Searching \ for '[EE] Very High Voltage DC Step-Up (Paul Haggard)' in subject line. ()
Make payments with PayPal - it's fast, free and secure! Help us get a faster server
FAQ page: www.piclist.com/techref/power.htm?key=voltage
Search entire site for: 'Very High Voltage DC Step-Up (Paul Haggard)'.

Exact match. Not showing close matches.
PICList Thread
'[EE] Very High Voltage DC Step-Up (Paul Haggard)'
2011\02\02@083301 by Paul Haggard

picon face
I'm researching a project right now that requires a step-up converter for DC
~3v to DC 1kV and the load consumes about 1mW.  I'm a mechanical engineer
with limited knowledge about EE and microcontrollers, but I've never dealt
with a step up converter before.  I know that this converter is (somehow)
possible to build because my research shows that this has been done, but I
do not know if a flyback transformer or switching transistor would be able
to accomplish this without significant power loss.  The intended power
source is a pair of AA alkaline batteries.  I have never dealt with such
high voltage potentials before and I'm wary to being any testing before I
come up with a strict safety guidelines and a sure way to keep the current
in the nanoamp range.  If anyone can suggest potential resources for
obtaining any relevant information, I'd be glad to do more reading; I simply
don't know where to start yet.  Thanks!  -Pau

2011\02\02@085122 by Yigit Turgut

picon face
I think a 3v - 1kV DC-DC conversion will cost you a lot instead you might
consider to convert your 3V DC to 3V AC first and then raise the level to
1kV using a transformer.After than you can regulate your 1kV AC to get 1kV
DC. In the configuration you specified 10e-6 A current will be delivered to
your load and you are not that far from your current range, you can add some
resistors to degrade the current IMHO.

On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 3:33 PM, Paul Haggard <spam_OUTpaulhaggardTakeThisOuTspamgmail.com> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

>

2011\02\02@085719 by RussellMc

face picon face
3V -> 1 kV supply at 1 mW.


Not hard in theory.
Requires modest care in practice - but not hard.

How big can it be? (volume, mass)
How many?
What max cost?
What must it idle at ? (1 mW or ///?)
What battery must it run from?
More ...?
What is it :-) ?


Quick first suggestion - HeNe LASER supply circuits are possiby of use.

If this is a one off then acquiring one may be the easiest path.
There are also numerous DIY ccts for doing this.

You can just use a single stage flyback design.
Some may use a voltage multiplier for various reasons.
At your low power level a flyback should be easy enough.

A 'few' starters here
Lots of practical related advice

  http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/laserhpd.htm

Commercial ccts at top of this page
DIY towards bottom

 http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/laserhsc.htm#hscsgi


Here's a 12 V - LASER supply.
Possibly what I've got one of somewhere in my dungeon
T1does all the hard work - the rest is relatively straight forward  in
functionality.
At 1 kV you probably don't need a multiplier.


            http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/laser/oatley1.pdf



Russel

2011\02\02@091350 by Mike Harrison

flavicon
face
On Thu, 3 Feb 2011 02:56:37 +1300, you wrote:

>3V -> 1 kV supply at 1 mW.

A CCFL backlight transformer would be a good start as a ready-made HV transformer, probably with 1
or 2 stages of multiplier on the output.

2011\02\02@105730 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
Paul Haggard wrote:
> I'm researching a project right now that requires a step-up converter
> for DC ~3v to DC 1kV and the load consumes about 1mW.  I'm a
> mechanical engineer with limited knowledge about EE and
> microcontrollers, but I've never dealt with a step up converter
> before.  I know that this converter is (somehow) possible to build
> because my research shows that this has been done, but I do not know
> if a flyback transformer or switching transistor would be able to
> accomplish this without significant power loss.  The intended power
> source is a pair of AA alkaline batteries.  I have never dealt with
> such high voltage potentials before and I'm wary to being any testing
> before I come up with a strict safety guidelines and a sure way to
> keep the current in the nanoamp range.  If anyone can suggest
> potential resources for obtaining any relevant information, I'd be
> glad to do more reading; I simply don't know where to start yet.

