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'[EE] Three phase induction motors'
2004\09\27@074217 by Rodrigo Real

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Hi guys

I am working in a speed controller using a PIC for a three-phase
induction motor.

I would like to have low voltage (48V, 24V, 12V) 3-phase motors, but I
could not find it. Is there any technical problem of building such low
voltage 3-phase motor?

Rodrigo
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2004\09\27@093903 by Morgan Olsson

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Rodrigo Real 13:42 2004-09-27:

>Hi guys
>
>I am working in a speed controller using a PIC for a three-phase
>induction motor.
>
>I would like to have low voltage (48V, 24V, 12V) 3-phase motors, but I
>could not find it. Is there any technical problem of building such low
>voltage 3-phase motor?

Just that the market for general standard types is low.
I have seen special designs used, in the french Pellenc electric (what is the word for: tool to cut parts of trees and bushes)  the motor fit in the handle, on your back you carry 24V NiMH and motor driver

Ideas:

1) If only a few needed, you can go to a motor repair shop and let them (re) wind one for you.  Maybe they can even reconnect windings for lower voltage without making new winding.

2) Or, use a step-up power converter to use a standard motor.

3) I have seen small 24VAC capacotir motors.  They are effectively 2-phase motors.
Maybe you can make a 2-phase motor controller instead of 3-phase?

... and please tell me if you DO find low voltage 3-phase motors!


/Morgan
--
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2004\09\27@111340 by William Chops Westfield

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On Sep 27, 2004, at 6:38 AM, Morgan Olsson wrote:

>> I would like to have low voltage (48V, 24V, 12V) 3-phase motors, but I
>> could not find it. Is there any technical problem of building such low
>> voltage 3-phase motor?

You can find these for model aircraft ("brushless electric motors") and
cars, and as the spindle driver for most HDD and CD drives in your
computer (12V-ish.)  There's even a sect that rewinds CD motors for
higher power use in airplanes...

BillW


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2004\09\27@123850 by Rodrigo Real

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William "Chops" Westfield <spam_OUTwestfwTakeThisOuTspammac.com> writes:

> On Sep 27, 2004, at 6:38 AM, Morgan Olsson wrote:
>
>>> I would like to have low voltage (48V, 24V, 12V) 3-phase motors, but I
>>> could not find it. Is there any technical problem of building such low
>>> voltage 3-phase motor?
>
> You can find these for model aircraft ("brushless electric motors") and
> cars, and as the spindle driver for most HDD and CD drives in your
> computer (12V-ish.)  There's even a sect that rewinds CD motors for
> higher power use in airplanes...

I didn't said that, but I need this motor with more power, let's say
something about 2.5HP.

Rodrigo
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2004\09\27@125852 by Rodrigo Real

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Morgan Olsson <.....dlistKILLspamspam@spam@morgansreglerteknik.se> writes:


Hi Morgan

{Quote hidden}

I talked to a guy who works in a place like this, and he told me that
maybe I would have problems with the conductors of the rotor, he said
that it probably should be recalculated. I don't know if this is true,
I am mostly a computers guy, but it seemed to make sense to me.

>
> 2) Or, use a step-up power converter to use a standard motor.
>

I think it won't be a good choice for me, the price could the higher
than we want.

> 3) I have seen small 24VAC capacotir motors.  They are effectively 2-phase motors.
> Maybe you can make a 2-phase motor controller instead of 3-phase?

This is an option, but this motors are not very common also, I have
never seem one of this...

>
> ... and please tell me if you DO find low voltage 3-phase motors!
>

If I find something I will post here.

Thanks for the help by now.

