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'[EE] Taking the fun out of computers - WindowsVist'
2007\01\25@005717 by Jake Anderson

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Vitaliy wrote:
> Herbert Graf wrote:
>  
>> a default install of windows has ZERO
>> DVD player support).
>>    
>
> What about Windows Media Player?
>
>  
by default that wont play dvd's
you need a 3rd party codec for it to descramble it.
or just use VLC (or an open source codec) ;->

I have just been giving nvidias purevideo a try but i don't know if its
really that much better than vlc's decoder.

I am running linux desktop now as I am pushing linux systems, its a case
of "eating my own dog food" thus far the only down side i have had is i
now play games on my girlfriends computer. Which at the moment is
plugged into a 1080p 37" LCD (aka the tv) with surround sound so its not
all bad ;->.

2007\01\25@053727 by Alan B. Pearce

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>Do you mean there are still some computer fairs running?  Whereabouts?
>
>Around these parts (Hertfordshire) they all disappeared about
>6 months ago.  I used to haunt them regularly, so it's been a
>dreadful wrench...
>
>I believe there is still one that happens in London, just off
>Tottenham Court Road, but I tend not to travel into London
>these days.

Me too, glad I don't work in there, judging by the continual train and
traffic delays from out this way.

This outfit used to have regular fairs on a circuit that had Birmingham,
Oxford Bristol and a number of other places. Now it looks like they only
have a couple set up for Bristol.
http://www.afm96.co.uk/calendar.htm

Wonder what has caused the demise of these ...

2007\01\25@062446 by Howard Winter

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Alan,

On Thu, 25 Jan 2007 10:37:18 -0000, Alan B. Pearce wrote:

{Quote hidden}

Well I've worked in London on and off over the years (had a lucky escape missing the King's Cross fire by very few minutes).  I loved being there,
hated getting there!  My ideas for reducing the congestion on the roads and railways include:  Banning taxis (even one person in their own car is
making a journey, taxis drivce around "empty"); Making "Flexitime" a legal requirement for all companies (the extra congestion on the Underground
between 08:30 and 09:00 is a result of most firms expecting people to be in at 09:00 - spread it out a bit!).

> This outfit used to have regular fairs on a circuit that had Birmingham,
> Oxford Bristol and a number of other places. Now it looks like they only
> have a couple set up for Bristol.
> http://www.afm96.co.uk/calendar.htm

I see what you mean - once a month in Bristol isn't exactly a healthy business...

> Wonder what has caused the demise of these ...

Two things in my opinion:  the decline of computers as a hobby (same thing happened to Amateur Radio, and Electronics) and eBay!  Why wait for a
couple of weeks to go to a fair that may or may not have what you want when you can sit in the comfort of your own home and find what you want
online?

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2007\01\25@082937 by Carl Denk

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For those in the North Central USA check this out in Dayton, Ohio
http://www.hamvention.org/

Had to been around 25 years ago, went down there with $4000 cash and
came home with an early "AT" compatable in pieces and boxes including a
Mylex brand motherboard. I still have the Mitsubishi monitor as a
backup. 3 of us guys drove down there in my Ford Bronco SUV, and came
home with it full including a Celestron Telescope. :)

Howard Winter wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2007\01\25@120921 by Wouter van Ooijen

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> > The argument should not be CLI vs GUI, but good vs bad interface.
>
> There are things that you need to accomplish that are going to be
> "obscure."  I don't see any difference between having to issue an
> obscure CLI command vs following a obscure GUI path, except that
> the former would seem to be a lot easier to document and less prone
> to errors of interpretation.  GUIs are a bear to document...

There are fundamental differences between GUI and CLI types of
interfaces. There are of course good and bad examples of both, but
that's another story.

The main difference for me as user is that a GUI is often easier to
start with, and more cumbersome lateron, a CLI is often the opposite.
And a big problem for me is that most GUIs are not scriptable.

