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'[EE] Thinking of finishing my degree.....'
2010\11\30@034344 by Vitaliy

face
flavicon
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Mark E. Skeels wrote:
> So what do you guys think of distance learning....say, like this....
>
> http://distance.und.edu/degree/?id=electricalengbs
>
> ...any other ideas......I have less than an associates degree right now,
> so you might say I'm starting from scratch, that was so long ago.

Unless you have a very compelling reason (the specific career you seek calls
for a 4-year degree), my advice is simple: do not waste your time and money..

The quality of education has declined considerably in recent years. Online
classes are a joke. Worsts of all, a college degree has become a commodity;
every idiot has one. Smart employers understand this, and look at what
you've done, and what you know.

If you insist on getting a degree, find a school that offers real,
old-fashioned learning in a room with other students and a live professor.

Best regards,

Vitaliy

2010\11\30@045757 by alan.b.pearce

face picon face
> Mark E. Skeels wrote:
> > So what do you guys think of distance learning....say, like this....
> >
> > distance.und.edu/degree/?id=electricalengbs
> >
> > ...any other ideas......I have less than an associates degree right
now,
> > so you might say I'm starting from scratch, that was so long ago.
>
> Unless you have a very compelling reason (the specific career you seek
calls
> for a 4-year degree), my advice is simple: do not waste your time and
money.
>
> The quality of education has declined considerably in recent years.
Online
> classes are a joke. Worsts of all, a college degree has become a
commodity;
> every idiot has one. Smart employers understand this, and look at what
> you've done, and what you know.
>
> If you insist on getting a degree, find a school that offers real,
> old-fashioned learning in a room with other students and a live
professor.

I wouldn't agree with Vitaliy. I have been doing distance learning
through the Open University in the UK http://www.open.ac.uk for a number
of years now, and so far it has been a very positive experience. The
course work has been good, and well thought out, with only the
occasional niggle. I have had only one tutor that I felt was an 'also
ran', the rest have been excellent, and only too willing to assist when
I got stuck. The only real niggle I have with them is that they have
nothing in electronics courses - lots of computing, IT, etc, but no real
electronics. I have been making noises that with the current trend
towards electric vehicles, and the like, along with starter kits from
companies like Microchip, they should be running courses in closed loop
motor control and the like. They have all the requisite math courses for
the theory, they 'just' need the practical courses.

As with all things, it pays to research the school, if they have
distance learning versions of courses just to try and increase the
student numbers then Vitaliys comments may apply, but a properly set up
distance learning course can be very good.
-- Scanned by iCritical.

2010\11\30@090530 by Olin Lathrop

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Vitaliy wrote:
> Worsts of all, a college degree has become
> a commodity; every idiot has one. Smart employers understand this,
> and look at what you've done, and what you know.

I disagree somewhat.  While it's true anyone can buy a degree online, a real
degree does have some utility.  The bozo who bought a degree will be spotted
in the first 30 seconds of the interview.  It is about what you know, not
what the paper says, but the paper helps you get in the door.

If there are 100 applicants for a engineering job, most will have to be
weeded out with only a few seconds of effort.  That may not be right or fair
or optimum, but is reality when 100 people apply for a single job.  Tossing
the ones without even a BS degree is a obvious shortcut.

However, I'll go further and say I like to hire people with a masters degree
for serious engineering positions.  In my experience, they just work out
better.  I don't think it's the extra education so much, but the character,
passion for the field, and drive to see it thru that is then applied to real
engineering tasks later.


