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'[EE] Technology Adoption Lag'
2005\09\02@135121 by digitaladdictions

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    Is it just me or does it seem the electronics/hardware community
really is behind the times when it comes to modern computer
technology.  Perhaps I am a bit biased as I have always been more a
computer hacker than hardware hacker and probably more on the bleeding
edge than normal but it seems that hardware people are behind the norm
from even a non technical person standpoint.

    A couple recent observations have resulted in this opinion. First
it seems that a vast majority of the hobbyist resources and projects
online still are written for windows 9x. Admittedly I am a BSD/Linux
whore in many ways and would never use 9x even if it were new but I
have no problem with win2k or XP or win2k3 server, while a bit
bloated, they are for the most part powerful stable operating systems.
I would never want to discourage someone from learning because they
don't have the money to buy modern equipment but it just seems like it
is the overall trend still, and Linux is always free and can run on
some of the oldest legacy equipment there is.

    When I was at Barnes and Nobel yesterday I was looking at the
magazine rack and found an article in an electronics magazine (either
Servo or Nuts & Volts, for the life of me I cant remember) where the
gist of it was that the Internet is not worth while for electronic
suppliers. They said users find it much easier to just call them up
for inventory and price quotes.  Now I understand some older engineers
who never used computers in the first place and are stuck in there
ways would agree and that there are parts of the world were Internet
access can be problematic. I am not suggesting they refuse phone
orders BUT I cant imagine 90% of people would agree its easier to call
than to do a quick search on the distributors web page.  I place most
of my electronic orders through digikey and find there site very easy
to navigate and find what I want.  I guarantee you that says call for
a price quote I wont.  I view it as inefficient and also don't want to
be tried to be sold anything.  This article did keep me alert to this
attitude when I was browsing the web and I have noticed quite a few
electronic supplier sites just being a front to give an address and
phone number to call them often without even listing products.

    I really hope the attitude isn't that "I'm just a hobbyist and
cant do anything more complicated." As stated earlier my background is
more in the computer hacking/programming side of things were for the
most part the community is more bleeding edge than there corporate
counterpart and the attitude is that anything can be done with open
source projects rivaling million dollar company products every day.
 
    I don't mean to insult anyone here or tell anyone they shouldn't
continue doing what they enjoy doing or to stop learning. I am just
stating an observation and wondering if anyone else has noticed this
or agrees with me. Perhaps I am just looking in the wrong places and
there are great bleeding edge things going on else where.

Justin

2005\09\02@145639 by John Ferrell

face picon face
I believe the problem is with the magazine industry. They are having a tough
time adapting to the competition from the internet. It is not surprising to
find them clinging to the past.

There is no shortage of us old guys embracing new technology as fast as we
can. There are a lot of young technicians that have not learned that today's
GeeWhiz technology is tomorrows recycles.

I still dutifully replace the old Jameco & Digikey catalogs with the new
ones they mail me but I cannot remember the last time I ordered anything
except online.

I look at Linux from time to time and even give it a try. I always back away
because I really don't want to get in bed with the operating system, I just
want to use it. So far, I have not encountered anything that does not
require a great deal of effort to get "almost" running!

Actually, I am almost afraid of making a phone call order for anything any
more because I may not be able to talk to someone who can communicate with
me in my native language (the American dialect of English spoken in the
South East USA).

There are people who try to shun technology but I don't think they are
limited to any particular demographic group.

There are times when it don't pay to be the first with things, just ask
anyone who tried Window ME...

John Ferrell
http://DixieNC.US

{Original Message removed}

2005\09\02@152158 by Randy Glenn

picon face
On 9/2/05, John Ferrell <spam_OUTjohnferrellTakeThisOuTspamearthlink.net> wrote:
> I believe the problem is with the magazine industry. They are having a tough
> time adapting to the competition from the internet. It is not surprising to
> find them clinging to the past.

There is also a problem in that many distributors have a near-useless
Internet presence. Digikey and Mouser and the others do a good job of
online ordering, but many distributors for more esoteric / interesting
parts have a list of companies they sell for, and an email link "for
more information". It's kind of intimidating when you only want 10 or
so.

> There is no shortage of us old guys embracing new technology as fast as we
> can. There are a lot of young technicians that have not learned that today's
> GeeWhiz technology is tomorrows recycles.

