Searching \ for '[EE] VFD for 1 phase AC motor' in subject line. ()
Make payments with PayPal - it's fast, free and secure! Help us get a faster server
FAQ page: www.piclist.com/techref/io/motors.htm?key=motor
Search entire site for: 'VFD for 1 phase AC motor'.

Exact match. Not showing close matches.
PICList Thread
'[EE] VFD for 1 phase AC motor'
2005\09\23@033620 by Gmail Lists

picon face
Hello all,

In my workshop I have an assortment of motor driven tools -
portable and mounted drill, circular saw, grinders. All of
these run on single phase AC motors, 220V, 50 Hz. The saw is
~900W and the rest are all of lower rating. There is no
speed controller on any of these tools. I work on different
materials - wood, aluminum, mild and stainless steel. The
operating speeds are different for each.

Is it possible to design a single phase VFD to control speed
of motors - 220VAC, 1Ph, 50 Hz, 2kW?  The designs I've
found are controllers for 3 phase motors.

I've used triac based controllers, but want something with
better control.

Thanks,
Mohit.

2005\09\23@050900 by Jinx

face picon face
> Is it possible to design a single phase VFD to control speed
> of motors - 220VAC, 1Ph, 50 Hz, 2kW?  The designs I've
> found are controllers for 3 phase motors.

Hi Mohit. This topic has been covered before, and at that time
the conclusion was that designing such a circuit is fraught with
difficulties. IIRC, the only way was to rectify the AC and then
convert the HV DC back to AC at the new frequency. I'd have
been interested myself in such a speed control, as all the ones
I've seen have been either 3-phase, expensive, or both. Apart
from tools, I've a few synchronous motors that could use VFD

> I've used triac based controllers, but want something with
> better control

Only my lathe and drill press use synchrounous motors, and
they are the only ones to use belt selection for speed control.
All of the rest I can use with a pretty standard SCR controller
(I've a gif of the circuit if you want to take a look)

I can't say I've found it lacking in any great respect. It has
feedback to keep the torque up as much as possible, and is
OK at slower speeds. This particular one doesn't hunt too
much either. As well as the material you also have bear in mind
the cutting edge. I can imagine a 20krpm router bit run at slow
speed would not do such a clean job, but you probably know
that anyway

2005\09\23@120553 by GM

picon face


> -----Original Message-----
> From: spam_OUTpiclist-bouncesTakeThisOuTspammit.edu
> [.....piclist-bouncesKILLspamspam@spam@mit.edu] On Behalf Of Gmail Lists
>
> Is it possible to design a single phase VFD to control speed
> of motors - 220VAC, 1Ph, 50 Hz, 2kW?  The designs I've found
> are controllers for 3 phase motors.
>
I looked into this too, and concluded that the answer is "Yes, but..."
it's far better just to replace the motor. If you live near a large city
there will probably be industrial salvage yards nearby. Here in the
Seattle area, we have Pacific Industrial (maybe others, but that's the
one I'm familiar with). They have an *enormous* pile of used 3ph motors.
Everything from fractional HP up to monster motors, all of them
available for a fraction of the cost of a new motor.

VFD's are available for < $150, the motor should be well under $50. I
doubt you could build a controller for that especially if you value your
time. And, you would have to modify your motors because the centrifugal
start switch must be disabled and replaced with an electronic starting
circuit.

I'm pretty sure this isn't the answer you were hoping to see, but it is
the practical answer. On the bright side, used single-phase motors
having a form factor suitable for home workshop equipment tend to bring
a decent price on eBay. Figure that into your calcuation when you're
deciding what a motor swap will cost.

Regards,
  Glenn Minch

2005\09\24@054321 by Gmail Lists

picon face
> I'm pretty sure this isn't the answer you were hoping to
> see
Yes, it isn't. :-)

I am looking to make a sort of supply unit that puts out
variable frequency at 220VAC. So when I need to grind
welds on corners of a MS box, I run the wheel at high
speeds. When I need to polish SS run the buff at
a much lower speed. When I drill a hole in wood, the drill
is run at high speed and for metals at low speed... Not
individual controllers for each tool but a variable
frequency 'power supply' rated for the biggest and can be
used for the smaller ones.

Mohit.


>> {Original Message removed}

2005\09\24@054358 by Gmail Lists

picon face
Hi Jinx,

> IIRC, the only way was to rectify the AC and then
> convert the HV DC back to AC at the new frequency.
I think I'll look into this direction.

