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'[EE] Trolley buses'
2017\10\26@133823 by David C Brown

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There is currently in Europe, though less so in the USA, a great push to
remove hydrocarbon fuelled vehicles from the road and replace them with
electrically powered vehicles.  Thus we are seeing plug in electrical cars,
hybrid cars, hybrid busses, electrical trams.   But there has been no
mention of trolley busses.

In my youth in 1960s Bradford trolley busses were one of the major forms of
public transport.  They were fast and, unlike trams, had a limited degree
of mobility which allowed them to pass vehicles parked on their track.

I would have thought that a modern trolley bus, equipped with auxiliary
batteries, would be a good alternative to a tram, being far more flexible
in its routing..  But there is no proposal to reinstate them any where in
Europe.  I wonder why?


__________________________________________
David C Brown
43 Bings Road
Whaley Bridge
High Peak                           Phone: 01663 733236
Derbyshire                eMail: spam_OUTdcb.homeTakeThisOuTspamgmail.com
SK23 7ND          web: http://www.bings-knowle.co.uk/dcb
<http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~dcb>



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2017\10\26@135753 by Christopher Head

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On October 26, 2017 10:38:19 AM PDT, David C Brown <.....dcb.homeKILLspamspam@spam@gmail.com> wrote:
>I would have thought that a modern trolley bus, equipped with auxiliary
>batteries, would be a good alternative to a tram, being far more
>flexible
>in its routing..  But there is no proposal to reinstate them any where
>in
>Europe.  I wonder why?

I ride a trolley bus for part of my trip to work every morning, so it always really surprises me when I’m reminded that, worldwide, such networks are apparently quite rare. The local buses are pretty comfortable and quieter than the handful of diesels we also have on some routes and for backup. Batteries are equipped, though rarely used. Also the modern ones, on power loss from the poles (or perhaps on loss of physical contact), automatically pull the poles down with strings, so in the event of a derailment (decablement?) in an intersection, the driver need not get out right away to fix the problem but can instead drive to a less busy place first.

Reroutes are rare and usually covered by diesel buses instead, unless a cable route already exists. Probably the most common intentional use of the batteries is when the cables are unusable, due to cable maintenance or nearby building construction work. In that case the transit company will post people at each end of the unusable section to put the poles down and back up, saving the time take for the driver to walk the four bus lengths. It all works pretty well, adding only a handful of seconds to usual travel time.

In most places we don’t have dedicated bus lanes (though there are a few), and buses don’t have legal right of way over other traffic (except that traffic must yield when a bus is leaving a stop), so that’s still a win for trams, as I understand it.

I’m not in Europe, though, so this doesn’t answer your question :)

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2017\10\26@141114 by Clint Jay

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I don't think there's any point, they're not much more flexible than a tram
and considerably less flexible than an eco friendly electric or hybrid
electric bus, I don't think I have  ever seen a tram get held up by a badly
parked car, in Manchester at least.

What would greatly reduce the personal use of cars would be a joined up
transport system like the one run by TfL in London, Manchester at least is
an absolute joke, it's actually cheaper to run a car and an awful lot
faster , not to mention flexible than using public transport for me (and I
do use public transport every day, it take 4 hours to travel 12 miles,
costs the best part of ten pounds a day and is beset by strike action
currently)

On 26 Oct 2017 18:39, "David C Brown" <dcb.homespamKILLspamgmail.com> wrote:

There is currently in Europe, though less so in the USA, a great push to
remove hydrocarbon fuelled vehicles from the road and replace them with
electrically powered vehicles.  Thus we are seeing plug in electrical cars,
hybrid cars, hybrid busses, electrical trams.   But there has been no
mention of trolley busses.

In my youth in 1960s Bradford trolley busses were one of the major forms of
public transport.  They were fast and, unlike trams, had a limited degree
of mobility which allowed them to pass vehicles parked on their track.

I would have thought that a modern trolley bus, equipped with auxiliary
batteries, would be a good alternative to a tram, being far more flexible
in its routing..  But there is no proposal to reinstate them any where in
Europe.  I wonder why?