Rodrigo

>
> /Morgan
> --
> Morgan Olsson, Kivik, Sweden
>
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2004\09\27@133456 by Spehro Pefhany

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At 08:13 AM 9/27/2004 -0700, you wrote:
>On Sep 27, 2004, at 6:38 AM, Morgan Olsson wrote:
>
>>>I would like to have low voltage (48V, 24V, 12V) 3-phase motors, but I
>>>could not find it. Is there any technical problem of building such low
>>>voltage 3-phase motor?
>
>You can find these for model aircraft ("brushless electric motors") and
>cars, and as the spindle driver for most HDD and CD drives in your
>computer (12V-ish.)  There's even a sect that rewinds CD motors for
>higher power use in airplanes...
>
>BillW

Most of these BLDC motors are PM, not induction, no?

Best regards,

Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..."            "The Journey is the reward"
speffspamKILLspaminterlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com




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2004\09\27@134117 by Support - KF4HAZ

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> I would like to have low voltage (48V, 24V, 12V) 3-phase motors, but I
> could not find it. Is there any technical problem of building such low
>voltage 3-phase motor?
>
>
> I didn't said that, but I need this motor with more power, let's say
> something about 2.5HP.

Three phase or Single phase 2.5HP is asking alot for a low voltage system
Very Roughly 120 Amps at 12V 60 Amps at 24 or 30 Amps at 48V
If I need 2.5HP I would think 120V minimum 240V preferred,
at 120V roughly 12 Amps, 240V around 6 Amps.

KF4HAZ - Lonnie

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2004\09\27@164944 by Ivan Kocher
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If you __really__ need a 12/24/48 volt motor, use a regular 110 or 220
motor and a tri-phase transformer the will step-up from your voltaje to
the motor's voltaje.

Remember, a tri-phase transformer can be built as three separate single
phase transformers, which you can buy "easy" or mae yourself.


I think that the problem you are tring to solve is the high currents
involved in you system... with this you get the motor power and the high
driving currents.



Ivan Kocher
-------------

Rodrigo Real wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2004\09\27@171648 by Rodrigo Real

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Ivan Kocher <.....ikocherKILLspamspam.....ice.co.cr> writes:

> If you __really__ need a 12/24/48 volt motor, use a regular 110 or 220
> motor and a tri-phase transformer the will step-up from your voltaje
> to the motor's voltaje.
>
> Remember, a tri-phase transformer can be built as three separate
> single phase transformers, which you can buy "easy" or mae yourself.

This can be a good idea, the main problem that I have is that I work
with batteries, so high voltages sometimes are not very easy to
obtain in the physical space we have.

> I think that the problem you are tring to solve is the high currents
> involved in you system... with this you get the motor power and the
> high driving currents.

This is a real problem I have, specially with the DC motor controllers.

Rodrigo


{Quote hidden}

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2004\09\27@200322 by Martin Klingensmith

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Rodrigo Real wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Have you seen the eTek motor?
http://www.evparts.com
It comes with an integrated controller.
You are not likely to find any other low voltage AC motor at that power
level. AC systems are usually done at a higher voltage.

--
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Martin Klingensmith
http://infoarchive.net/
http://nnytech.net/
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2004\09\27@211841 by William Chops Westfield

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On Sep 27, 2004, at 9:38 AM, Rodrigo Real wrote:

>> You can find these for model aircraft ("brushless electric motors")
>> and
>> cars, and as the spindle driver for most HDD and CD drives in your
>> computer (12V-ish.)
>
> I didn't said that, but I need this motor with more power, let's say
> something about 2.5HP.
>
Ouch.  I think 2.5HP at 12V is well up into "scary" current.  It may
be that at that power it makes sense to step up the voltage in the
3-phase controller, rather than running the motor itself at low
voltage.  Inverters and speed controllers are "well understood"
technology, I dunno about multi-hundred-amp motor windings in
reasonably sized packages :-)  The airplane motors I mentioned
are rated strictly in amps, so it's a bit difficult to estimate
actual power.  But a motor that draws 50A from up to 24 NiCd cells
and needs a heatsink for its case is pretty impressive...