Using a flyback transformer sounds like the obvious first thing to look at.
Finding one off the shelf with the right characteristics will be the tricky
part.

Since you're a mechanical engineer and you're talking about voltages that
could easily kill, you should get someone who knows this stuff to do it.
Would you want to be hanging over a deep gorge in a cable-suspended trolly
designed by a electrical engineer with limited knowledge about mechanical
systems?


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000

2011\02\02@111127 by Chris Smolinski

flavicon
face
There are companies that sell these things, if you don't want to make your own. EMCO comes to mind.


Chris Smolinski
Black Cat Systems
http://www.blackcatsystems.com


2011\02\02@113106 by jim

flavicon
face

Paul,

Go to http://www.ahv.com.  They are manufactureres / distributors of potted
high voltage modules.
They have several varieties, and I'm sure there will be one that you
can use.  They are easy
to use too.  You put into the input of the module a DC voltage between
say 0 and 12 volts.
And you get out from 0 to say 5000 volts.  We used these in a
development kit for a product  a number of years ago, and they work very well.  Not real cheap, but
very reliable and predictable.
Check them out.  It may save you some time and trouble.


Regards,

Jim

> ---{Original Message removed}

2011\02\02@121932 by N. T.

picon face
Paul Haggard wrote:
> I have never dealt with such
> high voltage potentials before and I'm wary to being any testing before I
> come up with a strict safety guidelines and a sure way to keep the current
> in the nanoamp range.  If anyone can suggest potential resources for
> obtaining any relevant information, I'd be glad to do more reading; I simply
> don't know where to start yet.  Thanks!  -Paul

To read, probably, this good doc
cds.linear.com/docs/Application%20Note/an118fa.pdf

"Figure 11. Controlled Transition Time Switching Regulator Applied to
a Negative Output,
1000V Converter. A1 Provides Low Impedance, Inverting Feedback to LT1534"

But, please, don't develop it unless you are a high voltage EE pro.

2011\02\02@154308 by IVP

face picon face
Paul,

Google for negative ion generator schematic to perhaps give you
some ideas

An Australian magazine (ETI) published projects for negative ion
generators in the 80's. One version was intended for cars, powered
from the battery. A 555 driving a small 12V-230V transformer (an
off-the-shelf 230V-12V installed backwards) and a few Cockcroft-
Walton doubler stages after that

Jo

2011\02\02@161333 by IVP

face picon face
part 1 373 bytes content-type:text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" (decoded quoted-printable)

Paul,

I've used the HT block from a Zap Bat

http://www.pestfreehome.co.uk/bug-zapper_details.htm

to ignite propane with a spark plug

It runs on 3V and makes a 5-6mm spark between needle points,
so it'll be putting out several kV

The module is potted, and you can't tinker with it (without some
determination  ;-)) )

Joe

part 2 4895 bytes content-type:image/jpeg; name="proto1_spark_sm_sm.jpg" (decode)


part 3 181 bytes content-type:text/plain; name="ATT00001.txt"
(decoded base64)

--
http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
View/change your membership options at
mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

2011\02\03@111731 by Joe McCauley

picon face
If the load power required is 1mW then you need to be keeping the current in the 1uA range.

You don't say what kind of load it is. If it is pulsed then think of something along the lines of a camera flash gun supply. If the load has any associated capacitance, then make sure you use a bleed resistor.

If you are not fully committed to 2 AA batteries for power, then you might look at EMCO's range.

http://www.emcohighvoltage.com/pdfs/caseries.pdf

also Ultravolt,

http://www.ultravolt.com/products/1-single-output-high-voltage-modules/

or Brandenberg.

http://www.brandenburg.co.uk/

All these modules are neat, but none will produce 1KV with 3 volts input.

If you are not so experienced with HV electronics then a module is the way to go in my view. Its not so much safety, but rather having something that will work well.

Joe


{Original Message removed}

2011\02\03@121024 by Denny Esterline

picon face
You didn't give a lot of details about your application so this may
not be worth the electrons it was written with...