> All of the rest I can use with a pretty standard SCR
> controller
> (I've a gif of the circuit if you want to take a look)
Yes, please.

> I can imagine a 20krpm router bit run at slow
> speed would not do such a clean job,
But a 76 mm bimetal hole saw fitted on a hand drill ought
to run at 115 RPM for MS, 55 RPM for SS, 170 for Aluminum
and 1800 RPM for wood (according to manufacturer's
datasheet).

Thanks,
Mohit.



{Original Message removed}

2005\09\24@061939 by Jinx

face picon face
> welds on corners of a MS box, I run the wheel at high
> speeds. When I need to polish SS run the buff at
> a much lower speed

You have to watch the tool's cooling too. My drill for example
gets very hot at slow speed because the fan can't move enough
air through the motor. If anything has to be done slowly for a
long time I try to find a way to do it with either the drill press,
lathe or cordless drill, if it's practical

2005\09\24@064501 by Jinx

face picon face
part 1 151 bytes content-type:text/plain; (decoded 7bit)

> > (I've a gif of the circuit if you want to take a look)

> Yes, please.

>From ETI Australia, 4/83



part 2 19035 bytes content-type:image/gif; (decode)


part 3 35 bytes content-type:text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
(decoded 7bit)

2005\09\24@180349 by Denny Esterline

picon face
> > welds on corners of a MS box, I run the wheel at high
> > speeds. When I need to polish SS run the buff at
> > a much lower speed
>
> You have to watch the tool's cooling too. My drill for example
> gets very hot at slow speed because the fan can't move enough
> air through the motor. If anything has to be done slowly for a
> long time I try to find a way to do it with either the drill press,
> lathe or cordless drill, if it's practical

Plus not all motors have their speed controlled by frequency. For example, a
hand drill and circular saw have brush motors, the speed is controlled by
the design of the motor and load, not the powerline freq. In fact they run
quite happily on rectified and filtered DC.

-Denny

2005\09\24@181614 by GM

picon face


> -----Original Message-----
> From: piclist-bouncesspamKILLspammit.edu
> [.....piclist-bouncesKILLspamspam.....mit.edu] On Behalf Of Gmail Lists
>
> I am looking to make a sort of supply unit that puts out
> variable frequency at 220VAC. So when I need to grind welds
> on corners of a MS box, I run the wheel at high speeds. When
> I need to polish SS run the buff at a much lower speed. When
> I drill a hole in wood, the drill is run at high speed and
> for metals at low speed... Not individual controllers for
> each tool but a variable frequency 'power supply' rated for
> the biggest and can be used for the smaller ones.
>
> Mohit.

Your plan is doomed to fail. I wish that weren't true, because then I'd
have exactly that setup running in my shop right now, and there'd be
thousands of other guys doing the same thing. Then it would be easy to
find the info you're looking for, along with commercial products to make
such an arrangement easy to implement.

One place where you can find lots of info about machine tool motor
control is at http://www.practicalmachinist.com. Search the RFC/VFD forum. This
discussion would be on topic in that forum. Many of the folks there are
extremely knowledgeable. Some of them are engineers who make their
livings from motor controls. Others are machine shop operators and
industrial maintenance operators. They know their stuff because they
have hands-on experience with a wide range of applications. They will
give you all the detailed technical reasons why your plan is not
practical.

This is bordering on an OT discussion, if it's not there already, so I
shall say no more. Good luck, whatever you decide to do.

Glenn Minch




2005\09\26@071142 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>I am looking to make a sort of supply unit that puts out
>variable frequency at 220VAC. So when I need to grind
>welds on corners of a MS box, I run the wheel at high
>speeds. When I need to polish SS run the buff at
>a much lower speed. When I drill a hole in wood, the drill
>is run at high speed and for metals at low speed... Not
>individual controllers for each tool but a variable
>frequency 'power supply' rated for the biggest and can be
>used for the smaller ones.

If you really need a VFR, then I think you have the wrong tool for doing
variable speed things. You will be better off using a tool with a
"universal" motor, and a triac speed control that adjusts the phase angle of
the voltage fed to the motor.