__________________________________________
David C Brown
43 Bings Road
Whaley Bridge
High Peak                           Phone: 01663 733236
Derbyshire                eMail: .....dcb.homeKILLspamspam.....gmail.com
SK23 7ND          web: http://www.bings-knowle.co.uk/dcb
<http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~dcb>



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2017\10\26@162832 by IVP

face picon face
NZ still has some trolley buses, for a while. They're being
replaced with battery vehicles

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/97509984/wellingtons-electric-trolley-bus-wires-to-start-coming-down-in-a-week

Auckland used to have trolley buses on major roads into the
CBD. I caught one to work. You could pretty much guarantee
that sooner or later the poles would come off and the driver
would have to get out and re-attach them

Auckland rail network has recently been electrified and double-
tracked, the only diesels going past here are freight trains

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2017\10\26@183248 by Sean Breheny

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Here in the Boston, Massachusetts USA area, we have a wide variety of
public transit systems, including trolley buses (I never knew that was the
term for them - I have just called them "buses with overhead electric
wires"). You can see ours in the third picture down, on the right, in the
wikipedia article:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolleybus

Ours have dual electric/diesel power, so they can disconnect from the wires
and drive a long distance. In fact, some of their routes are only partially
electrified.

In general our public transit here in this area is not very convenient.
Traffic is so congested that buses take forever to go even a short
distance. The subway gets very crowded during the commute times and
frequently has breakdowns. A significant portion of the subway operates in
a dual mode (subway and tram). In the tram mode, most of the track runs
down the middle of wide, divided streets with barriers on either side of it
except at intersections. I've never seen parked cars blocking it but I have
seen gridlock in intersections delay it. The few times I have taken it (I
live well outside the city proper in an area which is not serviced by it),
the tram sections have worked well, but I haven't tried those at super busy
times.

Sean


On Thu, Oct 26, 2017 at 4:28 PM, IVP <EraseMEjoecolquittspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTclear.net.nz> wrote:

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2017\10\26@185233 by John Gardner

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Public Transit in the US (where it exists) moves customers @ < 5 mph.

It's become a wash versus private transportation,  financially.

I can't walk that fast anymore,  but the existing systems have become so

unreliable that it is'nt an option .

On 10/26/17, Sean Breheny <shb7spamspam_OUTcornell.edu> wrote:
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2017\10\27@023308 by RussellMc

face picon face

>
> ​
> ​
> Shijiazuang
> ​
> ​ --> ​
> ​
> Shijiaz
> ​h​
> uang​
>

​Bill advised that it was the pollution capital of China. ​


R
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2017\10\27@065610 by alan.b.pearce

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I didn't realise Wellington still had trolley busses, I thought they had got rid of them long ago in favour of diesel busses.

As to the OPs query ...

Problems I have seen with trolley busses is poles coming off at inconvenient times/points (bus has to swing out wide to get around delivery vehicle, poles come off as trying to past max tracking angle, now can't get poles back on wire). I have also seen a bus stopped at an inconvenient point where the poles have come off and one of the poles has managed to go under one overhead wire and above the other one as it swung around in the breeze, shorting the two wires. I didn't see it happen, just the bus waiting for a rescue vehicle to come and unjam the pole (presumably now welded to the wires). This power down must also have stopped a heap more busses from loss of overhead power due to the short.

Secondary considerations are the maintenance of the wires, requiring a specialized vehicle stopped in the middle of traffic thereby holding up everyone else when needing to do emergency repairs. While most maintenance can be done outside peak traffic times it still blocks off a street and curtails services, requiring an alternative transport (diesel bus typically) for the affected area, so an alternative vehicle fleet is still needed - why have two fleets when one will do?

While many of the maintenance problems listed above also apply to trams, they tend to run on dedicated rails which are not normally part of the road area also designated for vehicle traffic, so doesn't have as great an impact.. Also the problems in the first paragraph above don't happen.