For a crude, one off, or proof of concept gadget with few other
constraints, consider tying together several photo-flash units.
You can often get them for cheap to free out of disposable cameras.
Depending on make/model they typically charge the flash cap to 150 -
200 volts. So string a few in series (all with separate batteries to
maintain isolation) and you should be able to hit the 1kV mark easy
enough. Available continuous current will range significantly
depending on unit and battery condition, but can be approximated well
enough with a stop watch measuring time to charge and capacitor size.

I personally _despise_ the "don't try this at home" mantra, but I'll
say this - be responsible for your own safety, this could kill you,
don't blame me if it does. :-)

-Denn

2011\02\03@161314 by RussellMc

face picon face
> I personally _despise_ the "don't try this at home" mantra, ...

In most cases where that's said I hear it as saying something like

"We just KNOW that you are going to rush out and try this as soon as
this show finishes, we applaud your enthusiasm, please try to remember
in your enthusiasm to be responsible for your own safety, please
please keep trying to remember that this could kill you (it nearly
killed me), please don't blame me if it does, have a nice day".


2011\02\03@163554 by V G

picon face
On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 8:33 AM, Paul Haggard <.....paulhaggardKILLspamspam@spam@gmail.com> wrote:

> I'm researching a project right now that requires a step-up converter for
> DC
> ~3v to DC 1kV and the load consumes about 1mW.  I'm a mechanical engineer
> with limited knowledge about EE and microcontrollers, but I've never dealt
> with a step up converter before.  I know that this converter is (somehow)
> possible to build because my research shows that this has been done, but I
> do not know if a flyback transformer or switching transistor would be able
> to accomplish this without significant power loss.  The intended power
> source is a pair of AA alkaline batteries.  I have never dealt with such
> high voltage potentials before and I'm wary to being any testing before I
> come up with a strict safety guidelines and a sure way to keep the current
> in the nanoamp range.  If anyone can suggest potential resources for
> obtaining any relevant information, I'd be glad to do more reading; I
> simply
> don't know where to start yet.  Thanks!  -Paul
>
>
1. Hi! I don't know much a bout anything at all, but you can do this by
converting the 3V DC into 3V AC and then using a transformer (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transformer) of some sort to get the 1000V that
you need.

2. I know if you go to walmart and ask nicely, they may let you have their
disposable cameras. With those, you can then harvest their flash capacitors
and associated circuitry which charges the capacitor to pretty high voltages
(I don't remember exactly high, but should be in the 100s of volts I think)..

3. This is purely a guess, and someone more knowledgeable may be able to
expand on this, but you could try building a capacitor charge pump. You can
use DC-DC step up converters from Linear Technology (free samples) to get
voltages first to around 20-25 volts or so, then use some "medium" voltage
capacitors in series to get the 1000V

2011\02\03@163908 by V G

picon face
On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 4:13 PM, IVP <joecolquittspamKILLspamclear.net.nz> wrote:

> Paul,
>
> I've used the HT block from a Zap Bat
>
> http://www.pestfreehome.co.uk/bug-zapper_details.htm
>
> to ignite propane with a spark plug
>
> It runs on 3V and makes a 5-6mm spark between needle points,
> so it'll be putting out several kV
>
> The module is potted, and you can't tinker with it (without some
> determination  ;-)) )
>
> Joe
>

Oh yeah, these are super cool

2011\02\03@170308 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
RussellMc wrote:
>> I personally _despise_ the "don't try this at home" mantra, ...
>
> In most cases where that's said I hear it as saying something like
>
> "We just KNOW that you are going to rush out and try this as soon as
> this show finishes, we applaud your enthusiasm, please try to remember
> in your enthusiasm to be responsible for your own safety, please
> please keep trying to remember that this could kill you (it nearly
> killed me), please don't blame me if it does, have a nice day".

If you like being a nanny perhaps.  How about:

"Since you have to ask, you obviously don't have much of a clue.  I really
don't give a crap if you zap yourself, get your body town to shreads, get
eaten by sharks, or whatever.  In fact, you'd probably be doing the gene
pool a favor.  However, I don't want my reputation to suffer because you
went and did something stupid and somehow managed to blame me for the
outcome.  So I'm telling you that doing this may get yourself zapped, your
body torn to shreds, eaten by sharks, or worse.  Go ahead and do whatever
you want, but you can't blame me afterwards.  And please don't do it where I
end up having to pay in even a small part to clean up the mess."


