MOSFET H-bridge IC-manufacturers with the ability to sample? -- - Rikard - http://bos.hack.org/cv/

Hello, I'm using the L6206 H-Bridge from ST which I got as a sample a few months back. Also, I didn't pay anything to them and I'm on Brazil, so we're both outside the US :) http://www.st.com/stonline/products/literature/ds/7617/l6206.htm But apparently, on this particular H-bridge, they're not sending samples anymore... -- []´s Felipe Baldner .....fbaldnerKILLspam@spam@gmail.com {Quote hidden}> -----Mensagem original----- > De: piclist-bouncesKILLspammit.edu [.....piclist-bouncesKILLspam.....mit.edu] > Em nome de Rikard Bosnjakovic > Enviada em: segunda-feira, 4 de junho de 2007 02:30 PM > Para: Microcontroller discussion list - Public. > Assunto: [EE] What's up with National Semiconductor? > > I sampled four different IC-types from National this weekend, > all were some kind of motor interface-ICs. Today I got four > mails (one per sampled IC-type) from National, all saying > that they're sorry and they have to charge me a small > shipping fee since I'm outside the US. > > No problems with that, I thought, so I opened the four links > where I could add my Visa-card etc. These "small" fees were, > in order: $80.40, $73.40, $77.40, $66.20, making a total sum > of $297.40 - which DEFINATELY is a "small fee", yessir! > > Too bad, because I was a potential customer. > > So I googled around for other manufacturers.I found Intersil, > but their web pages were even more braindead; when I > "sampled" the parts, what the web did was to add my email > address to a mailing list for the particular part type. > > Are there any other MOSFET H-bridge IC-manufacturers with the > ability to sample? > > > -- > - Rikard - http://bos.hack.org/cv/ >

This is so bizarre that you have just done this as this is EXACTLY what I have done today but in reverse :-o I need some H-Bridge drivers and chips and some switchers as samples and put my sample order in with Intersil first. If you go back onto the Intersil site and click on samples now it will let you add them - you might need to copy and paste the part numbers after the initial sample order. Thats what I ended up doing. I then placed orders from the Natsemi site but haven't had anything back yet (finished 5 minutes ago). Will be interesting to see if I get some massive shipping/handling charge requests from Natsemi now. Dom {Original Message removed}

On Mon, 2007-06-04 at 19:29 +0200, Rikard Bosnjakovic wrote: > I sampled four different IC-types from National this weekend, all were > some kind of motor interface-ICs. Today I got four mails (one per > sampled IC-type) from National, all saying that they're sorry and they > have to charge me a small shipping fee since I'm outside the US. > > No problems with that, I thought, so I opened the four links where I > could add my Visa-card etc. These "small" fees were, in order: $80.40, > $73.40, $77.40, $66.20, making a total sum of $297.40 - which > DEFINATELY is a "small fee", yessir! > > Too bad, because I was a potential customer. Hehe, National used to be forefront on the "parts I go to by default" list because they had a great assortment of parts, and a REALLY good sample system. They then started limited their samples to people with "certain" email addresses (basically they removed people with "generic" email addresses like yahoo.com). That was fine for me, since I used a non generic address. They the limited addresses more, but gave no explanation as to which were OK and which weren't. I was in school at the time, using my school address, which they said should be fine, but wasn't. Tried using every email address I had, none were "approved". So I dropped them. Haven't been to their site since. It's a shame, their parts were pretty good, but their competitors have "reasonable" sample programs, so why should I go with National? If they make it that hard and expensive to get a few samples, how are they going to be when you need a little support? I don't care to find out. TTYL

On 6/4/07, Picbits Sales <EraseMEsalesspam_OUTTakeThisOuTpicbits.co.uk> wrote: > If you go back onto the Intersil site and click on samples now it will let > you add them - you might need to copy and paste the part numbers after the > initial sample order. Thats what I ended up doing. Thanks for letting me know. This info was correct, when returning to the sample-page I was finally able to fill the part-numbers. Now I'm just hoping they're sending them as well, without these ridicule "small shipping fees" as National's. -- - Rikard - http://bos.hack.org/cv/

Have you contacted your local reps? Being in the USA, never been charged shipping for samples, especially when they come thru the reps. But, are you *sure* all your getting is chips, or maybe demo boards? I know National has a program where you can get a demo board designed quick, and depending on the situation, can get them free..but will sometimes charge for them. I'd be whining to the rep for those kinds of charges. --------------------------------- Get the free Yahoo! toolbar and rest assured with the added security of spyware protection.