Don't forget that GeeWhiz(tm) technology is often a long time coming -
CDs are, what, 30 years old now, and MP3 was developed in the late 80s
/ early 90s IIRC.

> I still dutifully replace the old Jameco & Digikey catalogs with the new
> ones they mail me but I cannot remember the last time I ordered anything
> except online.

It's definitely worthwhile having the Digikey catalog around - unless
you know *exactly* what you're looking for, the website is nowhere
near as useful as the catalog.

> I look at Linux from time to time and even give it a try. I always back away
> because I really don't want to get in bed with the operating system, I just
> want to use it. So far, I have not encountered anything that does not
> require a great deal of effort to get "almost" running!

As I've told friends, Linux is the reason I got a Mac :) I've got a
Linux machine at home doing Web server and email / RSS reader duty -
it's set up as an IMAP server to fetch and sort my mail, all on the
server. I connect to it from any IMAP client (encrypted outside the
home network) or via a Webmail interface. I have all of my email,
sorted and filtered, from anywhere in the world - very convenient, and
only took 2 days to set it up (I could do it in a couple hours at this
point, I'd bet).

That said, I've never used Linux on a desktop or notebook for more
than a couple of months before I gave up. Don't even get me started on
MythTV... I bought a TiVo instead.

{Quote hidden}

--
-Randy Glenn
Computer Eng. and Mgt. Year IV, McMaster University
Industry Liason, McMaster IEEE Student Branch

randy.glenn-at-gmail.com - glennrb-at-mcmaster.ca
randy.glenn-at-computer.org - randy_glenn-at-ieee.org
http://www.randyglenn.ca

2005\09\02@154702 by Howard Winter

face
flavicon
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John,

On Fri, 2 Sep 2005 14:56:50 -0400, John Ferrell wrote:

> There are times when it don't pay to be the first with things, just ask
> anyone who tried Window ME...

"Never use anything from Microsoft before Version 3!"  :-)

If you want to *use* computers rather then explore/experiment/tinker/play with them, it's always been a Bad
Thing to use anything new.

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2005\09\02@170038 by Mario Mendes Jr.

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You've got many valid points.  But here are some of my own.

Here's one example of when Windows 95/98 comes in handy.  You build
parallel port PIC programmer, and you know how to program C, well, then
it is easy for you to write a program to use the parallel port to
interface your programmer whith some simple functions.  You can't do
that in Windows NT/2000/XP/2003 unless you have device driver for it,
most of which either needs to be purchased or you need to code it
yourself.  Have you tried to code ANY device drivers for Windows
lately?!!!  I even bought a book on it and then decided I was better off
just purchasing an ICD2 from Microchip.  Sure you can do it in linux
too, but, now speaking about me, I don't want to have to spend a few
days installing it and maybe even having to compile the kernel to get it
working my way.  I just want to pop a CD in the drive and by the time
I'm done installing it, it better work right off the bet. While I am a
big "do-it-yourself" guy and enjoy building small PIC projects (mostly
for learning) and write my own programs, I would rather not have to
tinker with the OS, much the say way I would rather not have to build my
own pc and prefer to buy it.  On the other hand, I make my own wine,
cheese, bread and liquor filled chocolate goodies, call me crazy but to
each its own, therefore there will be things you'll be thrilled to make
from scrach and others you won't.

Digikey and Mouser do a good job with their websites, but sometimes I
come across some parts I'd like to use and you can't get them from those
2 sources.  I enjoy backyard astronomy and a while back I was playing
around with the idea of building my own astronomy liquid cooled ccd
digital camera, which requires long exposures and therefore your regular
canon/nokia cmos sensor digital cameras do not provide the same level
low noise response and time exposure.  However, neither digikey nor
mouser had any ccd sensors with the specs I had picked and a search on
the web turned out vendors like Avnet and Newark.  For my specs, the
sensors in their site listed "call" for prices.  Needless to say, not
only is that annoying because all I wanted to know was the price for a
couple sensor, but also meant I had to deal with some idiot on the phone
talking to me like I was crazy trying to order 2 sensors while their
goal is to have you open an account and sell you in large quantities.
End result, I put up $700 bucks for a ready made model, of an inferior
design than the one I wished I could build for the same price while
learning something along the way.