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2010\11\30@092341 by alan.b.pearce

face picon face
> > Worsts of all, a college degree has become
> > a commodity; every idiot has one. Smart employers understand this,
> > and look at what you've done, and what you know.
>
> I disagree somewhat.  While it's true anyone can buy a degree online,
a real
> degree does have some utility.  The bozo who bought a degree will be
spotted
> in the first 30 seconds of the interview.  It is about what you know,
not
> what the paper says, but the paper helps you get in the door.
>
> If there are 100 applicants for a engineering job, most will have to
be
> weeded out with only a few seconds of effort.  That may not be right
or fair
> or optimum, but is reality when 100 people apply for a single job.
Tossing
> the ones without even a BS degree is a obvious shortcut.
>
> However, I'll go further and say I like to hire people with a masters
degree
> for serious engineering positions.  In my experience, they just work
out
> better.  I don't think it's the extra education so much, but the
character,
> passion for the field, and drive to see it thru that is then applied
to real
> engineering tasks later.

My take on the UK situation, where the government decided some years
ago, that everyone should get a university education (yeah right!), is
that with the proliferation of people taking degrees, the 'new degree'
is membership of an appropriate society, such as the IEEE or similar
body.
-- Scanned by iCritical.

2010\11\30@092718 by RussellMc

face picon face
> However, I'll go further and say I like to hire people with a masters degree
> for serious engineering positions.  In my experience, they just work out
> better.  I don't think it's the extra education so much, but the character,
> passion for the field, and drive to see it thru that is then applied to real
> engineering tasks later.

Sounds good. But somehow I still don't think I'd manage to fit in there :-)


       RM   (JoAT.MoEE)

2010\11\30@094304 by Kerry Wentworth

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Me neither

                 KW      (HighSchool.Diploma)


RussellMc wrote:
{Quote hidden}

-- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.289 / Virus Database: 267.11.13 - Release Date: 10/6/05

2010\11\30@094921 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
RussellMc wrote:
> Sounds good. But somehow I still don't think I'd manage to fit in
> there :-)

The commute would certainly be a killer.  Otherwise, it's hard for me to
tell just based on email conversations.  You're obviously a smart guy, know
a lot about electronics, and "get it" when it comes to engineering.  I don't
have a good sense of your firmware skills and how well you take direction.

2010\11\30@181148 by RussellMc

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> I don't have a good sense of ...  how well you take direction.

>From what I can tell, about as well as you do :-).

Probably approximately correct, despite the obvious :-). It "rather
helps" to believe in the direction you are being invited to take.
Direction from a position of authority that is "obviously" [tm]
misconceived can make matters difficult. Not impossible. Just
difficult. My wife may have things to say about my understanding of
the term difficult :-). James knows, too ... :-).

2010\11\30@190047 by Philip Pemberton

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On 30/11/10 08:18, Vitaliy wrote:
> If you insist on getting a degree, find a school that offers real,
> old-fashioned learning in a room with other students and a live professor..

Don't I know it. I'm finishing off an MEng in computer software engineering, and in the past four years it's gone from 'pretty OK' to 'a little rough', and finally (this year) to 'almost unbearable'.

Here are a few gems:

* The "open access" computer lab has now been redesignated as a teaching room. Meaning there's nowhere for Comp Sci students to do assignment work. The computers in the library are locked down tighter than Fort Knox.

* The same comp lab has been "upgraded". All new PCs, shiny new multi-GHz quadcore monsters, running... Windows 7. And the University Monitoring package, which hogs 100% CPU. Unfortunately, 44 PCs running flat-out in a lab that was only meant to run 30 PCs, plus 44 bodies on those PCs... kinda puts a strain on the air conditioning. I've clocked the room temperature at 30-odd Celsius in the early morning. It's gotten so bad, Facilities have turned the heaters off and padlocked the valves shut!

* All of the taught modules for the MEng year are repeats of foundation level modules from the BSc Software Development course. The BSc is a prerequisite for the MEng. Hence, no new material.

* Two courses have been merged: M.Sc. Information Systems and M.Eng. Software Engineering. So we have a database/information systems course mashed in with a software engineering course. Brillant! [sic]

* For bonus points: the percentage of students involved in plagiarism disputes and "academic crime" on the MSc course has consistently above 90% for several years. In the MEng, it's been almost zero SINCE THE COURSE STARTED.