Also if a bus is going to have batteries, why have trolley poles? With modern battery and electronic drive technology it seems that it is practical to use large enough battery supply for a bus to do a route without the added infrastructure of (what many regard as) ugly overhead wires.

As an aside to this, I heard a story of someone who would take project backup tapes to off-site storage. Easiest route was on a trolley bus, and his favourite seat was at the back of the bus - right above all the high current contactors. Inevitably, one day, use of a backup tape was required - only to find that it was useless because of the magnetic fields from the trolley bus. I could believe this story as I remember people having radios that cut out with the magnetic fields and EMI from the motors when riding trolley busses. This was back in the late 50's and into the 60's, so it was all pretty basic electrical technology, none of the electronic drive with soft start etc. that you get these days.



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2017\10\27@133235 by RussellMc

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On 27 October 2017 at 11:52, John Gardner <KILLspamgoflo3KILLspamspamgmail.com> wrote:


> Public Transit in the US (where it exists) moves customers @ < 5 mph.


Not especially comparable, but:
Location: Shijiazuang.
Russell: How long does it take to get to Beijing?
Bill: 4 hours by road, 2 hours by D-train.

Their long distance high speed trains are awesome.
AFAIR the D trains cruise at about 150+ mph and the newer Z trains at
200-250.
Smooth, quiet, comfortable.


Russell
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2017\10\27@141217 by Bob Blick

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Hi John,

The US is more like 50 different countries. Some states have no public transportation at all. So it's hard to lump them all together with such a blanket statement.

All the public transportation I have used recently was considerably faster than walking, comparable to automobile speed(some faster during commute hours) and also comparable to automobiles cost-wise. Automobiles are not cheap.. I don't know what you drive, but I figure my car costs me $0.75 per mile and it's nothing special. Not counting bridge tolls and parking. Golden Gate Bridge is about $7 to cross southbound. Parking is very expensive, and there's surge pricing in some areas. It cost me $11 to park for 45 minutes the other day. By driving my car I am paying a lot extra for the speed and convenience.

When you have a daily commute, you work with your options and try to choose the best ones. For one of my friends it's riding buses. He's a whiz at it, too, and knows the routes and schedules. For him, it's the easiest and cheapest way to commute. He rides a bike too.

Anyway, you can probably tell that I believe in public transportation :)

Friendly regards,

Bob


________________________________________
From: RemoveMEpiclist-bouncesTakeThisOuTspammit.edu <spamBeGonepiclist-bouncesspamBeGonespammit.edu> on behalf of John Gardner
Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2017 3:52 PM
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
Subject: Re: [EE] Trolley buses

Public Transit in the US (where it exists) moves customers @ < 5 mph.

It's become a wash versus private transportation,  financially.

I can't walk that fast anymore,  but the existing systems have become so

unreliable that it is'nt an option .

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2017\10\27@144307 by Bob Ammerman

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> > Public Transit in the US (where it exists) moves customers @ < 5 mph.

I have to respectfully disagree with this. On a recent trip to Chicago, the
EL moved us much faster than we could have travelled by car. Even the buses
ran often and well.

In Buffalo, where I live, we have very poor public transportation in that
buses run infrequently. However, when you finally do get on the bus, it
moves close to the speed of automobile traffic. I can get downtown in about
30 minutes by car, and 40 by bus.
-- Bob Ammerman
RAm Systems


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2017\10\27@145539 by Christopher Head

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On October 27, 2017 3:56:01 AM PDT, TakeThisOuTalan.b.pearceEraseMEspamspam_OUTstfc.ac.uk wrote:
>Also if a bus is going to have batteries, why have trolley poles? With
>modern battery and electronic drive technology it seems that it is
>practical to use large enough battery supply for a bus to do a route
>without the added infrastructure of (what many regard as) ugly overhead
>wires.

I assume there must be a price difference between enough batteries to go a handful of blocks with limited acceleration and top speed versus enough batteries to go full road speed all day. Our buses do the former. They are definitely older than the modern wave of plug in cars, though, so who knows? Maybe our next fleet will be battery powered.