So while the magazines and other publications may seem to be lagging
behind, maybe, just maybe, it may be for some of the same reasons, and
others, mentioned above.  If Nuts and Volts published articles where you
needed megamoney and specialized equipment to build then it would become
a niche publication and their audience would be limited to a certain
demographic, other then the one they're trying to reach out to, the poor
guy with the 8 yearl old desktop that will not run Windows XP and quite
frankly may be scared away from installing linux (for the wrong
reasons).

And by the way, you'll never eat cognac raspberry filled dark chocolate
bonbons like the ones I make ;)


-Mario


{Original Message removed}

2005\09\02@233414 by Ling SM

picon face
digital addictions wrote:
>      Is it just me or does it seem the electronics/hardware community
> really is behind the times when it comes to modern computer
> technology.  Perhaps I am a bit biased as I have always been more a
> computer hacker than hardware hacker and probably more on the bleeding
> edge than normal but it seems that hardware people are behind the norm
> from even a non technical person standpoint.

Except that keeping up with the latest on the computer arena is a full
time hobby even a profession.  So most can only choose one, unless the
old platform are being "suffocated".  And in addition, these people are
the computer administrator/consultant/technicians/fix-all-man for his
neighborhood, family, extended families, and close friends.

Yeah, shop wanting to do business only over phone is a pain, especially
so for people who needed the parts and not in the same time zone.  I am
in the midst of it now, few emails and still no answer.  But one valid
reason I think of is to minimize fraud.

Ling SM

2005\09\04@001126 by Herbert Graf

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On Fri, 2005-09-02 at 17:00 -0400, Mario Mendes Jr. wrote:
> You've got many valid points.  But here are some of my own.
>
> Here's one example of when Windows 95/98 comes in handy.  You build
> parallel port PIC programmer, and you know how to program C, well, then
> it is easy for you to write a program to use the parallel port to
> interface your programmer whith some simple functions.  You can't do
> that in Windows NT/2000/XP/2003 unless you have device driver for it,
> most of which either needs to be purchased or you need to code it
> yourself.  

Absolutely false. There are MANY free ones out there, available for
pretty much any program development tool you use. Most are just plug and
play, you add then to your project and then you call their "inp" and
"outp" functions. I'd say it's sometimes EASIER then win95/98 since you
don't need to figure out the inline assembler tricks that some languages
need.

> Have you tried to code ANY device drivers for Windows
> lately?!!!  I even bought a book on it and then decided I was better off
> just purchasing an ICD2 from Microchip.  Sure you can do it in linux
> too, but, now speaking about me, I don't want to have to spend a few
> days installing it and maybe even having to compile the kernel to get it
> working my way.  

Few people compile kernels anymore, that's something that needed to be
done 10 years ago. These days kernel mode driver modules replace the
need to recompile kernels. I've been using Linux for many years, and
it's been many years since I last compiled a kernel. Some still do it,
especially when trying to optimize an install for a very specific piece
of resource limited hardware, but mainstream doesn't do it.

> I just want to pop a CD in the drive and by the time
> I'm done installing it, it better work right off the bet.

The latest distros need less user interaction to do a fresh install then
windows.

> While I am a
> big "do-it-yourself" guy and enjoy building small PIC projects (mostly
> for learning) and write my own programs, I would rather not have to
> tinker with the OS, much the say way I would rather not have to build my
> own pc and prefer to buy it.  

Well, on that Linux does have a ways to go. Tinkering, while much less
common, is still necessary if you're doing something out of the
mainstream. Some think that's a bad thing, me, I think it's a good
thing, keeps me on my toes and I've learned a hell of a lot because of
it.

TTYL


-----------------------------
Herbert's PIC Stuff:
http://repatch.dyndns.org:8383/pic_stuff/

2005\09\04@020856 by digitaladdictions

picon face
Well my point wasn't to argue the merits or demerits of Linux but the
flood gates are open (probably my fault) and I cant help but to make
at least a brief comment.

