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'[EE] TQFP PCB adaptor to DIP, anywhere?'
2006\09\14@041602 by Ariel Rocholl

picon face
Hi,

I can find in eBay and some other places adaptors for TSOP, SSOP, etc but I
couldn't find anything for a 64 TQFP or 80 TQFP. Does anyone know or should
I design my own one and go to Futurlec or Olimex to do a custom PCB? The
fact that there is no option for this is a bit surprising, given that most
of the dsPIC and high end PIC18 are 64, 80 or 100 TQFP.

I did find some adaptors with an ATMEL 128 already soldered on it, but there
is no way to reuse as the pinout is different than PICs.

Thanks
Ariel Rocholl
Madrid, Spain

2006\09\14@044133 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> I can find in eBay and some other places adaptors for TSOP,
> SSOP, etc but I
> couldn't find anything for a 64 TQFP or 80 TQFP. Does anyone
> know or should
> I design my own one and go to Futurlec or Olimex to do a
> custom PCB? The
> fact that there is no option for this is a bit surprising,
> given that most
> of the dsPIC and high end PIC18 are 64, 80 or 100 TQFP.

I am thinking of selling some of those adapters, but I am not sure what
the 'external' pinout should be. DIP-spaces pins on 4 edges? Or
DIP40-form with an extra row of pins outside and parrallel to the DIP40
pins?

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2006\09\14@045244 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>I am thinking of selling some of those adapters, but I am not
>sure what the 'external' pinout should be. DIP-spaces pins on
>4 edges? Or DIP40-form with an extra row of pins outside and
>parrallel to the DIP40 pins?

and on-board RJ-12 connector pads (rather than bringing them out to pins on
the DIP connection) wired to the secondary debug pins, which are on some
chips like the 18F4550 ?

2006\09\14@052949 by Ariel Rocholl

picon face
> I can find in eBay and some other places adaptors for TSOP,
> > SSOP, etc but I
> > couldn't find anything for a 64 TQFP or 80 TQFP. Does anyone
> > know or should
> > I design my own one and go to Futurlec or Olimex to do a
> > custom PCB? The
> > fact that there is no option for this is a bit surprising,
> > given that most
> > of the dsPIC and high end PIC18 are 64, 80 or 100 TQFP.
>
> I am thinking of selling some of those adapters, but I am not sure what
> the 'external' pinout should be. DIP-spaces pins on 4 edges? Or
> DIP40-form with an extra row of pins outside and parrallel to the DIP40
> pins?


>From my perspective, anything is a better option that what we have now:
nothing. My preference though, would be something like this: *
http://tinyurl.com/z63sg* <http://tinyurl.com/z63sg>* *but not necesarily
with all the additional stuff in the board, maybe only provision for crystal
but again that optional. Note this board is 64pin, we need 80 pin also, but
if you keep the same layout and make it larger, the advantage is you have
only two rows of parallel pins that can be easily integrated in a solderless
breadboard. Doing double DIP40 pins or using the 4 edges makes imposible to
integrate in a solderless breadboard.

2006\09\14@054150 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> >I am thinking of selling some of those adapters, but I am not
> >sure what the 'external' pinout should be. DIP-spaces pins on
> >4 edges? Or DIP40-form with an extra row of pins outside and
> >parrallel to the DIP40 pins?
>
> and on-board RJ-12 connector pads (rather than bringing them
> out to pins on
> the DIP connection) wired to the secondary debug pins, which
> are on some
> chips like the 18F4550 ?

no, if I would sell such PCBs I would prefer them to be
chip-independent.

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2006\09\14@054758 by Ariel Rocholl

picon face
>
>
> no, if I would sell such PCBs I would prefer them to be
> chip-independent.


I agree with that, chip-independent make them more reusable.

2006\09\14@081315 by Denny Esterline

picon face
part 1 1488 bytes content-type:text/plain; (decoded quoted-printable)

I drew this one up a couple weeks ago, I was going to use it to fill out the next panel I order, but that's been delayed a bit. The only thing I did that was non-universal is I connected all the ground pins (at least for the dsPIC pinout) together under the chip. I figured it'd be easy enough to cut those first if I wanted to use a chip with an incompatible pinout. The pin spacing was set to 1.375 inches, that fits most of my breadboards by jumping over one of the buss strips. I did a similar board for 84 pin PLCC a few years ago, worked out pretty good.