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2017\10\27@151024 by Van Horn, David

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Indeed.  The Chinese have made tons of high speed rail while we keep doing endless "studies" and laying not one mile of track.


{Original Message removed}

2017\10\27@151359 by Van Horn, David

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face
Just for laughs, I ran a route in google maps between here and a place I go to in Denver.
29 mins by car
1:53 to 2:20 by public transport.
2:31 by bicycle.



{Original Message removed}

2017\10\27@151910 by Clint Jay

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My daily 'commute' takes two hours by bus, I can walk it in one and a half

On 27 Oct 2017 20:14, "Van Horn, David" <RemoveMEdavid.vanhornspamTakeThisOuTbackcountryaccess.com>
wrote:

> Just for laughs, I ran a route in google maps between here and a place I
> go to in Denver.
> 29 mins by car
> 1:53 to 2:20 by public transport.
> 2:31 by bicycle.
>
>
>
> {Original Message removed}

2017\10\27@164913 by David C Brown

picon face
But it is worth considering that time spent walking, driving or cycling is
unproductive.  Whereas travelling on a bus or train you can do a lot of
work.

__________________________________________
David C Brown
43 Bings Road
Whaley Bridge
High Peak                           Phone: 01663 733236
Derbyshire                eMail: dcb.homeEraseMEspam.....gmail.com
SK23 7ND          web: http://www.bings-knowle.co.uk/dcb
<http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~dcb>



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On 27 October 2017 at 20:19, Clint Jay <EraseMEcjaysharpspamgmail.com> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

> > {Original Message removed}

2017\10\27@171353 by John Gardner

picon face
Until recently I lived in San Diego - In 2002 I quit driving for

medical reasons;  a very pleasant ramification of this was

discovering how well local Public Transit then worked ...

Came the Great Leap Forward of 2009.  Fares doubled, and

then doubled again. Service was cut in half,  and became

unreliable - One notices these things from the bully pulpit of a

wheelchair.

The point is - I have no axe to grind with Public Transit - I was

rather a fan,  in fact.  Was.



On 10/27/17, Clint Jay <RemoveMEcjaysharpEraseMEspamEraseMEgmail.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>> {Original Message removed}

2017\10\27@172238 by John Gardner

picon face
One might suppose that walking & cycling are "unproductive".

I submit that an hour or so a day of physical activity is liable to

improve productivity...

At least until you get flattened by some cell-phone wielding

motorist...





On 10/27/17, John Gardner <RemoveMEgoflo3TakeThisOuTspamspamgmail.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>>> {Original Message removed}

2017\10\28@025216 by David C Brown

picon face
Indeed.  I went too far in saying that walking and cycling are totally
unproductive.   But I stand by that comment when it comes to driving.

The other puzzle about driving is why people buy huge vehicles capable
carrying six people at 100 mph and then use them to carry a single person
to work at a few mph.



__________________________________________
David C Brown
43 Bings Road
Whaley Bridge
High Peak                           Phone: 01663 733236
Derbyshire                eMail: dcb.homeSTOPspamspamspam_OUTgmail.com
SK23 7ND          web: http://www.bings-knowle.co.uk/dcb
<http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~dcb>



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On 27 October 2017 at 22:22, John Gardner <spamBeGonegoflo3STOPspamspamEraseMEgmail.com> wrote:

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> >>> {Original Message removed}

2017\10\28@032105 by IVP

face picon face
> My daily 'commute' takes two hours by bus, I can walk it in
> one and a half

In the morning, about 8am, I'd catch a bus from Auckland CBD
(Symonds St) to an industrial suburb (Otahuhu) some 12km away

As the driver was familiar with pick-ups (none) and drop-offs (none),
often there'd be only 4-5 regulars, he'd just boot it all the way, mostly
over the speed limit, especially on the downhill sections. Seemed like
merely a few minutes to get to work. It was an old rattly stick-shift
Railways diesel bus with attention-getting acceleration and brakes