I really do think modern Linux distro's are easier to use than windows
and involve less tinkering. I realize people are scared to type but
with a single command you can download and install a program, without
worrying about finding it or any of its dependencies on the web the
package manager takes care of all of it for you. On the same note you
can update your system with a single command; not just the OS
components but the whole system; including the kernel.  Debian and
FreeBSD have done this for a long time with apt-get and the ports
collection but more recently Fedora Core has perfected it imo.  The
installers require no more interaction or knowledge than the Windows
installer and you also get a good number of your base programs and
tools installed with the OS. I really don't hate windows, I am typing
this from XP 64bit right now but I do find my self spending
substantially more time post install in windows going to individual
websites and downloading and installing all the programs I use than I
do on Linux witch 90% of my stuff is already there.  This is not to
say I have never had problems with Linux, lord knows I have had my
fair share but I find that in solving my Linux problems I am learning
alot more than in solving my windows problems.  Linux still has some
way to go in standardizing its GUI and working out some stability
problems with its windowing system witch hopefully xorg will do;
although they have alot of baggage to work with, I think the best
solution would be to start from scratch in that aspect.

I really don't think keeping up with technology is a problem once you
are caught up with it. I think the biggest problem is learning it in
the first place. When you finally have a good overall feel for it
(witch takes a long time as you need to learn so much in parallel) its
just a mater of reading the trade journals to see whats new and whats
going away.  Maybe its just me but I really don't separate the two
fields that much if your into electronics money bets at some point you
will want to interface them to a PC at some level.

As far as the programmer example I would say the problem is using
serial or parallel ports in the first place. I would really like to
see more USB (yes I know there is the issue of obtaining a Vendor ID
witch really sucks) or firewire projects.  Like it or not both techs
are on there way out with Macs abandoning them awhile ago and fewer
and fewer on PC mother boards.  I can feel some sympathy in the
hobbyist area, especially for cost issues, but it really annoys me
that my new PICStart Plus programmer that I just paid $200 for still
uses a serial interface.  Complexity is a whole other issue I really
don't see the point in using old technologies because they are simpler
and you can easily learn them.  What is the point of learning and
obsolete technology be it hardware or software. You may score some
geek point (witch I have nothing against) and it may be interesting to
see where the current tech came from and how it has changed but if you
are developing in such an environment you will be isolating your self
and your project from the rest of the world. Perhaps it is just for
your personal enjoyment and you never intend on having anyone else
ever use your project. Then for the sake of simplicity you are still
preventing yourself from progressing in your field of study be it
electronics, programming, astronomy  or anything else you will never
get any better.

I guess its just my personality though and I cant expect everyone to
be like me.  The harder a task the more I want to do it. Seeing that
"Technical Calculus 4" or "Advanced Theoretical Astrophysics" on a
syllabus gets me excited.  I really think its just a mater of a can do
attitude if you go into it thinking it will be easy it probably will
be if you go into it thinking you cant do it you probably will fail
regardless of your intelligence or experience.

Justin

This turned out to be a longer rant than anticipated and heavily
opinionated sorry if I offended anyone ;)

2005\09\04@024426 by digitaladdictions

picon face
 This isn't to say you cant MacGyver some cool innovative stuff using
old technology but I don't feel most people do. Looking around the web
at electronics projects its just a whole bunch of the same stuff over
and over again. There are exceptions of course.

Adopting new technologies allows to some extent the ability to
produce new interesting things with only a moderate amount of
innovation. You may just end up with a new set of projects that become
the same ole stuff but I think perhaps it is time for a new set.

Justin

2005\09\04@042042 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face
On Sep 3, 2005, at 11:44 PM, digitaladdictions wrote:

> This isn't to say you cant MacGyver some cool innovative stuff
> using old technology but I don't feel most people do.

This is something of a catch-22.  There are lots of useful things
one can do with a 2-generations old used PC (nearly free.)  But in order
to do that, you have to understand a lot more than the average person
who can't afford a new computer.  You're no longer "mainstream", you're
no longer "supported."  To a large extent, you're no longer
"supportable",
except by the rare (relatively speaking) geek.

So if you want to install computers at the local elementary school, it's
not just a matter of coming up with $600 per seat for a low-end
computer,
it's creating a long term budget and process to spend another $600 per
seat in two years, and every two years after that.  The alternative is
to hire a full-time expert and send out students with "obsolete"
knowledge.
Not even geography textbooks go out of date so fast :-(

Grr.

BillW

2005\09\04@115202 by Mario Mendes Jr.

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face
I do have to admit that I have tried to play with linux only 3 times in
my life and the last one of those over 3 years ago, so I'll take your
word for it when you say it is not like that anymore.