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2007\01\25@121132 by Tony Smith

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> > The argument should not be CLI vs GUI, but good vs bad interface.
>
> There are things that you need to accomplish that are going
> to be "obscure."  I don't see any difference between having
> to issue an obscure CLI command vs following a obscure GUI
> path, except that the former would seem to be a lot easier to
> document and less prone to errors of interpretation.  GUIs
> are a bear to document...
>
> BillW


With the GUI you'll find it eventually, aka 'discoverability'.

That's much better than a CLI, which is:

>_


Tony

2007\01\25@123429 by Peter Bindels

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Beginner user interfaces should contain pointers that allow you to do
everything you can, expert user interfaces should contain everything
to make you accomplish as much as possible with as few as possible
keystrokes / mouse clicks and mouse/keyboard switches. The system
described above for expert input is a very good example, Windows'
common behaviour on me is a really bad example. Everytime I type
something I can't know what to expect since it depends on a lot of
things - my computer being slow (work computer) being one of the major
factors. Since it's slow it doesn't process events for a few seconds
causing my key strokes to be sent to the wrong application or plain
ignored. I also have to use a number of applications that were
designed in a time when the user was some after-market consideration
and where the main point was being able to keep data integrity. It can
usually keep data integrity, it crashes more than once a week and it's
horrendous to work with, pestering you with message boxes, very very
unpredictable behaviour (example: if you click the scroll bar before
it appears, you click the underlying window instead. It takes the
scroll bar about a full second to appear, so I regularly press the
button below) and being generically slow (10 minutes for an operation
seems like it's trying to keep data integrity by doing one thing at a
time - what in gods name does that do on a 2.8ghz HT computer?). I'm
usually annoyed when I get a UI that doesn't allow me to work while
it's updating the UI.

This isn't limited to Windows or obscure applications though. I run
KDE at home, when I start up I want to start gaim, xmms, kmix and
firefox. Starting them as fast as I can type doesn't work - KDE misses
a number of the ALT-F2's and newlines, causing it to complain in a
message box that it can't find gaimxmmskmix and beeping 7 times since
it can't use the characters "firefox" in that window. Going to three
websites in firefox is a disaster too - after pressing enter, ctrl-t
and www it ignores the www since that either goes to the wrong window,
it's busy or something.

Just a short rant.

On 25/01/07, Tony Smith <spam_OUTajsmithTakeThisOuTspamrivernet.com.au> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> -

2007\01\25@135906 by Rolf

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Howard Winter wrote:
{Quote hidden}

That's not the real problem..... the real problem would be dealing with
all the things you buy... "Sir, you can not take that 18foot radio mast
as hand luggage...."

Rolf

2007\01\25@150432 by Rolf

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David VanHorn wrote:
>> That's not the real problem..... the real problem would be dealing with
>> all the things you buy... "Sir, you can not take that 18foot radio mast
>> as hand luggage...."
>>    
>
>
> I know a guy who took a rocket as hand luggage.
>
> Very similar to the one on this page, http://www.mbrocketry.com/
> but made from carbon composites.  It was knocked down in sections, and not
> fuled of course.
> I was kind of amazed that he pulled that off, but of course him being him,
> he showed up at the airport with it fully assembled.
>  
My funny airport story....

I was booked on to a flight from Toronto to London, UK. There was a
family in front of me, three young-ish teenager-ish kids (boys) between
12 and 15, I'd guess. They were getting a connecting flight from London
to Riyadh, Saudi Arabia. Based on that destination and obvious
"middle-eastern" features, it was apparent that they were all Saudi-Arabian.

Anyways, they were horribly over-packed. They must have had 3 suit-cases
each, and the ones I saw loaded in to the counter-scale looked very
heavy. It was at about this time that I started observing the
proceedings more closely. The  check-in staff member indicated it would
not be possible to check in all the  luggage that was presented. It was
simply too much and too heavy. After much wrangling, and a lot of
non-English discussions amongst the "huddled" family, they identified
two suit-cases that apparently could be consigned to an excess baggage
flight to be sent unaccompanied. The youngest kid propped the one
suit-case on it's side, opened it carefully, and extracted the largest
super-soaker water gun I have ever seen. He assembled three large
sections together to create this wet weapon about 5 feet long, with a
water canister that could probably hold a gallon.