Coming home was a different matter. I'd try to catch either an earlier
or later bus to avoid the 5pm one, as it would be absolutely chocker
by the time it reached Symonds St, with full seated and strap hangers

And starting off by car 10 minutes earlier can get you ahead of the
rush-hour crawl, so much less stressful

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2017\10\28@032504 by IVP

face picon face
> The other puzzle about driving is why people buy huge vehicles
> capable carrying six people at 100 mph and then use them to
> carry a single person to work at a few mph

People like to think they have some sort of independence I guess,
even if they don't use that vehicle at all during the day at work. So
many could car pool if they got organised, saving parking fees and
running costs. Manys the time I've given someone a lift from a bus
stop. Not so much when I cycle ........ but I would if I could

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2017\10\28@074021 by David C Brown

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I have often though that there should be some very small vehicle for
commuting, something like an enclosed, self balancing motor cycle capable
of carrying two people.

__________________________________________
David C Brown
43 Bings Road
Whaley Bridge
High Peak                           Phone: 01663 733236
Derbyshire                eMail: spamBeGonedcb.homespamKILLspamgmail.com
SK23 7ND          web: http://www.bings-knowle.co.uk/dcb
<http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~dcb>



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On 28 October 2017 at 08:24, IVP <.....joecolquittspam_OUTspamclear.net.nz> wrote:

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2017\10\28@075118 by RussellMc

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On 29 October 2017 at 00:40, David C Brown <TakeThisOuTdcb.home.....spamTakeThisOuTgmail.com> wrote:

> I have often though that there should be some very small vehicle for
> commuting, something like an enclosed, self balancing motor cycle capable
> of carrying two people.
>
> ​I used to find that my numerous unenclosed​, occasionally not
me-balancing motorcycle capable of carrying 2 people (substantially more in
many countries) served well enough for commuting. You had to apply &
deshell the environmental exclusion layer(s) at each end*, but the time
taken was small compared to the mobility and trip time gains.
(I learned how to exclude rain and most of the coolth on trips of any
sensible length (100 km +) .

Main disadvantage these days is people with much larger and solider
vehicles trying to simultaneously occupy the same road space.


   Russell
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2017\10\28@092129 by alan.b.pearce

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> But it is worth considering that time spent walking, driving or cycling is
> unproductive.  Whereas travelling on a bus or train you can do a lot of work.

Guess that depends on the meaning of 'unproductive'. It may well be more productive to have the cardiac workout of the walk than sitting in some form of transport (I'm excluding a pushbike here).



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2017\10\28@093232 by alan.b.pearce

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> I have often though that there should be some very small vehicle for
> commuting, something like an enclosed, self balancing motor cycle capable of
> carrying two people.

I could quite easily use something like an electric Smart Car for my 15 minute back road commute. Biggest problem is that would be about all it is good for, trying to go on holiday in it would be hopeless.



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2017\10\28@114136 by IVP

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>I have often though that there should be some very small vehicle for
> commuting, something like an enclosed, self balancing motor cycle
> capable of carrying two people

Did you ever see the Carver on Top Gear ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carver_(automobile)

At 30k euro (NZ$51k) I'm not surprised it didn't take off, and
particularly wouldn't with commuters. Compare $51k with a small
scooter at ~ NZ$1500 or something simple like a tuk tuk


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2017\10\28@124709 by Harold Hallikainen

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> I have often though that there should be some very small vehicle for
> commuting, something like an enclosed, self balancing motor cycle capable
> of carrying two people.
>

Since I'm now working from home, my commute is quite short. Earlier this
week when the discussion started, I was reading it on a Denver CO light
rail coming back from a trade show. We were going about 70 MPH passing all
the cars of the freeway. It works quite well. One thing I've always
thought could be done with trains, whether commuter or long distance,
would be to have a self-powered train car at each station. People wanting
to get on the train would board this car. People on the train who wanted a
particular stop would get into the last car. As the train approached the
station, the last car would disconnect and roll into the station. The car
that was in the station would then catch up with the train and join it.
Passengers not wanting the next stop would move into the rest of the
train. What slows trains down, in my opinion, is all the stops. This would
avoid that delay.