BillW

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2004\09\27@221527 by Stephen R Phillips

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--- Rodrigo Real <rodrigospamspam_OUTfreedom.ind.br> wrote:

>
> This can be a good idea, the main problem that I have is that I work
> with batteries, so high voltages sometimes are not very easy to
> obtain in the physical space we have.
>
  Depends on the batteries you use, and what you use the drive the
motor.  For 240V 3 phase motor you need around 340VDC roughly. This is
of course dangerous.  Your I^2R losses go down and you can achieve
higher power, your wiring is a LOT lighter as well.  Are you stuck with
Lead acid? Do you need to use 48VDC?  What type of safety system do you
need?  Etc.
>
> This is a real problem I have, specially with the DC motor
> controllers.
>
> Rodrigo
>
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/osmc/

Try the OSMC group they have lots of people working on similiar things.

Stephen R. Phillips


               
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2004\09\28@044022 by Morgan Olsson

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Rodrigo Real 18:58 2004-09-27:
>Morgan Olsson <@spam@dlistKILLspamspammorgansreglerteknik.se> writes:
>
>> 1) If only a few needed, you can go to a motor repair shop and let
>> them (re) wind one for you.  Maybe they can even reconnect windings
>> for lower voltage without making new winding.
>
>I talked to a guy who works in a place like this, and he told me that
>maybe I would have problems with the conductors of the rotor, he said
>that it probably should be recalculated. I don't know if this is true,
>I am mostly a computers guy, but it seemed to make sense to me.

Not terribly hard:
Stupid example: if you today have windings 100 turns 440V 1 A, you can take the same wiretype, ten in parralell, ten turns, achieving 44V 10A spec.

Small parralell wires have lower loss than one big wire of same total area due to induced current loops inside conductor.  (What is the english term?)

>> 2) Or, use a step-up power converter to use a standard motor.
>>
>
>I think it won't be a good choice for me, the price could the higher
>than we want.

A raw HF push-pull no regulaiton design can be pretty compact and not too expensive.

>> 3) I have seen small 24VAC capacotir

that word was ment to be "capacitor"

/Morgan
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2004\09\28@044611 by Morgan Olsson

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Spehro Pefhany 19:48 2004-09-27:
>Most of these BLDC motors are PM, not induction, no?

Yes all high power brusless model motors i have seen have hight strength permanent magnets.

Do look up german(?) manufacturer Plettenberg, and mail them.'

IIRC they have motors up in 2kW range.

Just remember they are very high rpm types to get that power in light weight - ask them about gears if you need lower rpm.  They sell controllers too, naturally.

/Morgan
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2004\09\28@065729 by Rodrigo Real

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Stephen R Phillips <KILLspamcyberman_phillipsKILLspamspamyahoo.com> writes:

> --- Rodrigo Real <RemoveMErodrigoTakeThisOuTspamfreedom.ind.br> wrote:
>
>>
>> This can be a good idea, the main problem that I have is that I work
>> with batteries, so high voltages sometimes are not very easy to
>> obtain in the physical space we have.
>>
>    Depends on the batteries you use, and what you use the drive the
> motor.  For 240V 3 phase motor you need around 340VDC roughly. This is
> of course dangerous.  Your I^2R losses go down and you can achieve
> higher power, your wiring is a LOT lighter as well.  Are you stuck with
> Lead acid?

I am currenlty working with lead acid, but the main problem for having
higher voltages to me is related with the number of batteries I need
to put in the vehicle. We work with lots of sizes of batteries but
still this is a problem. Those batteries are 6V or 12V, so I would need
at least 28 batteries to make 340V.

> Do you need to use 48VDC?

No, I only mentioned 48VDC because we already have this voltage in
some cars, but we could go to higher voltages, maybe 60V or 72V.

Rodrigo
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2004\09\28@074343 by Rodrigo Real

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Morgan Olsson <spamBeGonedlistspamBeGonespammorgansreglerteknik.se> writes:

Hi Morgan

{Quote hidden}

I think I will have to go this way, rewind an old motor like you said,
but what about the conductors of the rotor they don't need to be
changed also? I also think that change the rotor characteristics would
not be so easy.

[]s
Rodrigo
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