* We have a new Head of Department who arrived from a small college in Oldham and just doesn't give a crap about anything other than "does the Vice-Chancellor like me enough to keep paying me?"  Several (very good) lecturers have either left or transferred to other departments... I had a request for a Copyright Release turned down because he "knew I wasn't going to do anything useful with the code."

* Computing Services outsourced the university email system -- prior to this, a survey was sent out: "do we go with Hotmail or Google?". 89% of students were in favour of Google (the results were posted openly). Head of Computing is a big M$ fanboy, so he put the brakes on that plan and handed the contract to M$. Big surprise, none of the email system works -- you can't connect from off-campus, staff email addresses aren't visible, and -- bonus -- you can't email staff using the new system (emails are rejected by the University mail server).

Even "real" brick-and-mortar universities aren't all they're cracked up to me. If I could hop in a DeLorean, go back five years and give myself one piece of advice, it would be:
  "Don't even think of putting that university on your UCAS form. Apply to Leeds and York instead."

Sorry if this sounded like a rant, but... it is. Natch.

-- Phil.
spam_OUTpiclistTakeThisOuTspamphilpem.me.uk
http://www.philpem.me.uk

2010\11\30@202238 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On Tue, Nov 30, 2010 at 10:06 PM, Olin Lathrop
<.....olin_piclistKILLspamspam@spam@embedinc.com> wrote:

> However, I'll go further and say I like to hire people with a masters degree
> for serious engineering positions.  In my experience, they just work out
> better.  I don't think it's the extra education so much, but the character,
> passion for the field, and drive to see it thru that is then applied to real
> engineering tasks later.
>

Well said. This typically works well from my own experiences.
I am not a manager but as a senior guy in the group I interviewed
quite some people. A master degree holder (either full time or
part time) tends to work out better.

-- Xiaofan

2010\11\30@202823 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On Tue, Nov 30, 2010 at 4:18 PM, Vitaliy <piclistspamKILLspammaksimov.org> wrote:

> The quality of education has declined considerably in recent years. Online
> classes are a joke. Worsts of all, a college degree has become a commodity;
> every idiot has one.

This will depend on the place. Here in Singapore, I do not think online
degree is popular. Part time BS degree is popular though but often they
are not well recognized among big companies.

> Smart employers understand this, and look at what
> you've done, and what you know.
>

That can be true, but typically only for smaller companies.
For bigger companies, it is hard to pass the initial round
of scanning through the resumes (by HR or outside job
agencies). Actually typically an engineer position will
have a requirement for a BS or better degree. So that
non-degree-holder is not even qualified to apply.


-- Xiaofa


'[EE] Thinking of finishing my degree.....'
2010\12\01@060331 by CDB
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face


:: "Don't even think of putting that university on your UCAS form.
:: Apply
:: to Leeds and York instead."

What's wrong with the Open University, or has that gone downhill as well?

(Memories of Dr Allan Solomon with the widest kipper tie to grace television and bell bottoms).

Colin
--
CDB, .....colinKILLspamspam.....btech-online.co.uk on 1/12/2010
Web presence: http://www.btech-online.co.uk   Hosted by:  http://www.justhost.com.au
 

2010\12\01@091209 by Xiaofan Chen

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On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 7:03 PM, CDB <EraseMEcolinspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTbtech-online.co.uk> wrote:
>
> :: "Don't even think of putting that university on your UCAS form.
> :: Apply to Leeds and York instead."
>
> What's wrong with the Open University, or has that gone downhill as well?
>
> (Memories of Dr Allan Solomon with the widest kipper tie to grace
> television and bell bottoms).

Open University is one of the  UK universities which are
not that recognized by quite some employers here in Singapore.


-- Xiaofa

2010\12\01@100220 by Alexandros Nipirakis

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--If I may interject my opinion --

If you are in the United States, and you are thinking about college --
there are several ways of getting through college.  Some are better
than others, and I am going to comment only on my personal experience
with the education system here.  I AM NOT TRYING TO START A DISCUSSION
ON POLITICS.