-Denny

{Original Message removed}

2006\09\14@081552 by Ariel Rocholl

picon face
Wouter, assuming you are thinking on producing these adapters, do you expect
this to be a days/weeks/months decission?

--
Ariel Rocholl
Madrid, Spain

2006\09\14@082016 by Tamas Rudnai

face picon face
It looks wierd, but at least it is a good background image for my desktop
:-)

Tamas


On 14/09/06, Denny Esterline <spam_OUTfirmwareTakeThisOuTspamtds.net> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> {Original Message removed}

2006\09\14@083122 by Ariel Rocholl

picon face
2006/9/14, Denny Esterline <.....firmwareKILLspamspam@spam@tds.net>:
>
> I drew this one up a couple weeks ago, I was going to use it to fill out
> the next panel I order, but that's been delayed a bit. The only thing I did
> that was non-universal is I connected all the ground pins (at least for the
> dsPIC pinout) together under the chip. I figured it'd be easy enough to cut
> those first if I wanted to use a chip with an incompatible pinout. The pin
> spacing was set to 1.375 inches, that fits most of my breadboards by
> jumping over one of the buss strips. I did a similar board for 84 pin PLCC a
> few years ago, worked out pretty good.


It definitely looks promising, wonder why there is no such option available
commercially out there yet.
Let us know how it goes, and if PCB fab you use produced a good quality
item, I will need a 80 TQFP soon so I may reuse your approach and ask for 64
and 80 filling a panel.

-Ariel

2006\09\14@095719 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> Wouter, assuming you are thinking on producing these
> adapters, do you expect
> this to be a days/weeks/months decission?

decision ~2 weeks, but having them in the shop some more weeks. But
first: what shout be the 'external' pinout?

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2006\09\14@100639 by Ariel Rocholl

picon face
2006/9/14, Wouter van Ooijen <wouterspamKILLspamvoti.nl>:
>
> > Wouter, assuming you are thinking on producing these
> > adapters, do you expect
> > this to be a days/weeks/months decission?
>
> decision ~2 weeks, but having them in the shop some more weeks. But
> first: what shout be the 'external' pinout?


For external pinout see my previous email: something like this so you can
easily plug in a solderless breadboard:
*http://tinyurl.com/z63sg*<http://tinyurl.com/z63sg>
* *


--
> Ariel Rocholl
> Madrid, Spain

2006\09\14@103532 by stef mientki

flavicon
face
Wouter van Ooijen wrote:
>> Wouter, assuming you are thinking on producing these
>> adapters, do you expect
>> this to be a days/weeks/months decission?
>>    
>
> decision ~2 weeks, but having them in the shop some more weeks. But
> first: what shout be the 'external' pinout?
>
>  
I would prefer wide DIP if it's possible.
I think dual in line is the most flexible if you want to use in a
breadboard.
If another pinning is used, at least 0.1" pin spacing is necessary for
mounting standard experiment boards.
cheers,
Stef

2006\09\14@114137 by Howard Winter

face
flavicon
picon face
Wouter,

On Thu, 14 Sep 2006 15:55:12 +0200, Wouter van Ooijen wrote:

> > Wouter, assuming you are thinking on producing these
> > adapters, do you expect
> > this to be a days/weeks/months decission?
>
> decision ~2 weeks, but having them in the shop some more weeks. But
> first: what shout be the 'external' pinout?

My feeling is that anything other than 0.1" DIP would be of limited use.  As Denny intimated, I think it needs to be pluggable into a breadboard (or
stripboard) to be of widespread interest.

Not that I'll be buying any - that's far too many pins for me to work with!  :-)

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2006\09\14@120352 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> My feeling is that anything other than 0.1" DIP would be of
> limited use.  As Denny intimated, I think it needs to be
> pluggable into a breadboard (or
> stripboard) to be of widespread interest.

But a 2x40 DIP style would be almost impossible to remove from a
breadboard?

Both a 2x40, 4x20 (DIP) and 4x20 (Quad) would fit in a sea-of holes
breadboard. Only 2x40 would reasonably fit in a stripboard.