>> But, are you *sure* all your getting is chips > > > Yes, chips only. Guess, the sampling programme is evolving. Some of them have invoices but no payment is needed, and purely for internal accounting purposes. Just in case. The most costly sampling is when the distributor/reps want to visit me to deliver the free part to my hand. Total cost = Cost of part($0.00) + Cost of shipping ($0.00) + Cost of 0.5 day of productive work + Cost of receiving several calls after that Cheers, Ling SM

Well I've just had confirmation back on my order from National Semiconductor for the samples I placed an order for yesterday. Its a total of $270.60 for the shipping and handling charge. It would be cheaper to fly over to the states on a budget airline and get them in person. I will try the local distributors in the UK to see if they will provide me with any but at the moment it looks like Intersil will be getting my future business for the equivalent parts. Dom {Original Message removed}

yes...well, for me the reps and distie's are not obsolete. I use/abuse them on a daily basis, Maybe in other parts of the world they are not effective tools, but when you need to get inside a mfg...ie...TI...and get information not usually available, or be able to talk to the lead designer on a product...its the rep's that get me in that door. William Chops Westfield <@spam@westfwKILLspammac.com> wrote: On Jun 4, 2007, at 12:37 PM, alan smith wrote: > Have you contacted your local reps? Didn't you read the last thread? We all decided that Reps and distributers are obsolete... BillW

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Mon, Jun 04, 2007 at 05:40:14PM -0400, Richard Seriani, Sr. wrote: > I've had very good results in U.S. sampling from Allegro Microsystems via > my university account. No questions asked and very fast service. Lots of people at my school sample from Microchip constantly. I know a guy who puts in the maximum numbers of samples allowed as frequently as he can, about 4 types of chips, 3 each, once a month. Microchip never complains and this is comming from an arts school! I know a guy who even got them to send about 50 free 12x series chips to him for an arts project, he listed microchip as one of his sponsers. - -- http://petertodd.ca -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFGZcqo3bMhDbI9xWQRAlyAAJ92MV3sAFsM20awzzNJ8Gc8INLcBACghMaf TXIpEjElIOIfHtmFtSMasEA= =Nry9 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Same with MAXIN/DALLAS SEMI. -----Original Message----- From: RemoveMEpiclist-bouncesTakeThisOuTmit.edu [spamBeGonepiclist-bouncesspamBeGonemit.edu] On Behalf Of Rikard Bosnjakovic Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2007 4:34 PM To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public. Subject: Re: [EE] What's up with National Semiconductor? On 6/5/07, Peter Todd <TakeThisOuTpeteEraseMEspam_OUTpetertodd.ca> wrote: > Microchip never complains and this is comming from an arts school! Yep. Microchip are the best for sampling. No questions asked and they're usually very gentle. -- - Rikard - http://bos.hack.org/cv/

I believe, they let you sample some parts absolutely free (no s/h charges). Others are available at a 'small' fee which they clearly mention while you are placing the order. IIRC, the reason they give is that there is a huge demand or something like that for that part. Regards, Mohit Mahajan. Picbits Sales wrote: {Quote hidden}> Well I've just had confirmation back on my order from National Semiconductor > for the samples I placed an order for yesterday. > > Its a total of $270.60 for the shipping and handling charge. > > It would be cheaper to fly over to the states on a budget airline and get > them in person. > > I will try the local distributors in the UK to see if they will provide me > with any but at the moment it looks like Intersil will be getting my future > business for the equivalent parts. > > Dom > > {Original Message removed}

On 6/6/07, Mohit Mahajan <RemoveMEmohit.listsTakeThisOuTgmail.com> wrote: > IIRC, the reason they give is > that there is a huge demand or something like that for that part. No. The first time I tried to sample from National (it was a LED-bar driver IC, don't remember the actual part number), the web page said - BEFORE i clicked "confirm" - that this particular IC has a huge demand and they have to charge shipping fee etc, and that time it would cost me $13 to get them sent. The second, which initiated this thread, did not have this "huge demand"-warning, but the fee was more than six times higher. I do however not only want to rant at National, because they are the only company that sent me a _printed_ databook for free. For any other manufacturer, the answer was something like "we don't have databooks anymore, use the pdf-files". For me, who does not like reading big reference manuals in front of a computer screen, this pdf-only thingy is a backstab. -- - Rikard - http://bos.hack.org/cv/