With that said, I went to ITT Technical Institute for an associates
degree.  Yup, I spent the time and money to go to that wonderful
example of private education, and it was horrible.  I am still paying
back the money for ITT tech, and probably will be for many years (it
is at least 33k to go there, or was when I attended in 2003).

Having spent that kind of money, I was obviously interested in
transferring a few of the credits towards my BS degree.  Asked UCF
(University of Central Florida, a public university) what I could
transfer, they said "Exactly nothing."

Given this, and knowing how these stupid colleges work, I assumed that
DeVry would transfer at least some of my ITT credits.  They would (not
many, only a few) but it was going to be another 40k to get my
undergrad.

I have a small bit of experience with DeVry, it is (IMHO) not too far
from ITT tech in quality of education.  Some people get a lot out of
it, others not so much.

My current plan (which is basically on hold because I have other
things going on) is to complete another Associates Degree with a
community college, and then transfer to FSU (Florida State University)
for a BS in Computer Science.  The whole idea of the degree is of
dubious usability to me at this point since I am coming up on 10 years
of professional experience in Computer Programming.

Obviously I am a CS major, so perhaps for other programs something
like ITT would be good (they did seem to have some decent electronics
instructors - at Troy,MI Campus, but I never took any electronics
courses, and wouldn't know bad from good anyways).

With all that said --

*  Online is OK if it's offered through a public university (many are
beginning to offer this because the demographic of the college going
public seems to be shifting to working adults)

*  If you go private, expect to pay much more for your degree

*  Many private schools are just degree mills (note, there are plenty
of good private universities out there, I am talking about the ones
that advertise on TV primarily).  In other words, you are buying a
degree.  Don't expect to learn a thing about what you are going to
school for.  Don't expect to earn a good wage with this "degree."
(there are exceptions, particularly if you are good at what you are
going to school for, but the degree is nearly useless).

*  Public universities and colleges will almost always transfer
credits amongst themselves.  Private colleges and universities may or
may not (expect that if you got your degree at a degree mill, you will
not be able to transfer your credits to a reputable public university)

*  There is no easy way to a degree.  Expect easy degrees to come from
degree mills and be of near zero usefulness in a professional
environment.

*  Going to a public university means a whole bunch of extra courses
(here in Florida, you need at least one year of foreign language to
even touch the junior level courses for example).  There is no way out
of them.

*  Going private doesn't mean you will be absolved of these courses.

*  If a private college doesn't make you take liberal arts courses
(English, Public Speaking, etc.) then I would run.  Generally, in my
experience, this means they are either a degree mill or a tech school
(career training).

I said that all to say - in the US (IMHO) there is basically one big
distinguishing factor.  Either you are going to a degree mill, or a
good school.  The former is almost always going to be a private
school.  There are some public universities that are not as good as
others, but in my experience, if they are public you will proabably
get a cheaper education, and one that is more useful to you
professionally.

Another note, if money is a factor, always go in state.  In state
tuition is almost always cheaper than out of state.  I know that is a
no-brainier to most people, but when I started researching it, I was
completely floored by how much of a difference there was.

Finally, be careful about Universities that tout their accreditation
too much.  In my experience, this means that the accreditation is
useless (ALWAYS research their claims), and that they are pushing it
because they have little else to bring to the table.

Aleksei

On 1 December 2010 09:12, Xiaofan Chen <xiaofancspamspam_OUTgmail.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>

2010\12\01@105158 by Philip Pemberton

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On 01/12/10 11:03, CDB wrote:
>
>
> :: "Don't even think of putting that university on your UCAS form.
> :: Apply
> :: to Leeds and York instead."
>
> What's wrong with the Open University, or has that gone downhill as well?

Nothing AIUI.