Harold



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2017\10\28@130625 by David C Brown

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Yes.  As I have already said I exclude walking from that criticism.  Some
of my most productive thinking is done whilst walking.

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On 28 October 2017 at 14:21, <.....alan.b.pearcespamRemoveMEstfc.ac.uk> wrote:

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2017\10\28@131012 by David C Brown

picon face
Back in my youth British mail trains had a sytem for picking up mail bags
without stopping https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UN9GxmtfX90
Surely this could be adapted to pick up passengers  :-)

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On 28 October 2017 at 17:05, Harold Hallikainen <spamBeGoneharold@spam@spamspam_OUThallikainen.com>
wrote:

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2017\10\28@135119 by RussellMc

face picon face

On 29 October 2017 at 06:10, David C Brown <TakeThisOuTdcb.homespamspamgmail.com> wrote:

> Back in my youth British mail trains had a sytem for picking up mail bags
> without stopping https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UN9GxmtfX90
> Surely this could be adapted to pick up passengers  :-)
>
> ​It can even be done using an aircraft for passenger ​pickup from the
ground.

An aircraft "intercepts" a balloon lofted cable and the 'payload' is
'gently' lifted, initially vertically and then increasingly horizontally
and winched into the aircraft.
It actually works - see video below.

​Project skyhook -

https://www.cia.gov/news-information/featured-story-archive/2012-featured-story-archive/skyhook.html

Video.
17m - but an equipment pickup example in the 1st minute.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkNiOjJvlS4


User instruction sheets -  !!!! - :-) - !!!!


https://www.cia.gov/news-information/featured-story-archive/2012-featured-story-archive/images/skyhookfront.jpg/image.jpg


https://www.cia.gov/news-information/featured-story-archive/2012-featured-story-archive/images/skyhookback.jpg/image.jpg



Many (often) interesting references:

www.google.co.nz/search?num=50&ei=DMD0Wa3pBsmk8QW8mqToAw&q=project+skyhook+%2Bfulton&oq=project+skyhook+%2Bfulton&gs_l=psy-ab.3...364623.369131.0.370081.8.8.0.0.0.0.226.1691.2-8.8.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..0.2.446...0j0i22i30k1.0.Og0G-KoBaNU
​


​NOT this project

https://wiki2.org/en/Skyhook_balloon+Milds

​
​    Russell
​
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2017\10\28@162404 by Isaac M. Bavaresco

picon face

Dr. Robert L. Forward wrote in a book about a skyhook/beanstalk that
would transfer cargo to/from space using a giant ferris-wheel-like
device that have its center of mass orbiting earth and three spokes that
reach ground.

The wheel spins synchronously with its orbit, so the spokes touches
ground always at the same three "stations". the end of the spokes have a
telescopic attachment mechanism to pick/release the cargo or passenger pods.

He cites that the relative movement of the end of the spokes with earth
is slow when they are close to the stations, and with the telescopic
extremities it would allow around three minutes for the pick-up procedure.

After the three minutes, it would be a hell of a slingshot.

Cheers,

Isaac



Em 28/10/2017 15:50, RussellMc escreveu:
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2017\10\28@175847 by John Ferrell

face
flavicon
face

I must go for now, but this would be a good place for a trivia scholar
to explain what a "jerk water" town is.

Lions Club fundraiser demands my services.


On 10/28/2017 1:50 PM, RussellMc wrote:
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   Julian NC 27283
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than with a crowd going the wrong direction.
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2017\10\28@183422 by alan.b.pearce

face picon face
> Back in my youth British mail trains had a sytem for picking up mail bags
> without stopping https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UN9GxmtfX90
> Surely this could be adapted to pick up passengers  :-)
> >
> > I've always thought could be done with trains, whether commuter or
> > long distance, would be to have a self-powered train car at each
> > station. People wanting to get on the train would board this car.
> > People on the train who wanted a particular stop would get into the
> > last car. As the train approached the station, the last car would
> > disconnect and roll into the station. The car that was in the station would
> then catch up with the train and join it.
> > Passengers not wanting the next stop would move into the rest of the
> > train. What slows trains down, in my opinion, is all the stops. This
> > would avoid that delay.