>I do however not only want to rant at National, because they are >the only company that sent me a _printed_ databook for free. For >any other manufacturer, the answer was something like "we don't >have databooks anymore, use the pdf-files". For me, who does not >like reading big reference manuals in front of a computer screen, >this pdf-only thingy is a backstab. However to be fair, the cost of producing those books must be horrendous, and realistically only a very small proportion (if any) of each one gets read. Not only that but the saving in tree cutting for paper must be significant as well, across all semiconductor manufacturers. At least with a PDF you know (?) you are getting the most recent version from their website, you can get the sheets for the newest chips often before they appear in the local press (when you live in the far reaches like NZ or UK), and you can also download errata sheets for a lot of chips. App notes are also readily available. It is easy enough to print a datasheet, and Acrobat will allow you to put multiple pages on one side, so doing 2 A5 pages to one side of a sheet of A4 paper, double sided allows 4 pages to a sheet (but not necessarily in an order that allows you to staple it like a paper datasheet), means using considerably less paper if you really must have a printed copy, and yes I like to sometimes as well. Also having datasheets available on web sites makes a chip manufacturer more accessible to everyone. If I had to go get a databook from a rep in many cases I wouldn't know who to look for - certainly before the web came along. And I have a story against National as well - for many years they had an agency in New Zealand who had served them well, selling considerable quantities for the size of the country. Then about late 1970s National decided off their own bat to terminate this distributor, and make (IIRC) Dick Smith (a Radio Shack style operation) their distributor. Instantly the range of chips available became very limited, and what DS did know about was generally not in stock. The sales to NZ must have had a steeper fall than stock prices in a wall street crash.

> However to be fair, the cost of producing those books must be > horrendous, > and realistically only a very small proportion (if any) of > each one gets > read. Not only that but the saving in tree cutting for paper must be > significant as well, across all semiconductor manufacturers. I am not so sure. I have a 1 meter pile of printed pdfs somewhere, but when I need let's say the 7805 specs I simply print it again, browsing through the pile would take too much time (most of that was printed with printers that could neither do 2-on-1, nor double-sided). Those old databooks were mostly printed on very thin paper, I wish I could order such a thin-paper book of a specified set of pdf datasheets! Wouter van Ooijen -- ------------------------------------------- Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl consultancy, development, PICmicro products docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu

On Wed, 2007-06-06 at 14:15 +0100, Alan B. Pearce wrote: > However to be fair, the cost of producing those books must be horrendous, > and realistically only a very small proportion (if any) of each one gets > read. Not only that but the saving in tree cutting for paper must be > significant as well, across all semiconductor manufacturers. > > At least with a PDF you know (?) you are getting the most recent version > from their website, you can get the sheets for the newest chips often before > they appear in the local press (when you live in the far reaches like NZ or > UK), and you can also download errata sheets for a lot of chips. App notes > are also readily available. Agreed. In the days when chips were more "static" in functionality (i.e. TTL logic chips) databooks kinda made sense (you used the book for functionality and pinout info, and online info for up to date timing specs). These days though, chips are in such flux you'd NEVER have an up to date book (so you'd still end up online with the pdf), and even if you had a book, you'd need a new edition every few months just to keep up. Perfect proof of this is digikey's catalogs, every one I get is thicker then the one before it. I once had a collection of databooks from NS. I barely ever used them (finally threw them out when I moved). It was just faster and easier to go online and get the info (which was usually more up to date then the books), and this was in the days of 9600 baud modems (yes, it sometimes took an hour to download a datasheet)! I however do agree that fully reading a datasheet is much better on paper, so when I do need to look at a whole datasheet (i.e. for the enc28j60) my solution is printing 4 pages per sheet and using a spiral binding. TTYL