I should probably append a disclaimer: "my experiences may not mirror your own, this is what happened to me, and by the time you sign up it'll probably have changed again". Huddersfield is fine as a university, the lecturers are (for the most part) great. But they do enjoy repetition. Get rid of all the repeated modules and you could shave a year off the course...


"The demo never matches the final product"... which brings me onto this little gem :)


Bill Gates dies and is at the pearly gates talking with Saint Peter. Saint Peter says, "Bill, you've done some wonderful things in your life and have earned the right to choose where you'll spend the rest of eternity. You can choose between Heaven or Hell, but choose wisely."

Bill looks over Saint Peter's shoulder between the pearly gates and sees nothing but a lush green meadow. Deciding to heed Saint Peter's words, Bill asks if he could take a look at Hell. Saint Peter agrees and sends Bill to Hell.

The Devil greets Bill at the gates of Hell and he is immediately taken aback. Much to his surprise, there's one heck of a party going on. People are dancing, the alcohol is flowing, music is non-stop and everyone is having a blast.

Bill returns to Heaven to again discuss his decision with Saint Peter. He again looks over Saint Peter's shoulder and sees only a lush green meadow. Bill says to Saint Peter, "I've put a lot of thought into this decision and it may sound foolish, but I'd like to spend the rest of eternity in Hell." Saint Peter fulfills Bill's request and returns him to Hell.

When Bill gets back to Hell there's been a big change. People are writhing in agony, flames are burning, moans of pain and despair are everywhere. Bill, being quite shocked at the sight asks the Devil, "What happened?? I was just down here a little while ago and everyone was having a great time!"

The Devil says, "Oh that... That was just the demo!"


> (Memories of Dr Allan Solomon with the widest kipper tie to grace
> television and bell bottoms).

I remember reading his column in PC Plus way-back-when. The days of Huw Collingbourne, "Paul's PC Pages", "Programmer's World", and an editor who actually gave a hoot.

Can't remember ever seeing any photos of He Who Gave His Name To An Antivirus Package though. Been ages since I've heard the name, even...


-- Phil.
KILLspampiclistKILLspamspamphilpem.me.uk
http://www.philpem.me.uk

2010\12\01@105316 by Mark E. Skeels

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Of course that is the dilemma......I've got around 30 yrs experience in EE, from machine tool controls to vision systems integration to restaurant gear (think McDonald's) to custom job shop industrial work and most recently power electronics, and a stint in contract Delphi database applications, so in some areas I know quite a lot.

I can appreciate what Vitaliy said about a degree. But as you can imagine, there are frustrating "holes" in my education and they creep up from time to time and cause problems.

And, I would think it would be nice for a change to actually not have to learn everything on the job.

But mainly, in this changing economy, I see the possibility of having to look for a job at some point in the future.

Up to now I have had no problems getting one, but of course, a large part of these opportunities are unavailable to me since I lack the degree.

If I do suffer loss of employment (not likely, but more so as of late) I would then consider full time school, as I cannot really see any better way to get it finished up.

There is a very local state university (Northern Illinois University) with an EE program and I think all things considered, I would get what I could that transfers at the local community college and then go there to finish up.

But at 53 yrs old it may be a moot point, and considering the number of engineers in my town (we have aerospace firms) if I were to become unemployed I might just consider something entirely different.

The things I enjoy about engineering have less to do with salary and more to do with working conditions and job satisfaction; I bet I am not alone in this.

I love to make stuff work, don't you?

Just thinking out loud here.

Mark Skeels
Engineer
Competition Electronics, Inc.
TEL: 815-874-8001
FAX: 815-874-8181
http://www.competitionelectronics.com

2010\12\01@105512 by jim

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All,

I can speak of ITT with some authotiry sine I too attended ITT
Technical Institute in Ft. Wayne, Indiana
for two years during 1981-1983.   I attended mostly because I needed
official documentation that I knew
what I said I knew about electronics.  My dad was a radio-TV repairman
since he left the U.S. Army in 1945.
So I was born into an electronics environment.  And I never wanted to
do anything else.  I took electronics
in High school.  I was a Missle Fire Control Technician in the U.S.
Navy.  And when I left the Navy, I got
a job in a factory that makes radios for the U.S Air Force.