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2006\09\14@121630 by Bob Axtell

face picon face
Ariel Rocholl wrote:
{Quote hidden}

I believe EMULATION TECHNOLOGY and LOGICAL SYSTEMS both offer such
adapters. Both
have a quite thorough catalog for Microchip Devices. As Russell says,
"Gargoyle" for 'em. Logical Systems
is slightly less expensive for the same item.

I've purchased from both, and both have VERY high quality gadgets.


--Bob

2006\09\14@122232 by Ariel Rocholl

picon face
2006/9/14, Wouter van Ooijen <EraseMEwouterspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTvoti.nl>:
>
> > My feeling is that anything other than 0.1" DIP would be of
> > limited use.  As Denny intimated, I think it needs to be
> > pluggable into a breadboard (or
> > stripboard) to be of widespread interest.
>
> But a 2x40 DIP style would be almost impossible to remove from a
> breadboard?


I do not think so, particularly if you use a ZIF socket ;-)

Both a 2x40, 4x20 (DIP) and 4x20 (Quad) would fit in a sea-of holes
> breadboard. Only 2x40 would reasonably fit in a stripboard.


--
Ariel Rocholl
Madrid, Spain

2006\09\14@122832 by Ariel Rocholl

picon face
{Quote hidden}

They have up to 44 for TQFP, and only 64 for QFP (but prepare $200 USD + tax
+ s&h), and didn't find 80 nor 100 (T)QFP at all.

--
Ariel Rocholl
Madrid, Spain

2006\09\14@123741 by David VanHorn

picon face
Emulation tech has anything, but they will want to trade your firstborn for
it. :)

2006\09\14@124344 by Bob Axtell

face picon face
Ariel Rocholl wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Oh, I see.

--Bob

2006\09\14@130142 by John

flavicon
face
I Kinda like the DIL approach

Regards

John

Wouter van Ooijen wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2006\09\14@132250 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> > But a 2x40 DIP style would be almost impossible to remove from a
> > breadboard?
>
> I do not think so, particularly if you use a ZIF socket ;-)

an 80 pin ZIF socket? does that exist?

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2006\09\14@133915 by Bob Axtell

face picon face
Wouter van Ooijen wrote:
>> I can find in eBay and some other places adaptors for TSOP,
>> SSOP, etc but I
>> couldn't find anything for a 64 TQFP or 80 TQFP. Does anyone
>> know or should
>> I design my own one and go to Futurlec or Olimex to do a
>> custom PCB? The
>> fact that there is no option for this is a bit surprising,
>> given that most
>> of the dsPIC and high end PIC18 are 64, 80 or 100 TQFP.
>>    
>
> I am thinking of selling some of those adapters, but I am not sure what
> the 'external' pinout should be. DIP-spaces pins on 4 edges? Or
> DIP40-form with an extra row of pins outside and parrallel to the DIP40
> pins?
>
>  
Wouter: if I were you, I'd just sell the PCBs, parallel (like DIP40)
only. That way they can fit into
almost any breadboard.

I would probably buy some myself.

--Bob

> Wouter van Ooijen
>
> -- -------------------------------------------
> Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
> consultancy, development, PICmicro products
> docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu
>  
>
>  

2006\09\14@135440 by Charles Craft

picon face
Would they pay the shipping?

He hasn't been listening lately so if I could trade him for a doo hickie or thing-a-mabob that would be great.

-----Original Message-----
>From: David VanHorn <dvanhornspamspam_OUTmicrobrix.com>
>Sent: Sep 14, 2006 12:37 PM
>To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <@spam@piclistKILLspamspammit.edu>
>Subject: Re: [EE] TQFP PCB adaptor to DIP, anywhere?
>
>Emulation tech has anything, but they will want to trade your firstborn for
>it. :)
>-

2006\09\14@162113 by James Newtons Massmind

face picon face

> I am thinking of selling some of those adapters, but I am not
> sure what the 'external' pinout should be. DIP-spaces pins on
> 4 edges? Or DIP40-form with an extra row of pins outside and
> parrallel to the DIP40 pins?

http://techref.massmind.org/techref/pcbixmax.htm

---
James.


2006\09\14@164449 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> > I am thinking of selling some of those adapters, but I am not
> > sure what the 'external' pinout should be. DIP-spaces pins on
> > 4 edges? Or DIP40-form with an extra row of pins outside and
> > parrallel to the DIP40 pins?