He  caressed it a couple of times, dis-assembled it, and packed it back
in to the bubblewrap and back in to the bag.

He watched the porter load the bag on to a trolley, and cart it off in
to the bowels of the terminal.

Man, the emotion in that kid's face was  tear-jerking.

I guess you are almost a prince in Saudi-Arabia  if you are the
12-year-old with the largest super-soaker.

Rolf

2007\01\26@070532 by Howard Winter

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On Thu, 25 Jan 2007 14:02:02 -0500, Rolf wrote:

> Howard Winter wrote:
>...
> > I'd love to go one year, but it's a bit far from my usual landing places in the US (NYC & SoCal), sadly.
> >  
> That's not the real problem..... the real problem would be dealing with
> all the things you buy... "Sir, you can not take that 18foot radio mast
> as hand luggage...."

But it'll sit on the floor along the aisle - I'm sure the other passengers won't mind stepping over it!

Now, where can I put this 5kW diesel generator?  :-)

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2007\01\26@111513 by Enrique Avalle

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Hi Herbert, list:

Two things first: This is my opinion only ! And also I am not biased forward
Microsoft in any way !! It is just my knowledge and experience, which I
expose below.


{Quote hidden}

Here I dissent: They are different products. Windows 98 is for family / non
secure / non critical usage, a revamped windows95, with some additions,
particularly in 32bit robusteness and networking.

You are talking about two completely different product lines. Win 2k did not
come AFTER windows 98 ... It came after windows NT 4.0 ... Which in turn was
the grandson of IBM / Microsoft's OS2.


>
> Then came winxp, which offered basically nothing over win2k
> except a cartoonish theme and some minor feature additions.

Well, no exactly. MS took win2k philosophy and implemented it into the
"family" line of products: Windows XP home, is not expensive, BUT it
incorporates all their inner workings from windows 2k (far more expensive
and robust).

They also included 64bit support.

They solidified better programming groundings. Also they created other
specialized branches, like windows MEDIA CENTER, etc.


>
> Now we have vista, a product WAY overdue, a product that's
> basically win2k, with a crapload of fluff. I've used vista,
> it's nothing special.
> Sure, it has some neat features, but these are features the
> competition has had FOR YEARS.

YES. I agree with you from now onwards. Starting with Vista, it is my
opinion that MS went backwards / berzerk ...


>
> TTYL


Regards,

Enrique Avalle


2007\01\26@133514 by Herbert Graf

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On Thu, 2007-01-25 at 23:31 -0200, Enrique Avalle wrote:
> > Win2k was then released, FAR better then the win9x series,
> > but also WAY late.
>
> Here I dissent: They are different products. Windows 98 is for family / non
> secure / non critical usage, a revamped windows95, with some additions,
> particularly in 32bit robusteness and networking.
>
> You are talking about two completely different product lines. Win 2k did not
> come AFTER windows 98 ... It came after windows NT 4.0 ... Which in turn was
> the grandson of IBM / Microsoft's OS2.

Yes, officially according to Microsoft win9x and win2k were two
completely different lines, 9x meant for consumers, 2k meant for
business.

That said, win2k and winMe came out at a similar point in time, and
while many "consumers" were convinced to take the crap that winME was,
many more knowledgeable consumers went with win2k.

I was a computer salesman at the time of winME/win2k. Despite ME being
"meant" for consumers, many consumers made the right choice and went for
2k instead (of the consumers that didn't want 2k, I actually recommended
they install 98SE instead of ME, ME was that bad).

MS may have meant 2k to be the "professional" OS, but few consumers saw
it that way. They were itching for a stable OS that offered something
tangible above win9x. MS told them ME is what they wanted. MS was wrong,
and consumers saw that.