But that isn't what I wanted to do all my life, so I went looking for
other opportunities with a better
future.  However, those people I met with said they could tell I was
very knowledgable.  But I didn't have
any official documentation of education.  And that was a stumbling
block. (BTW, I'm talking mid 70's here).

So, I heard about ITT from a friend, and went to check it out.  It was
expensive. About 10K per year at the
time.  I got some grants and other funding, but it still cost me about
12K or so when I was done.  As far as
I'm concerned, it was the best money I have spent in a lng time.  

Just before my class graduated, there were several companies that sent
recruiters to interview and
designate potential hirees.  My brother-in-law and I both attended at
the same time.  And we were both
hired at the same time.  By Texas Instruments in Houston, Texas USA.
So, we moved to Texas (from Indiana).
T.I paid for our move, and they put us up in a hotel until we found a
house.  I worked for T.I for 15 years,
and was laid off.  I went across the street to anotheer company,
Input-Output, an Oil Field Services
Company.  Here I worked on designing the next generation Marine Oil
Survey Equipment.  After a few years,
I transferred to a different department, and have basically been here
since.

The jist of all of this is that I had substantial electronics knowledge
and skills before going to
ITT Tech.  But I needed official proof that I had post secondary
education at an accredited learning
institution before I could advance to the type of work I wanted to do.
Since I graduated from ITT Tech,
I have done exactly that.  

My official title for the last 12 years or so is Senior Electronics R&D
Technician.  However, my job is
basically that of an Engineer.  I get paid well for what I do.  And I
like what I do.  I'm still working
on next generation seismic equipment, except that now I'm working on
ground based equipment versus Marine
based of a few years ago.

The bottom line for me is that the money and time I spent at ITT was
well worth it.  And T.I. paid me to
go to college and get an undergrad degree.  Many other companies offer
this incentive too, so you should
check potential employers to see if they make this offer.  If they do,
ou can work and earn your degree
at the same time, and have it paid for by your employer.

I do not regret going to ITT.  It was the best thing for me at the
time, and it has served me well through
the years.   I would urge anyone wanting to get into electronics or
computers to consider ITT Tech.
I know it is a good school.  And as an FYI, ITT has changed their
format from when I attended.  It is now
run more like a college than a trade school.  And I believe most of the
courses are now transferrable to
other colleges and universities.  My sone attended ITT a couple of
years ago.  He is now living in Ft.
Wayne. He too was in the Navy as a Nuclear Tech aboard submarines.

Regards,

Jim








Regards,

Jim

> ---{Original Message removed}

2010\12\01@111944 by Alexandros Nipirakis

picon face
Jim,

I have talked to people who went to ITT before the 90's and they all
had similar experiences to yours.  In fact, one of the big reasons I
did decide to go to ITT was that my father knew people who's kids went
there and they all ended up with great jobs.

I have a pretty good job, but I did have experience before I went to
ITT (I started working in IT when I was still in High School, actually
working for the School District -- meaning by the time I was going to
ITT technical institute, I already had four years experience in IT).
Most people I went to school with had no experience, were generally
from the worst parts of Detroit, and had little if any chance of
getting a real job (even help desk would have been a struggle for
some).  Their way of getting people to go to their school these days
seems to be to push the whole "YOU WILL MAKE TONS OF MONEY" in front
of disadvantaged people who don't know a computer from a toaster oven.

I think ITT went downhill from the time you went there - quick.  Troy
campus was a joke.  I cannot speak as to other campuses, but I cannot
imagine they were much better.