> http://techref.massmind.org/techref/pcbixmax.htm

That's a lot of text, but I don't see a preference, or do you mean the
4-row edge? Does not sound breadboard-friendly to me.

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2006\09\14@170301 by peter green

flavicon
face

>
> no, if I would sell such PCBs I would prefer them to be
> chip-independent.
>
for the larger pin counts i agree since the boards they drop into would have
to be custom anyway but a device with a 44 pin TQFP pic on to drop into a
standard 40 pin socket and provide a seperate connection to the dedicated
ICSP/ICD port would rock for those who needed all the normal pins for thier
application and wanted to debug stuff.

2006\09\14@170636 by T C

picon face
I built up some 80 pin tqfp adapters that I think allowed for thru-hole or
SMT
decoupling caps and a crystal.
I think I may have made a provision for ICD2 but I don't recall.
I think I've got between 500-1000 left right now.
I can let them go at cost.
They take 20 .1 inch on four sides.
I think most are bare board although I probably have the 20 pin
headers/sockets here too.
IIRC, the final size is 2"x2" but they're panelized onto 10"x10" snappable
panels.
Email Me if there is any interest.
TIA


2006\09\14@173501 by T C

picon face
>I think I've got between 500-1000 left right now.
>I can let them go at cost.

When I re-read this it sounds like I'm only dumping them as a lot.

I can do this but I'd prefer to let them go in small sizes (1,2,5...pieces)
to maximize the goodwill to hobbyists, etc. with limited resources.


2006\09\14@173556 by Bob Axtell

face picon face
Wouter van Ooijen wrote:
{Quote hidden}

I'm considering the PIC18F8722 which is TQFP80. I'll lay it out to two
40 DIL spaced 1.0" apart, 0.100" pin spacing.
The ideal pin header for it would be Mill-Max #800-10-064-10-001000,
Digikey# ED7264-ND.  You'd need two strips
of 64 pins to get two strips of 40 pins. Wouter, I'll send you the
Gerbers without any company markings before the weekend
is over. You can get 'em made and I'll buy one.

--Bob

2006\09\14@180944 by James Newtons Massmind

face picon face
Well, the point is that it supports MANY different options.

The idea is just to run a row or two of signals near the edge of the board
with a row of grounds next to that. Then you can do many different types of
connections. If you put in one RA SIL on one side and another RA SIL on the
other side (next row of pins) and then trim the longer set, it will set,
edge on, in the center of a whiteboard. Or you can connect it with a ribbon
cable to DIP adapter. Or... Or... Or...

---
James.



> {Original Message removed}

2006\09\14@194358 by Denny Esterline

picon face
>
> > My feeling is that anything other than 0.1" DIP would be of
> > limited use.  As Denny intimated, I think it needs to be
> > pluggable into a breadboard (or
> > stripboard) to be of widespread interest.
>
> But a 2x40 DIP style would be almost impossible to remove from a
> breadboard?
>
> Both a 2x40, 4x20 (DIP) and 4x20 (Quad) would fit in a sea-of holes
> breadboard. Only 2x40 would reasonably fit in a stripboard.


Difficult, but not impossible. The 2x42 (DIP)  84 pin PLCC adaptor I built
before was a bit of a task to get out (especialy since it was homebrew on
0.032 thick PCB :-) But take a little time and work at it with a screwdriver
and it came out fine.

-Denny

2006\09\14@195308 by Denny Esterline

picon face
I was thinking about this this today and I had a thought. With a little
effort the bottom could be made into two uncommited 'power planes'. One most
of the space between the rows of pins, the other a ring around the outside.
Then add pads for two surface mount parts to each pin, one to each plane.
With some care it could be setup where a solder bridge can connect any pin
to either of the 'power planes', pull up or pull down resistors could be
added to any of the pins (or fixed voltage dividers if you added both) or
bypass caps. Lot's of flexibility without adding cost.

-Denny

2006\09\14@233831 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face

On Sep 14, 2006, at 5:13 AM, Denny Esterline wrote:

> I drew this one up a couple weeks ago, I was going to use it to
> fill out the next panel I order, but that's been delayed a bit.
> The only thing I did that was non-universal is I connected all
> the ground pins ...

Yeah, I worry about TQFP to DIP adaptors if they don't have some
sort of intelligent power distribution and bypassing.  Those wires
get to be long and thin by the time they get all the way to a DIP
pin, and then they have to come back to a bypass cap...