2005\09\26@130239 by Bob J

picon face
I had a similar problem. My lathe had a single phase 2hp motor, but I wanted
to change speeds without moving the belt. When the motor gave up I replaced
it with a surplus 2hp 90V DC treadmill motor, and bought a KB Electronics DC
motor drive. The motor is a little bit noisier than the AC motor it replaced
but being able to change speeds with a knob has been wonderful. I had to
make a new mount for the motor and the total cost of the setup was around
$60. I really like the new setup and am going to convert some of my other
machine tools over to DC motors.

Regards,
Bob

On 9/23/05, Gmail Lists <EraseMEmohit.listsspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTgmail.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>

2005\09\28@045611 by Chen Xiao Fan

face
flavicon
face
More than 12 years ago I was taught that DC motor drive was dying and
would be dead soon. And indeed I no longer find any paper describing
DC motor drive in major IEEE journals (IEEE Transactions on Industry
Automation, Power Electronics and Industrial Electronics) after that.

Now I hear that people are using DC motor to replace AC motors.
Interesting world.

Yes the DC motor drive is much easier than AC motors.

Regards,
Xiaofan

{Original Message removed}

2005\09\28@170035 by Martin Klingensmith

flavicon
face
Chen Xiao Fan wrote:

>More than 12 years ago I was taught that DC motor drive was dying and
>would be dead soon. And indeed I no longer find any paper describing
>DC motor drive in major IEEE journals (IEEE Transactions on Industry
>Automation, Power Electronics and Industrial Electronics) after that.
>
>Now I hear that people are using DC motor to replace AC motors.
>Interesting world.
>
>Yes the DC motor drive is much easier than AC motors.
>
>Regards,
>Xiaofan
>
>  
>

Many people still use DC in their electric vehicle conversions because
less silicon is necessary (cheaper controller) and high power series
motors are easier to come by than 3-phase AC.

Here is a DC motor controller that does 2000 amps at 400v:
<http://www.cafeelectric.com>

As a side note, this is a battery charger that can put out 50 amps at 450v:
<www.manzanitamicro.com/chargers3.htm>
In PFC-boosted topology!

--
Martin Klingensmith
http://wwia.org/
http://nnytech.net/

2005\09\29@210418 by Chen Xiao Fan

face
flavicon
face
Speaking of electric vehicles, are there any commercial
models available now? It was a hot topic in the power
electronics world once upon a time.

One of my friend, an Intersil engineer but later changed
gear to study dancing, once went to an interview at Southern
California Edison. They wanted to explore the possibilities
to set up charging stations for electrical vehicles. I think
the idea never materialize.

I've seen quite some prototypes of electrical vehicles.
Most of the time they stays near the charging stations
on university campus or company research centers...

2000A at 400V, that is a lot of power! I've seen some
electric vehicle power controllers (10s of Kw or more,
I can not remember) in the GM advanced research centers
in Torrence. Pretty impressive design. The communication
and diagnosis system as well as SMPS control are using
DSPs+MCUs. It is said the inductor design is one of
the most difficult. The cooling system and EMC things
are also not easy.

Regards,
Xiaofan

{Original Message removed}

2005\09\30@040856 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>Speaking of electric vehicles, are there any
>commercial models available now? It was a hot
>topic in the power electronics world once upon a time.

There was an electric sports car demonstrated at the car show in Monaco at
the time of the last Monaco Grand Prix. It was also run in the hill climb at
the Goodwood Festival of Speed. My understanding is that you can buy one,
but they are not cheap. It apparently has some pretty good performance, as
it uses a fibreglass body to help keep the weight down.

2005\09\30@150738 by Howard Winter

face
flavicon
picon face
Xiaofan,

On Fri, 30 Sep 2005 09:04:11 +0800, Chen Xiao Fan wrote:

> Speaking of electric vehicles, are there any commercial
> models available now? It was a hot topic in the power
> electronics world once upon a time.

I saw some in Southern California about two years ago, being demonstrated in the carpark of Fry's in Fountain
Valley.  They must have sold some, because they installed charging points there, that owners can use free.  I
believe they're still there.

Perhaps James could check out his local Fry's next time he's there - see if they have the charging points.

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2005\09\30@175707 by Martin Klingensmith

flavicon
face
There are many charging stations out in southern California from what I
hear on the EV discussion list. Many people do their own conversions. It
would offend many people for me to say so, but all of the electric
vehicles available commercially are small "golf cart" type light weight
low speed cars. Once the political spectrum changed regarding
emissions-free vehicles, car manufacturers called in all of their EVs to
be crushed. The Toyota 4-Runner EV made it out "alive" I believe. The
EV1 (any others?) got crushed. The amount of money required has brought
many good-hearted manufacturing startup ideas back down to the ground.