> > Then came winxp, which offered basically nothing over win2k
> > except a cartoonish theme and some minor feature additions.
>
> Well, no exactly. MS took win2k philosophy and implemented it into the
> "family" line of products: Windows XP home, is not expensive, BUT it
> incorporates all their inner workings from windows 2k (far more expensive
> and robust).

But what does XP have over 2k (aside from the cartoonish theme)? There
are a few minor things, but on the whole XP offers very little that 2k
didn't. That's my point. No matter what MS was trying on their marketing
side, XP does NOT offer enough IMHO to warrant an upgrade from 2k. In
fact, I run 2k on my desk at work. I could upgrade to XP at any moment
for free (company site license), I don't since it doesn't offer me a
single thing I want. At home my laptop runs XP, only because that's what
it came with. If it hadn't come with an OS I probably would have
installed 2k.

> They also included 64bit support.

Yes, unfortunately the lack of 64bit drivers were a real issue. That and
how late it was means that very few consumers even know it exists, and I
don't think many vendors install it (certainly the major ones don't).

> They solidified better programming groundings. Also they created other
> specialized branches, like windows MEDIA CENTER, etc.

Media centre showed promise. Unfortunately although marketing makes
people think media centre is very successful (i.e. Dell outfits many of
their desktops with media centre by default, yet few people buy these
computers for the media centre feature set). VERY few people that have
media centre use any of the features that make it different from XP.
Media centre was an average piece of kit for it's time, now it's
outdated and stale, like the rest of the line.

I kinda feel sad for Windows. It WAS a good product, with ALOT of
potential. MS let it stagnate, and now look where we are.

TTYL

2007\01\28@060417 by Xiaofan Chen

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On 1/27/07, Herbert Graf <mailinglist3spamKILLspamfarcite.net> wrote:
> But what does XP have over 2k (aside from the cartoonish theme)? There
> are a few minor things, but on the whole XP offers very little that 2k
> didn't. That's my point. No matter what MS was trying on their marketing
> side, XP does NOT offer enough IMHO to warrant an upgrade from 2k. In
> fact, I run 2k on my desk at work. I could upgrade to XP at any moment
> for free (company site license), I don't since it doesn't offer me a
> single thing I want. At home my laptop runs XP, only because that's what
> it came with. If it hadn't come with an OS I probably would have
> installed 2k.
>

I have to disagree here. Windows XP supports much more hardware than
Windows 2k. For Laptop users, Windows XP has much better power
management features. Windows 2k support will soon finish yet
Windows XP support will be extended to year 2014.

One obvious thing XP is better is that the startup time is much shorter
than Windows 2k, especially in a networked environment.

That being said, most of the Windows aler are not from upgrade,
but from new computer sale. So it is right not to update Windows
but to buy a new PC.

2007\01\28@072717 by Gerhard Fiedler

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Xiaofan Chen wrote:

> On 1/27/07, Herbert Graf <.....mailinglist3KILLspamspam.....farcite.net> wrote:
>> But what does XP have over 2k (aside from the cartoonish theme)?
>
> I have to disagree here. Windows XP supports much more hardware than
> Windows 2k.

I also think that while the step from 2k Pro to XP Pro wasn't that big, XP
introduced XP Home, meant as next step up for the 9x users. I'm no
particular friend of XP Home, but I can see the logic. XP also started a
separation in naming between the 32bit desktop and server systems. Up to
and including 2k it was 2k Server, 2k Pro and 98SE, afterwards it was 2k3
Server, XP Pro and XP Home.

While you can dismiss things like these as marketing, they also can be seen
as product line organization.

Gerhard


'[EE] Taking the fun out of computers - WindowsVist'
2007\02\04@192412 by peter green
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> I do not quite understand why so many people hate Windows.
because its a buggy closed black box pile of shit that is expensive and now actively working against any users who try to do something microsoft or its big buisness buddies disaprove of (drm, product activation etc) but the computer industry has developed in a way that has made it virtually impossible to avoid using it.



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