Case in point -- when I was going there, one of my requirements was to
take a Cisco class (basic routing and configuration of switches, etc
-- not even enough to get your CCNA).  The instructor wasn't half bad
(he knew what he was doing, basically, and I think he had practical
experience with routers, though he wasn't -- as far as I could tell --
actually certified in any of it).  I will give you one anecdote about
that class:

Our final assignment (think final exam) was to configure a couple of
Cisco routers to talk to each other, building a virtual WAN between
the routers.  Thats it, get them talking and you win!

Router a was supposed to be Detroie, b was supposed to be Chicago, c
was supposed to be New York, and d California.  We had to get the
parameters he gave us (for the first serial interface, which was
supposed to be connected into a T1 line -- if I am getting termanology
wrong, please excuse me, I haven't touched a router since I left
there).  So, basically the only "challenge" was to set the IPs
correct, configure the serial interfaces, and make them talk properly
(using CLI).

In other words, it was a simple assignment.

To make it even more simple, the instructor told us exactly what was
going to be on the exam (the exact problem with the exact parameters)
and then went so far as to tell us the exact commands we would need to
execute to get the exam right.  We were allowed to have our notes.
EVEN WITH THAT -- we had a guy who couldn't do it, with us (you know,
the other students) actually hand feeding him our notes telling him
what to do.  At last, the instructor helped him, and the exam
concluded WITH THIS GUY PASSING!

I think that ITT may have been good a long time ago, but its a joke
now.  All it is now is a degree mill.  The ITT degree is an industry
joke for IT people and programmers.

What you experienced in the early 1980s is not what is going on now.
Not only has the cost trebled -- but the big problem is that their
career placement sucks.  When I graduated, the only "placement" I was
given was an option to man a help desk for 10 dollars an hour (which -
I might add - was less than the money I was making basically interning
(I will give credit where it is due, an instructor happened to know a
guy working at a local software company who needed a cheap code monkey
and I was able to get in the door) and writing software).  When I
moved to Florida (after graduation) I contacted the ITT here and the
same was true here as it was in Michigan.  If you want to get a job,
you work help desk.

I still think it was a waste of money, and I tell anyone thinking of
going there not to believe the BS they hand you in the commercials,
that it was an absolute joke.  If anyone wants, I can share more of
the stories -- the one I shared here was the tip of the iceberg, and
by no means the full enchalada.

Aleksei
On 1 December 2010 10:55,  <RemoveMEjimTakeThisOuTspamjpes.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>> ---{Original Message removed}

2010\12\01@121257 by alan.b.pearce

face picon face
> To make it even more simple, the instructor told us exactly what was
> going to be on the exam (the exact problem with the exact parameters)
> and then went so far as to tell us the exact commands we would need to
> execute to get the exam right.  We were allowed to have our notes.
> EVEN WITH THAT -- we had a guy who couldn't do it, with us (you know,
> the other students) actually hand feeding him our notes telling him
> what to do.  At last, the instructor helped him, and the exam
> concluded WITH THIS GUY PASSING!

Hmm ...

www.nzherald.co.nz/education/news/article.cfm?c_id=35&objectid=10
690308

Sounds rather similar ...
-- Scanned by iCritical.

2010\12\01@143313 by cdb

flavicon
face


:: At last, the instructor helped him, and the exam
:: concluded WITH THIS GUY PASSING!

Many TAFE courses here (Ozland), especially those that are supposedly part of vocational training are exactly like that, open book and if you can write your name you exceed the pass mark.

Though, I don't necessarily decry open book, I don't think it should be allowed for the basic tenets of whatever course is being taken.

Colin
--
cdb, spamBeGonecolinspamBeGonespambtech-online.co.uk on 2/12/2010
Web presence: http://www.btech-online.co.uk   Hosted by:  http://www.justhost.com.au
 

2010\12\01@145108 by Alexandros Nipirakis

picon face
The truth is that in the real world, chances are whatever it is you
are doing is going to be done open book.  I get that.  But I agree
completely, when we are talking about a degree course, in the upper
part of the program, which is essentially testing only the basic
foundations of what you should be able to do, it should be closed
book.