Chen Xiao Fan wrote:

>Speaking of electric vehicles, are there any commercial
>models available now? It was a hot topic in the power
>electronics world once upon a time.
>
>  
>

--
Martin Klingensmith
http://wwia.org/
http://nnytech.net/

2005\09\30@191739 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
I lived in Southern California during 2002 to 2003 and I saw some small
EVs insider University of California Irvine and some outside GM' Torrence
Advanced Research Center. I had been to the two Fry's near to Irvine but I
did not remember there was a charging station. I did hear that Southern
Califronia Edison had a plan to set up charging station along the Pacific
Coast Highway or some other places but I think the plan was scarpped.

I think now the direction is more on the hybrid type. The battery powered
EV is not so easy now. The only remote chance is that the oil price continue
to rise (at least US$120 per barrel) and then maybe this type of EV got a
chance. Fuel Cell may come to rescue of battery powered EVs but I think
it is still far away from commercially viable.


Regards,
Xiaofan

On 10/1/05, Howard Winter <HDRWspamspam_OUTh2org.demon.co.uk> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

2005\09\30@193848 by marcel

flavicon
face
There used to be charging stations by the "Alternative Fuel Vehicles Parking
Only" spots at the Sunnyvale, CA Fry's, but I don't think they're there
anymore, either.


Xiaofan Chen <@spam@xiaofancKILLspamspamgmail.com> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

in
> the carpark of Fry's in Fountain
> > Valley.  They must have sold some, because they installed charging points
> there, that owners can use free.  I
> > believe they're still there.
> >
> > Perhaps James could check out his local Fry's next time he's there - see
if
{Quote hidden}

2005\09\30@200527 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face

On Sep 30, 2005, at 2:56 PM, Martin Klingensmith wrote:
>
>> Speaking of electric vehicles, are there any commercial
>> models available now?

> all of the electric vehicles available commercially are small
> "golf cart" type light weight low speed cars.

Small and lightweight perhaps, but not necessarily slow.  A friend
of mine has a "Sparrow", which has a tops speed of about 70mph.  It's
rather weird looking on the freeway, but it does keep up (with the
speed limit, anyway.)

http://www.sparrowelectriccars.com/

I think it qualifies as 'commercial', but probably not mass-produced.

BillW

2005\09\30@203735 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
www.electricdrive.org/

All the major car manufacturers are developing the hybrid now.
>From the feature: Ford, Porsche, BMW, DaimlerChrysler,
GM.

All of them perhaps have big research program on fuel cell,
42V vehicle power "bus" and some high speed protocol to
replace CAN or similar but all that is future. GE and
Siemens and some others also have big interests in
this kind of things. I hear that GE's NY research center
(Schenectady, near to Albany, the state capital)
is doing some very advanced research on this field.


Regards,
Xiaofan


'[EE] VFD for 1 phase AC motor'
2005\10\01@011645 by Martin Klingensmith
flavicon
face
Xiaofan Chen wrote:

>http://www.electricdrive.org/
>
>All the major car manufacturers are developing the hybrid now.
>>From the feature: Ford, Porsche, BMW, DaimlerChrysler,
>GM.
>
>All of them perhaps have big research program on fuel cell,
>42V vehicle power "bus" and some high speed protocol to
>replace CAN or similar but all that is future. GE and
>Siemens and some others also have big interests in
>this kind of things. I hear that GE's NY research center
>(Schenectady, near to Albany, the state capital)
>is doing some very advanced research on this field.
>
>
>Regards,
>Xiaofan
>
>  
>
The 42v bus IMO is pretty much a non-starter considering all hybrids try
to maximize their voltage. I think the "42v" [36v nominal] system was
first considered when people didn't think hybrids would catch on at all,
but they were contemplating large dynamic electrical loads such as power
steering, A/C.
Fuel cells are the old buzz word to get research money. The fuel cells
themselves are at a reasonable level, but as everyone with half a brain
predicted: noone knows what to do about the non-existent hydrogen
infrastructure.

--
Martin Klingensmith
http://wwia.org/
http://nnytech.net/

More... (looser matching)
- Last day of these posts
- In 2005 , 2006 only
- Today
- New search...