The last time I tried to get a free parallel port driver working on my
PC, it wreaked havoc on the system.  It replaced a bunch of dlls and god
knows whatever else.  And since the crashes only started happening after
the installation of the driver, I'm 99% sure that was it.

-Mario

{Original Message removed}

2005\09\04@132444 by Peter

picon face

On Sun, 4 Sep 2005, Mario Mendes Jr. wrote:

> I do have to admit that I have tried to play with linux only 3 times in
> my life and the last one of those over 3 years ago, so I'll take your
> word for it when you say it is not like that anymore.
>
> The last time I tried to get a free parallel port driver working on my
> PC, it wreaked havoc on the system.  It replaced a bunch of dlls and god
> knows whatever else.  And since the crashes only started happening after
> the installation of the driver, I'm 99% sure that was it.

Linux is complex enough to supply all the rope needed to do the system
in. On the other hand, if you follow the crowd (and do not do things
outside the box, like attempting to update the system in bulk using
packages from another system, based on the *wrong* assumption that any
rpm package is a rpm package), you will have a smooth ride.

The smoothest ride is currently given by the live boot type cds, like
Knoppix (which is Debian based). There is *nothing* to configure if you
have normal hardware (most any pc made between 1998 and say three months
ago). It does not even install on the hard disk. You put the cd in, boot
from it, and sip coffee for ca. 3 to 5 minutes until it boots directly
into gui (x11), with internet connection up (if you have a router you
are already connected by the time the system is up), Open Office
installed, access to your hard drive, sound, usb, cd (and dvd) writer
and about 2000 other applications (including wine, a windows emulator
that allows many windows-only programs to run under linux). If you like
it, you can even install it on a partition. It is hard to resist the
temptation. See http://www.knopper.net -> knoppix . New versions are out
all the time.

Peter

2005\09\04@140829 by John Nall

picon face
Peter wrote:

> > Linux is complex enough to supply all the rope needed to do the
> system in. On the other hand, if you follow the crowd (and do not do
> things outside the box, like attempting to update the system in bulk
> using packages from another system, based on the *wrong* assumption
> that any rpm package is a rpm package), you will have a smooth ride.

Actually, I think that for a lot of people it is not an "either-or"
situation.  Both Windows and Linux have their strong points and their
weak points, and I suspect that a lot of people do the same as I do --
run a dual-boot system.  If I want to do non-pic software stuff, I'll
use Linux, because it is easier (and I'd do pic stuff on Linux if I
could).  But if I want to just get on the Internet and do stuff, I'll
usually boot up XP.    Not always, on either point, but generally
speaking that is the divide.  I also suspect (again, without having any
data to back it up) that a lot of hard-core Linux people mostly use the
terminal window (or multiple terminal windows), and it is easier on
Linux than on Windows.   Then, of course, there are us addicts who from
time to time just HAVE to get a fix, by doing something in Perl.  :-)

{Quote hidden}

2005\09\04@142853 by Jose Da Silva

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On September 4, 2005 01:20 am, William Chops Westfield wrote:
> On Sep 3, 2005, at 11:44 PM, digitaladdictions wrote:
> > This isn't to say you cant MacGyver some cool innovative stuff
> > using old technology but I don't feel most people do.
>
> This is something of a catch-22.  There are lots of useful things
> one can do with a 2-generations old used PC (nearly free.)  But in
> order to do that, you have to understand a lot more than the average
> person who can't afford a new computer.  You're no longer
> "mainstream", you're no longer "supported."  To a large extent,
> you're no longer
> "supportable",
> except by the rare (relatively speaking) geek.

Loaded mandrake 10.2 (loaded just fine) and turned an old 300mhz machine
into a samba server at work. The desktop runs slowwww, but it's
normally off anyways, otherwise who cares because it seems to run just
fine when viewed from the other machines.
Sort of a burr in other IT's sides when they demand fast computers,
windows server software etc... meanwhile, cost of this system was the
price of a 2nd harddrive to act as a backup to the main drive.
Total project cost still less than $100.00 hehehe.
....before people start the flame-fest, yes, you do got to know where a
slow machine will do just fine.