On Wed, 2007-06-06 at 15:50 +0200, wouter van ooijen wrote: > > However to be fair, the cost of producing those books must be > > horrendous, > > and realistically only a very small proportion (if any) of > > each one gets > > read. Not only that but the saving in tree cutting for paper must be > > significant as well, across all semiconductor manufacturers. > > I am not so sure. I have a 1 meter pile of printed pdfs somewhere, but > when I need let's say the 7805 specs I simply print it again, browsing But do you REALLY print out the whole datasheet? Generally I print out only two or three pages of a datasheet for a part I'm using: the pinout, the "pin functions" and an example app. For more nitty gritty I just open my laptop. TTYL

> But do you REALLY print out the whole datasheet? Generally I > print out only two or three pages of a datasheet for a part > I'm using: the pinout, the "pin functions" and an example > app. For more nitty gritty I just open my laptop. depends: when I know what I want I of course print out just that (Can't even remeber how often I printed the pages with pinouts of various PICs), but when I am not familiar with the chip and the interface is complicated I must print out most of the datasheet. I hate it when I am reading (in bed, in the garden, wating for a train, etc) and some essential part is missing. Of course i walways try to avoid the humbug pages at the end, especially the ones with PCB layouts. Unfortunately some manufactureres like big dark logo's on every page :( Wouter van Ooijen -- ------------------------------------------- Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl consultancy, development, PICmicro products docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu

Herbert Graf wrote: > my solution is printing 4 pages per sheet and using a spiral binding. I use FinePrint for such things. It can print in booklet form, so that you can at the end fold the whole staple in the middle, staple or otherwise bind it, and have all the pages in the correct order. Nowadays some printer drivers can do that, but not all, and I started using it when pretty much no printer driver could do that. Gerhard

On 6/6/07, Alan B. Pearce <A.B.PearceEraseME.....rl.ac.uk> wrote: > However to be fair, the cost of producing those books must be horrendous, > and realistically only a very small proportion (if any) of each one gets > read. Not only that but the saving in tree cutting for paper must be > significant as well, across all semiconductor manufacturers. Ofcourse, I'm fully aware that keeping those databooks up to date was not a cheap job in the early days, and definately not cheap today either since the world is constantly evolving. What I want databooks for is to get a general overview for products. I like browsing page by page in case I happen to find a nice chip or something like that. If it looks useful, I might sample it, build some circuits around it, and then continue doing so. For a situation like that, the pdf would certainly be the way to go to keep me updated with the chip-in-question's datas, but the book would get me into the "mode of knowing" about the chip. I'm still a hobbyist and I've yet got a long learning path to go, so I don't know even a tenth of a percent of all tips, tricks, ICs etc out there. For me, it's an eternal - but outrageously interesting! - jungle. For me, a databook would be my kind of machete to pacefully step forward along the path. Trying to walk the path using pdf:s would kind of be like tampering with quicksand. Stepping and struggling but without any grip. -- - Rikard - http://bos.hack.org/cv/

On Jun 7, 2007, at 12:16 PM, Rikard Bosnjakovic wrote: > I'm fully aware that keeping those databooks up to date was > not a cheap job in the early days, and definately not cheap today > either since the world is constantly evolving. Yeah. While I never minded lying to companies to get free samples from companies when I was a student, I always felt a bit guilty when they ended up paying many times the cost of the chip to ship me a massive databook with it. (Not that companies seem to be very efficient about shipping chips weighing less than an ounce by first class mail, anyway. Sigh.) > > What I want databooks for is to get a general overview for products. Yes, I did/do enjoy browsing through a good databook. BillW

Bill, 'scuse me for fraying the thread... On Thu, 7 Jun 2007 20:59:19 -0700, William "Chops" Westfield wrote: > I always felt a bit guilty when > they ended up paying many times the cost of the chip to ship me a > massive databook with it. (Not that companies seem to be very > efficient about shipping chips weighing less than an ounce by > first class mail, anyway. Sigh.) I ordered a load of stuff from Mouser while I was staying in New York. It all arrived, but a pack of 10 diodes only had three in it, so I contacted them. Unfortunately I was about to fly home, and told them this - they said they'd send the missing parts to the UK. When they arrived, by Global Priority, they were in a 6" cubic cardboard box, with conductive bubble-wrap filling it, then a conductive plastic bag containing the mylar packet with the 7 tiny diodes in it, and six copies of the shipping document! They could have just popped them in an ordinary envelope, or perhaps a bubble-padded envelope, and saved themselves and the planet a ludicrous amount of cost/waste. Surely someone must have thought as they were packing it that it was ridiculous? Don't firms have a way for employees to report stupid situations so they can be improved? </rant> Cheers, Howard Winter St.Albans, England