I surprised David didn't mention that British railways (back in the days of steam trains) had what were known as 'slip coaches' which did almost exactly this. The last coach on the train would be uncoupled and then a guard on the slip coach would apply braking to bring the coach to a halt in the station. Once everyone had got off the local shunting engine would move the coach into a local siding. I never saw them in operation, just seen descriptions in books. I don't know how the coaches were picked on the return journey, which had to involve a stopping train, I guess it would be possible to load the coach on a side platform, then when the train came along couple the full coach to the train.

There was a certain amount of danger to the process of slipping a coach from the train, and a considerable amount of skill on the part of the guard to uncouple the coach at the right place and then get the braking just right to stop in the platform, especially in some of the pea-souper fogs that abounded in the UK back then. I was reading a piece recently where the guard on the slip coach was describing exactly this problem. If you didn't stop in the station then no-one knew where the coach was, had it not uncoupled, had it not made the station, or had it had some other problem? Any of these could result in a blocked line which had the potential to result in a significant accident.



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2017\10\28@185939 by David C Brown

picon face
The lip coach, whist it operate up into the 1950s, seems to defy one of the
basic principles of railway safety: block working.  In normal operation
trains are passed from block to block by the signal man with the block
behind the train being marked as safe.  But if a train sheds a coach
essentially at random how does the signal man clear his signals?

__________________________________________
David C Brown
43 Bings Road
Whaley Bridge
High Peak                           Phone: 01663 733236
Derbyshire                eMail: @spam@dcb.homeRemoveMEspamEraseMEgmail.com
SK23 7ND          web: http://www.bings-knowle.co.uk/dcb
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On 28 October 2017 at 23:34, <EraseMEalan.b.pearcespam@spam@stfc.ac.uk> wrote:

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'[EE] Trolley buses'
2017\11\01@091801 by rossano gobbi
picon face
Interesting thanks. A problem with this has been pointed out by David. Another is that you could only leave the train. Coupling a coach on a running train would be very dangerous. With some very sofisticated help from technology (or some late 18th century boldness :-)) it could surely be done, but it would need to be failproof and the space needed to do it would be great, increasing proportionally with the running train's speed. Surely undoable in cities or urban areas.

These days a modern train can stop and restart in very few seconds, thanks to the traction tecnology but also to the train and platform designs. It's even faster for trams and such.
Besides the fact that a decrease in the trains running times would mean more trains but then you would have to find the $$$ to buy those trains, the technology to allow them to run faster, the place to build the needed infrastructure, the terminal stations where to fit them in, etc... Actually, these are today's problems. Trains could perform better, but the infrastructure can't handle them. Old (or new old-style-built) tracks designs, old block systems, single track lines, no place/no money/no political will to build new infrastructure...

Greetings from Switzerland, land of trolley buses...
Rossano

Il giorno 29 ott 2017, alle ore 00:34, <@spam@alan.b.pearcespam_OUTspam.....stfc.ac.uk> <spamBeGonealan.b.pearceEraseMEspamstfc.ac.uk> ha scritto:

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2017\11\01@123613 by Van Horn, David

flavicon
face


Interesting thanks. A problem with this has been pointed out by David. Another is that you could only leave the train. Coupling a coach on a running train would be very dangerous. With some very sofisticated help from technology (or some late 18th century boldness :-)) it could surely be done, but it would need to be failproof and the space needed to do it would be great, increasing proportionally with the running train's speed. Surely undoable in cities or urban areas.


For fun, I recommend "The roads must roll" by Robert Heinlein

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2017\11\01@130535 by Denny Esterline

picon face
Not sure I understand the concern here. Absolutely, coupling rail cars at
speed would be a big problem with existing rail equipment. I didn't see
that requirement in the list :-)

If you "squint and turn your head a bit" this is what's being discussed as
the future of self driving cars. Automatically merge and separate from
other traffic. Follow very (very) close at speed.
I would think that doing it on a fixed track would simplify the process by
removing several variables.