2005\09\04@144820 by Herbert Graf

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face
On Sun, 2005-09-04 at 14:08 -0400, John Nall wrote:
> Peter wrote:
>
> > > Linux is complex enough to supply all the rope needed to do the
> > system in. On the other hand, if you follow the crowd (and do not do
> > things outside the box, like attempting to update the system in bulk
> > using packages from another system, based on the *wrong* assumption
> > that any rpm package is a rpm package), you will have a smooth ride.
>
> Actually, I think that for a lot of people it is not an "either-or"
> situation.  Both Windows and Linux have their strong points and their
> weak points, and I suspect that a lot of people do the same as I do --
> run a dual-boot system.  

I did that for a while, and got tired of it very quickly. The reboot
time was just too painful.

Then Dell offered their $299 with free shipping PC. I bought one, and a
KVM switch, and had two systems up.

After a month or two of using both systems the annoying bits of Windows
just started bugging me more and more.

Now I use my Linux system all the time. I boot my windows system perhaps
once a month, that's about it.

Everything I did on windows I can do on Linux, with the exception of the
ICD2. Even watching windows media files works perfectly fine under Linux
(once you find the right codec package).

Now my use of Windows is restricted to my Dell laptop (simply because I
haven't had time to switch it to Linux) and my work PC. Of course,
almost all my work on that PC is xterms into Suns and Linux boxes, so
Windows is a glorified x-server to me.

Given some time I'll be asking my boss for permission to switch my work
PC to Linux, can't wait.

TTYL



-----------------------------
Herbert's PIC Stuff:
http://repatch.dyndns.org:8383/pic_stuff/

2005\09\04@144902 by digitaladdictions

picon face
> ....before people start the flame-fest, yes, you do got to know where a
> slow machine will do just fine.

I whole heartily agree point being your still using a modern OS. Given
the opportunity I would take a 300MHz machine load Linux on it and use
it for a router or firewall or IDS and it would be perfect for that.
And it would cost you almost nothing to implement. If  win9x was more
stable and secure and could be networked properly you could use it for
the same purposes. In either case It wouldn't be a main development
system or platform.

> Linux is complex enough to supply all the rope needed to do the system
> in. On the other hand, if you follow the crowd (and do not do things
> outside the box, like attempting to update the system in bulk using
> packages from another system, based on the *wrong* assumption that any
> rpm package is a rpm package), you will have a smooth ride.

That is why there are multiple repositories for all supported
architectures on each version of the distribution. If your are really
paranoid about it though you can always use Gentoo witch offers
portage a package manager that does all the above mentioned package
manager operations but compiles the code on your system to your
specific compiler flags. This sounds great at first but gets really
tiresome after awhile while waiting an hour or more when a rpm
packages could have you up and running in seconds. Ever try compiling
KDE last time I did it about a year ago it took about 7hrs on a 1.3GHz
XP; I have yet to try it on my current A64 3000+ machine but I am sure
it will still take several hours. Knoppix is great though I use
Knoppix STD (security tools distribution) all the time when i am away
from home. I rather have something a bit more standard for a permanent
install but that isn't to say you couldn't use knoppix for your main
install.

>This is something of a catch-22.  There are lots of useful things
>one can do with a 2-generations old used PC (nearly free.)  But in order
>to do that, you have to understand a lot more than the average person
>who can't afford a new computer.  You're no longer "mainstream", you're
>no longer "supported."  To a large extent, you're no longer
>"supportable",
>except by the rare (relatively speaking) geek.

I agree and I would never suggest that a person or company who needs
support would try to come up with solutions using obsolete technology.
My point simply was to backpedal a bit  and say that a properly
motivated and knowledgeable person lacking other resources besides
grey mater could still do some cool things. Its rare to see it
actually happen though. When it does happen it usually will require
someone with a higher than normal knowledge of both the current and
the target technology to draw comparisons and come up with work
arounds not someone using the old technology because they feel its
simpler. Obviously everyone cant be the century's next great engineer
or scientist otherwise we would all be arguing about our inertia
dampeners and temporal displacement experiments rather than Linux vs
windows and servo control circuits. My initial point was the
electronic hobbyist community seems to be stuck in a rut using old
obsolete technology. I still stand by that and think its time to move
on to a modern operating system and interface of your choosing but I
am just trying not to exclude those who have no other choice saying it
is possible to do new innovative stuff it just not likely and it wont
be easy.

By the way after all this Linux whoring I am doing I would just like
to say I am studying for my MCSE on Server 2003 and am not a Microsoft
hater.


Justin

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