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000

2011\02\03@172227 by Michael Watterson

face picon face
On 03/02/2011 21:35, V G wrote:
> 2. I know if you go to walmart and ask nicely, they may let you have their
> disposable cameras. With those, you can then harvest their flash capacitors
> and associated circuitry which charges the capacitor to pretty high voltages
> (I don't remember exactly high, but should be in the 100s of volts I think).
350 V usually
There are cheaper ways to buy 350v cap

2011\02\03@172412 by Michael Watterson

face picon face
On 03/02/2011 21:35, V G wrote:
> 3. This is purely a guess, and someone more knowledgeable may be able to
> expand on this, but you could try building a capacitor charge pump. You can
> use DC-DC step up converters from Linear Technology (free samples) to get
> voltages first to around 20-25 volts or so, then use some "medium" voltage
> capacitors in series to get the 1000V.
you need AC drive and loads of rectifiers too

Some circuits http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cockcroft%E2%80%93Walton_generator

2011\02\03@173940 by Michael Watterson

face picon face
On 03/02/2011 22:24, Michael Watterson wrote:
> On 03/02/2011 21:35, V G wrote:
>> 3. This is purely a guess, and someone more knowledgeable may be able to
>> expand on this, but you could try building a capacitor charge pump. You can
>> use DC-DC step up converters from Linear Technology (free samples) to get
>> voltages first to around 20-25 volts or so, then use some "medium" voltage
>> capacitors in series to get the 1000V.
> you need AC drive and loads of rectifiers too
>
> Some circuits
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cockcroft%E2%80%93Walton_generator
>

Actually, don't try this at home... :-)

Use the mains directly for the AC drive.

2011\02\03@174545 by IVP

face picon face
> 350 V usually
> There are cheaper ways to buy 350v caps

Cheaper than free ?

I asked for and was given, without question, > 100 spent
disposable cameras last year

Turned them into ......

http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/joecolquitt/multi-flash.htm

2011\02\03@175905 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
Michael Watterson wrote:
>> 2. I know if you go to walmart and ask nicely, they may let you have
>> their disposable cameras. ...
>
> There are cheaper ways to buy 350v caps

What, you found a source that pays you to take them?


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000

2011\02\03@175921 by Michael Watterson

face picon face
On 03/02/2011 22:45, IVP wrote:
>> 350 V usually
>> There are cheaper ways to buy 350v caps
> Cheaper than free ?
>
> I asked for and was given, without question,>  100 spent
> disposable cameras last year
>
> Turned them into ......
>
> home.clear.net.nz/pages/joecolquitt/multi-flash.html
I'm not sure that they would be allowed to do that here in EU. Some strange interpretations of EU recycling laws here in Ireland I think.

Free is good

2011\02\03@182252 by RussellMc

face picon face
>> ... if you go to walmart and ask nicely, they may let you have their
>> disposable cameras. With those, you can then harvest their flash capacitors

> 350 V usually
> There are cheaper ways to buy 350v caps

Cheaper than free is good (if you don't count labour :-) ) - given
that you also get a few volt DC to HT inverter and a small Xenon
fglash tube and just maybe a pulse transformer too.

Pse advise how to get a better deal.



2011\02\03@182610 by RussellMc

face picon face
> I asked for and was given, without question, > 100 spent
> disposable cameras last year
> Turned them into ......

> http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/joecolquitt/multi-flash.html

That's a very flash piece of equipment :-)


2011\02\03@183421 by IVP

face picon face
> I'm not sure that they would be allowed to do that here in EU.
> Some strange interpretations of EU recycling laws here in Ireland
> I think

Disposables make their way to the Fuji depot in Auckland, from
where they are sent to China for recycling. Presumably the boards
are put in a new case with a film. But many end up in the shop
rubbish. Being both summer and post-Christmas here I could go
out this afternoon and pick up dozens more. Usually the battery is
there too, and some are pretty good brand name AA and AAA
with only a few seconds use. It'll be a while until I need to buy any
for remotes !