BillW

2006\09\15@015903 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> The idea is just to run a row or two of signals near the edge
> of the board
> with a row of grounds next to that. Then you can do many
> different types of
> connections. If you put in one RA SIL on one side and another
> RA SIL on the
> other side (next row of pins) and then trim the longer set,
> it will set,
> edge on, in the center of a whiteboard. Or you can connect it
> with a ribbon
> cable to DIP adapter. Or... Or... Or...

True, but not useable for a solderless breadboard, and not easy for a
stripeboard, or do I miss something?

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2006\09\15@015903 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> With some care it could be setup where a solder bridge can
> connect any pin
> to either of the 'power planes', pull up or pull down
> resistors could be
> added to any of the pins (or fixed voltage dividers if you
> added both) or
> bypass caps. Lot's of flexibility without adding cost.

I like that idea, but I don't see how it can be done. Do you imagine TH
or SMD for those pull-up/downs and caps? TH would occupy a lot of space
(makes the PCB too wide), I don't see how SMD could offer the choice of
ground/power (unless you want to dedicate both sides for this purpose).
Oh, and there are chips with multiple powers....

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2006\09\15@015903 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> I'm considering the PIC18F8722 which is TQFP80. I'll lay it
> out to two
> 40 DIL spaced 1.0" apart, 0.100" pin spacing.
> The ideal pin header for it would be Mill-Max #800-10-064-10-001000,
> Digikey# ED7264-ND.  You'd need two strips
> of 64 pins to get two strips of 40 pins. Wouter, I'll send you the
> Gerbers without any company markings before the weekend
> is over. You can get 'em made and I'll buy one.

If you use eagle better send the eagle files.

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2006\09\15@100246 by Denny Esterline

picon face
part 1 1866 bytes content-type:text/plain; (decoded quoted-printable)

> > With some care it could be setup where a solder bridge can > > connect any pin
> > to either of the 'power planes', pull up or pull down > > resistors could be
> > added to any of the pins (or fixed voltage dividers if you > > added both) or
> > bypass caps. Lot's of flexibility without adding cost.
> > I like that idea, but I don't see how it can be done. Do you imagine TH
> or SMD for those pull-up/downs and caps? TH would occupy a lot of space
> (makes the PCB too wide), I don't see how SMD could offer the choice of
> ground/power (unless you want to dedicate both sides for this purpose).
> Oh, and there are chips with multiple powers....
> > Wouter van Ooijen
>
Wouter, I just sent you my Eagle file of what I was thinking, but here's a little corner so we can all see it. The top layer is exactly the same as before, I just added some planes and pads to the bottom layer.

Each pin connects to two surface mount footprints, the other side of each one connects to it's common plane. The larger plane covers most of the center of the board and the other is a ring around the perimeter. I drew a new library part for this, it's basically a universal SMD discrete pattern. The two pads are about 0.012" apart, which should be close enough to solder bridge. And the pads are big enough to accept parts as large as 1206, so it should take anything a person might want to hand solder :-)

In use I envision a process like this- Since both planes are uncommitted - declare one power and the other ground. Add solder bridges to connect all the power and ground pins to their respective planes, add decoupling caps to the sets of power pads that didn't get bridged. Add pull up or pull down resistors to any pins that need them.

-Denny

part 2 4320 bytes content-type:image/gif; (decode)


part 3 35 bytes content-type:text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
(decoded 7bit)

2006\09\15@133633 by James Newtons Massmind

face picon face
Maybe a picture will help:

 ||h
 ||P
 ||
 ||-,
,-|| |
|    |

Where the || is the PCB with the SMT (P)art on it. You are looking at it
edge on, from the side. The RA SIL headers are attached at the bottom and
come out on either side. One is trimmed so that they come down to the same
level despite starting at different heights. The entire thing plugs into a
whiteboard (solderless breadboard) edge on, in the center of the breadboard
just as if it were a (very tall and thin) DIP chip.

The same arrangement of holes that supports this can be used for a RA DIL
header. This is nice for plugging it into a female RA DIL on another board
or for use with strip board where you cut a separation between the rows.
Since it is standing up, you can put a lot of other components in along side
it.

||
||
||--,
||-,|
  ||

Or a straight DIL header with the PCB laid flat. This is good for ribbon
cables and especially ribbon cable to DIP socket cables.