Afterall, you may be able to use a calculator pretty much everywhere,
but most schools still force kids to do basic arithmetic by hand in
the beginning.

Aleksei

On 1 December 2010 14:33, cdb <TakeThisOuTcolinEraseMEspamspam_OUTbtech-online.co.uk> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>

2010\12\01@153648 by Kevin

picon face


My $0.02 in the USA if you apply at a company with more than 50 people these days you will NOT get through HR without a degree.

Second it makes a world of diffence who "Accredidates" the school. Just because you can get a loan for tuition doesn't mean it's a good school.  Most colleges and Uninversities are accredited by the same regional bodies, which I guarantee you are not the same ones that ITT and Devry got accredidation from, that's why the credits won't transfer.

As for online programs I would only take one from a real brick and mortor school. Devry has some good online programs as well as Temple. I live by Philly can you tell ?  The degree you get from them will say the schools name just like you attended in person. It does not have "online" on the diploma.

The reason you don't see Engineering and Science degrees online is because of the lab work associated with those classes. The labs have to be completed in the lab !


-- Kevi

2010\12\01@155518 by Alexandros Nipirakis

picon face
FSU allows you to do pretty much all of your upper level (BS) CS work
online.  I suspect this is because most of your CS work is generally
done on your own hardware anyways.

For testing, you MUST go to a community college and have the test proctored..

My suspicion is that a full online EE course would be suspect since EE
courses are generally more lab oriented than a CS degree would be.
Online would be a good option for math and generic science (as well as
your Liberal Arts) courses since they would not require lab work.

A trend I have started to see is that even when you are talking about
Comunity College for something, many of your course options will be
"Hibred."  I have found these to be a good option for liberal arts
courses, and have not tried for a math or science course.

Kevin, you are right, ITT says they are accredited, but that could
mean anyone.  My wife attended career training and was able to get
funding through student loans (its big business).  In my view,
accredidation is still a fairly precarious thing since there is no
single entity that does the accrediting -- that is why I generally
suggest (to those who would listen -- I also mentor a FIRST team where
the kids generally listen) state schools since they are accountable to
the government, which in my mind adds some credibility to them.

For those who are interested, there was an interesting movie (PBS) on
Netflix -- I think it was called Education Inc. or something like
that.  When I get home I will post the actual name.  The documentary
went into the insane ways that schools can get started here -- and the
main subject point was online courses.

Aleksei

On 1 December 2010 15:36, Kevin <kbenEraseMEspam.....dca.net> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>

2010\12\01@163307 by Carey Fisher

face picon face
This is the best and most to-the-point analysis I've seen regarding higher
education!!!


On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 10:02 AM, Alexandros Nipirakis
<EraseMEanipirakisspamgmail.com>wrote:

{Quote hidden}

> > --

2010\12\01@170503 by Paul Hutchinson

picon face
> -----Original Message-----
> From: RemoveMEpiclist-bouncesTakeThisOuTspamspammit.edu On Behalf Of Alexandros Nipirakis
> Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 3:55 PM
>
>
<snip>
>
> For those who are interested, there was an interesting movie (PBS) on
> Netflix -- I think it was called Education Inc. or something like
> that.  When I get home I will post the actual name.  The documentary
> went into the insane ways that schools can get started here -- and the
> main subject point was online courses.
>
> Aleksei

Maybe you're thinking of Frontlines episode from May 4th of this year
"College Inc." It can be viewed online for free @
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/collegeinc/

Paul Hutch

2010\12\01@171141 by Alexandros Nipirakis

picon face
Yup, thats the one -- I guess I never knew the PBS shows are available
for free online.  In my laziness, I am apt to search the netflix
catalog :)

Aleksei

On 1 December 2010 17:05, Paul Hutchinson <EraseMEpaullhutchinsonspamspamspamBeGoneyahoo.com> wrote:
>> {Original Message removed}

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