Not much of this helpful to Paul, although he could get four caps
and stack them to make a 1400V electrolytic

2011\02\03@183515 by RussellMc

face picon face
> To read, probably, this good doc

Jim Williams did it. It will be good.

> cds.linear.com/docs/Application%20Note/an118fa.pdf

Fig 17 may be of much interest.
A 555 or similar could be used as the driver.
the main trick here is the "cascode" drive of the high voltage MOSFET
with a low voltage switch.
The FET gate is held at no more than +15V by the 15V gate to ground
zener diode and the source is switched. The switch carries the full
output current but only "sees" 15V maximum.

This could be used directly for a 1000 V supply with suitable
component changes.
Like most such circuits it MIGHT kill you easily if you let it.
(I've had many HV shocks (none recently) and survived - others have
been less lucky).

 Russell

> "Figure 11. Controlled Transition Time Switching Regulator Applied to
> a Negative Output,
> 1000V Converter. A1 Provides Low Impedance, Inverting Feedback to LT1534

2011\02\03@233913 by Jonathan Hallameyer

picon face
On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 11:11 AM, Chris Smolinski
<.....csmolinskiKILLspamspam.....blackcatsystems.com> wrote:
> There are companies that sell these things, if you don't want to make your own. EMCO comes to mind.
>
>
> Chris Smolinski
> Black Cat Systems
> http://www.blackcatsystems.com
>
>
>
>
>

2011\02\04@025332 by Peter

picon face
Paul Haggard <paulhaggard <at> gmail.com> writes:
> I'm researching a project right now that requires a step-up converter for DC
> ~3v to DC 1kV and the load consumes about 1mW.  I'm a mechanical engineer

1kV @1uA from 1.5V (one AA cell) is easily achieved with a 1 transistor flyback
oscillator followed by a multiplier cascade, but it will be an unregulated
voltage. You need to specify your load more precisely to make this work. How
much noise can there be on the 1kV output? Is a 20% output sag with battery
aging acceptable? Does the RFI radiated by the oscillator interfere with your
other circuits? etc etc

-- Peter

2011\02\04@032809 by Michael Watterson

face picon face
On 03/02/2011 22:59, Olin Lathrop wrote:
> Michael Watterson wrote:
>>> 2. I know if you go to walmart and ask nicely, they may let you have
>>> their disposable cameras. ...
>> There are cheaper ways to buy 350v caps
> What, you found a source that pays you to take them?
On 03/02/2011 23:22, RussellMc wrote:
> Cheaper than free is good (if you don't count labour:-)  ) - given

Obviously I misunderstood the the 1st post there, interpreting "ask nicely" as "buy" as the word "used" was missing and there is nowhere here I know of where you could intercept items intended to be sent to recycling.
No walmart either. I presumed always Tesco is the closest we have to  Walmart style outfit.


I'll stop digging now. OK.  ^_^

2011\02\04@201739 by cdb

flavicon
face
:: Actually, don't try this at home... :-)
:: Use the mains directly for the AC drive.

Perhaps to doubly clarify, in case some one put the emphasis in the wrong place -
DO NOT Use the mains directly for the AC drive as is shown on the webpage.

Colin
--
cdb, EraseMEcolinspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTbtech-online.co.uk on 5/02/2011
Web presence: http://www.btech-online.co.uk   Hosted by:  http://www.justhost.com.au
 


2011\02\04@203613 by V G

picon face
On Fri, Feb 4, 2011 at 8:17 PM, cdb <colinspamspam_OUTbtech-online.co.uk> wrote:

> :: Actually, don't try this at home... :-)
> :: Use the mains directly for the AC drive.
>
> Perhaps to doubly clarify, in case some one put the emphasis in the wrong
> place -
>
> DO NOT Use the mains directly for the AC drive as is shown on the webpage..
>
> Colin
>

Just out of curiosity, what email client do you use? I've never seen one
that uses colons to quote

More... (looser matching)
- Last day of these posts
- In 2011 , 2012 only
- Today
- New search...