======
||

Now, the next trick is to run one set of signals all the way along the
edge... Hard to explain, but like this:

ABCDEFGHIJ
0123456789ABCDEFGHIJ

So all the signals can be accessed by a 20 pin DIL (2 rows of 10 pins) or a
20 pin SIL (1 row of 20 pins). In this case there would be a lot more pins,
but the same idea applies.

Now you can do one RA or straight SIL which is perfect for laying down along
the edge of a whiteboard or standing up on a strip board.

Finally, I like the idea of applying a row of ground pins at least on one
side of the DIL so that if you use a cable, you can have every other wire
grounded to keep noise and cross talk to a minimum. I'll use G for the
ground pins.

ABCDEFGHIJ
0123456789ABCDEFGHIJ
GGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG

This allows all the signals to come off in an IDC cable, with one side
grounded. It does require that the ground holes be placed right at the edge
of the PCB and it means the RA headers mentioned above have to be a bit
longer to reach past the board. Note that most whiteboards have a groove
running down the center that makes for a very nice socket for the edge of
the board if you use the RA top/bottom setup at the beginning of this email.
You can also move the ground to the other side (see below)

Having the ground pins all along also allows one to setup their bench with a
batch of little two pin header sockets that run to a logic analyzer, scope
or probe of some sort. That probe can be as simple as a resistor and an LED.
I have a batch of these that I've made from PC motherboard LEDs (they come
with a two pin header already) where I've just added a resistor in line and
put some heat shrink between the header and the LED. What to know what a pin
is doing? Just stick one on that pin and the ground pin just under it. Very
neat, very easy.

That same setup is nice for standardizing the connection of switches,
buttons, pots, and other things. Even power supplies.

For power stuff, I like to run all the signals twice and move the ground up:

GGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG
ABCDEFGHIJ0123456789
0123456789ABCDEFGHIJ

Why? Because you can get .2" terminal blocks for cheap. Every other pin, top
and bottom of the board gets all the pins.
www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&sto
reId=10001&catalogId=10001&productId=152354
Imagine the @ signs are the screw in the terminal block.

@ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @
ABCDEFGHIJ0123456789
0123456789ABCDEFGHIJ
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @

Or just put them in where the power wires are. Hopefully they will all be in
one section... And best if they are the odd numbered pins with the low power
stuff on the even pins. OR you can do:

GGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG
5F6G7H8I9J0A1B2C3D4E
0A1B2C3D4E5F6G7H8I9J
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @

Where the letter pins are the high power and the numbers are the low power.
That still allows all the options above, provides maximum separation of
power and signal lines, separated by grounds in the case of IDC cable.

Maximum interconnect options in a minimum of board space.

Final note: If you add SIMM pads to the lower set of holes in that last
arrangement, you can support the SIMMStick format at Dontronics.
http://www.dontronics.com/ssinfo.html#pin Don't stress about the notch in
the side of the PCB: People who want to use it with a SIMMStick motherboard
or development kit can file or cut it themselves.

---
James.



> {Original Message removed}

2006\09\15@141447 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> Maybe a picture will help:
>
>   ||h
>   ||P
>   ||
>   ||-,
> ,-|| |
> |    |

OK, I get it. But I am not too sure that will be practical for
solderless breadboards. I think a long double row in this style (we were
talking 2x40) will be even more difficult to remove than a 'longer'
DIP40 style (where the rows are more apart). And I have my doubts about
the phyiscal reliability of the rightside (longer) pins. But I sure like
the fact that it takes up much less space than a wide DIP!

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2006\09\15@144032 by James Newtons Massmind

face picon face
>
> > Maybe a picture will help:
> >
> >   ||h
> >   ||P
> >   ||
> >   ||-,
> > ,-|| |
> > |    |
>
> OK, I get it. But I am not too sure that will be practical
> for solderless breadboards. I think a long double row in this
> style (we were talking 2x40) will be even more difficult to
> remove than a 'longer'
> DIP40 style (where the rows are more apart). And I have my
> doubts about the phyiscal reliability of the rightside
> (longer) pins. But I sure like the fact that it takes up much
> less space than a wide DIP!