On 6/12/07, Howard Winter <EraseMEHDRWh2org.demon.co.uk> wrote: > When they arrived, by Global Priority, > they were in a 6" cubic cardboard box, with conductive bubble-wrap filling it, > then a conductive plastic bag containing the mylar packet with the 7 > tiny diodes in it, and six copies of the shipping document! They could have > just popped them in an ordinary envelope, or perhaps a bubble-padded > envelope, and saved themselves and the planet a ludicrous amount of > cost/waste. Surely someone must have thought as they were packing it that it > was ridiculous? Don't firms have a way for employees to report stupid situations > so they can be improved? > > </rant> I'd apprecaite what they have done. ;-) By the way, I think a lot of US companies do follow "SOP" or Standard Operatiion Procedure. So Mouser is one of them. Regards, Xiaofan

We've actually had this discussion here a few years ago, where I was questioning why Analog Devices sent me 2 very small chips (8-TSOP IIRC) in a huge box, etc. One very plausible answer was that they only have certain-sized packages which simplifies and speeds up their packaging process. As I am now in production with my products, I agree that keeping only a few different sizes of boxes on hand is more cost effective and faster to deal with than many different sizes. Also, although my most popular box size is 6" x 4" x 4", I have to sometimes package it in a bigger box for international shipping as the post-office complains that the label/customs forms won't fit on it. Cheers, -Neil. On Tuesday 12 June 2007 06:31, Howard Winter wrote: {Quote hidden}> ... > Priority, they were in a 6" cubic cardboard box, with conductive > bubble-wrap filling it, then a conductive plastic bag containing the mylar > packet with the 7 tiny diodes in it, and six copies of the shipping > document! They could have just popped them in an ordinary envelope, or > perhaps a bubble-padded envelope, and saved themselves and the planet a > ludicrous amount of cost/waste. Surely someone must have thought as they > were packing it that it was ridiculous? Don't firms have a way for > employees to report stupid situations so they can be improved? > > </rant>

On 6/4/07, Picbits Sales <RemoveMEsalesEraseMEEraseMEpicbits.co.uk> wrote: > I need some H-Bridge drivers and chips and some switchers as samples and put > my sample order in with Intersil first. [...] For the record, I received the chips (and a nice booklet!) from Intersil today. No charge for me, and they shipped using DHL Express. Now that's what I call a National Semiconductor beat-em-up, customer-wise ;-) -- - Rikard - http://bos.hack.org/cv/

> For the record, I received the chips (and a nice booklet!) from > Intersil today. No charge for me, and they shipped using DHL Express. > > Now that's what I call a National Semiconductor beat-em-up, customer-wise > ;-) > > > -- > - Rikard - http://bos.hack.org/cv/ > -- I got mine from Intersil at the end of last week - rapid delivery. I also received some samples from ST yesterday (also very good service). I sent them both a quick "thank you" through their online "contact us" form for the excellent service received and received a personal reply from both of them by email the same day. Dom

Howard Winter wrote: > Don't firms have a way for employees to report stupid situations so they can be improved? Sometimes it doesn't matter. The "process" is ISO 900X "certified" and can't be changed without great expense. ISO 900x certification is not a guarantee of quality, just a way to prove you do it the same every time, whether that way makes any sense or not. The Firestone tire plant that produced tires that killed hundreds of people, was ISO 9001 certified. It's one of my co-worker's favorite photos, a shot of the plant, closed down, and the caption talking about how the plant's production system was grossly negligent and deficient. It keeps those who think we should have ISO 900x certifications here, at bay. And the truth of the matter is, no. Most companies don't have suggestion boxes or any other way of making recommendations anonymously. Nate

Nate Duehr wrote: > Howard Winter wrote: >> Don't firms have a way for employees to report stupid situations so they can be improved? > > And the truth of the matter is, no. Most companies don't have > suggestion boxes or any other way of making recommendations anonymously. > > Nate We do. A label reading "COMPANY SUGGESTION BOX" has been securely taped over the top of the paper shredder. Suggester: "er, what's that sound it makes when I submit a suggestion?" Answer: "that's the sound of inevitability, Mr. Anderson"