On Wed, Nov 1, 2017 at 6:17 AM, rossano gobbi <
straighttowardsextinctionspamBeGonespamgmail.com> wrote:

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2017\11\01@135855 by RussellMc

face picon face

On 2 November 2017 at 02:17, rossano gobbi <
.....straighttowardsextinctionRemoveMEspamgmail.com> wrote:

>
> These days a modern train can stop and restart in very few seconds, thanks
> to the traction tecnology but also to the train and platform designs. It's
> even faster for trams and such.
>

​Warning: No trolley buses were mentioned in the writing of the following
post:​

​A few years ago I measured the off-peak door-open-time of Singapore inner
city (all of Singapore is inner city ? :-) ) urban rail .
Exact figure does not surface from brain yet, but I think is was in the 10
seconds range. (May have been 15+ but definitely under 20s)
Actual door open/close is fast so that's the time available for passengers
to get in and out.
During peak periods this could be much extended.

I was impressed with Mumbai urban rail. I don't know if they had a fixed
timetable to keep to, but trains came so frequently that it was not a major
issue for me. Under 5 minutes between trains.
Some were not all-stations and there were fast and slow trains. This was
signposted if you knew where to look.
Door open times were much longer than Singapore (and in many ases there
were no doors) BUT it rolled when it rolled (with due warning) and unlike
some systems where one passenger stuck in a door  or loitering MAY delay
the whole process, here they didn't.
Run jump and wedge in was SOP and due to the low separations between
carriage and obstacles,at some stations you had a very limited time to be
essentially-all-inside-carriage or you died. At my local station it was
about 15 seconds and the tight packed masses had no objection to the old
guy on the outside fighting his way in - better than picking up bodies I
guess :-).
(About 3 people/day die on Mumbai rail, but a fair % of those are illegal
track crossers) .


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2017\11\01@141711 by David C Brown

picon face
A good story which I first read fifty years ago.  But even then I had
severe doubts about how the belt tension could be controlled. And the
potential worst case accident would overtake ant research into rocketry

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Derbyshire                eMail: .....dcb.homeSTOPspamspam@spam@gmail.com
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On 1 November 2017 at 16:36, Van Horn, David <
david.vanhornEraseMEspam@spam@backcountryaccess.com> wrote:

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2017\11\02@035356 by rossano gobbi

picon face
Yes, probably, but people (on this part of the world) are very much inclined to accept a certain risk when going by car and accidents are accepted as part of the process. Railway accidents on the other part are not well seen, as the rail is deemed "safe". As a consequence any rail application of stuff that works and is already used on the road (e.g. obstacle detection) must at the moment go trough SIL processes that take time and money. This will eventually disappear in the future when we'll have a safe enough road traffic (will we?) and the two will be comparable in terms of safety.
Moving block systems for example are in development and maybe already in use on light rail applications, but still nobody thinks of letting go the good old braking distance, while when you drive your car the person behind you probably already does!

To add to this there's the fact that you need to find the reasons to justify coupling and uncoupling moving coaches/trains, since rail traffic is much different from road traffic.

Something regarding trolley buses: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_trolleybus_systems_in_Switzerland :-)


Rossano

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2017\11\02@083751 by David C Brown

picon face
I think that it is more down to risk perception than risk acceptance.  When
driving a car the driver feels that she is in control, thats he is in a
position to  avoid and mitigate accidents.  Whereas, on public transport
you are putting your safety in the hands of other people who you do not
know.

The increase in road accidents after 9/11 when people no longer trusted the
airlines to transport them safely bears this observation out.

__________________________________________
David C Brown
43 Bings Road
Whaley Bridge
High Peak                           Phone: 01663 733236
Derbyshire                eMail: spamBeGonedcb.homeKILLspamspam@spam@gmail.com
SK23 7ND          web: http://www.bings-knowle.co.uk/dcb
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