What DO you think will be practical for a solderless breadboard? I'm
confused as to what other options there are, other than a single line of
pins that would fit at the edge of the breadboard.

Did you miss that the layout of pins further down the post also allows for a
single strip that fits into the edge of a solderless breadboard?

---
James.


2006\09\15@172456 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> What DO you think will be practical for a solderless breadboard?

I am not sure any 80-pin PCB will, but maybe I am too pessimistic.

If use on solderless breadboards is not important a compact PCB (4x20)
would be my preference.

> Did you miss that the layout of pins further down the post
> also allows for a
> single strip that fits into the edge of a solderless breadboard?

I did miss it, but it is also impractical because the common solderless
breadboard does not have 80 rows.

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2006\09\15@182656 by James Newtons Massmind

face picon face
> If use on solderless breadboards is not important a compact
> PCB (4x20) would be my preference.
>

Right, all those pins down the edge makes the PCB pretty big.

Another direction is to both reduce the pins and make use of the board space
by moving standard items like clock, power regulation and signal
conditioning onto the PCB and not bringing them out to the breadboard.

Another possibility is two rows on one edge and two on the opposite edge.
Then if you want to use it with a solderless breadboard, you put in the RA
SIL's on either side as I suggested along the one edge and use an IDC cable
to DIP adapter on the other. Works best if the high speed lines are on the
one edge.

---
James.


2006\09\26@192932 by Ariel Rocholl

picon face
Found it! See
http://www.active-robots.com/products/accessories/schmart-board.shtml  they
have support for 64 TQFP, and also a very "creative" 0.5mm 36-100 TQFP, see
www.active-robots.com/products/accessories/schmart-board/202-0010-02.jpg
with
some EZ technology that claim to be good for hand soldering, see included
pdf in that page it apparently helps to perfectly locate the chip. So
perfect for 80 pin PIC and dsPIC IMHO.

It is an expensive vendor, but at least there is some option (before we get
a better one from Wouter ;-)

--
Ariel Rocholl
Madrid, Spain

2006\09\27@173650 by Paul James E.

picon face

All,

You might also want to try "http://www.beldynsys.com".  They have small panels
with several adaptors on each panel.   Each panel is around $50.00 USD,
depending on the specific panel.  Give them a shot.  We have been using
their products for about two years or so now, and we wouldn't go anywhere
else if these guys have what we want.   And so far they have.

Let us all know what you think of them if you try them.  And no, I'm not
affiliated with them except as a satisfied customer.


                                               Regards,

                                                 Jim







> Found it! See
> http://www.active-robots.com/products/accessories/schmart-board.shtml
> they have support for 64 TQFP, and also a very "creative" 0.5mm 36-100
> TQFP, see
> www.active-robots.com/products/accessories/schmart-board/202-0010-
02.jpg
{Quote hidden}

> --


'[EE] TQFP PCB adaptor to DIP, anywhere?'
2006\10\13@095958 by Ariel Rocholl
picon face
Another option, they just released a very cheap adapter (I ordered a few to
test them). I bought some proto boards from these guys in the past and are
excellent quality, will tell you more when I receive (and use) the TQFP 80
proto. Note: the description says 25mil but they clarified it is a mistake
in the description, it is actually 20mil so the right one for PICs and
dsPICs.

*http://tinyurl.com/yk3qjr*


2006/9/27, Paul James E. <KILLspamjamespKILLspamspamintertex.net>:
{Quote hidden}

2006\10\14@002526 by Denny Esterline

picon face
It's round. It won't fit a breadboard, it won't fit a sea of holes perf board, and you can't put header pins in the holes. Why would anyone want this?

-Denny



{Quote hidden}

>

2006\10\14@140400 by Ariel Rocholl

picon face
I do agree. Round is a clear drawback of this design, not sure why they
choose that one. However, others selling square ones are not suitable for
breadboard either, so I use short cables to adapt to a 40 DIP and then plug
into a breadboard. It works, and it is very cheap.

2006/10/14, Denny Esterline <spamBeGonefirmwarespamBeGonespamtds.net>:
{Quote hidden}

> >

2006\10\14@150448 by Denny Esterline

picon face
Right, the normal square ones don't fit a breadboard, but at least you can use standard header pins & sockets and set them in sea of holes perfboard.

-Denny



{Quote hidden}

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