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PICList Thread
'[EE] Switchmode adaptor problem'
2007\12\17@182518 by Brent Brown

picon face
Hi,

Some switchmode adaptors I've bought recently have given me cause for concern
when I received a strong tingling sensation when touching the low voltage output.
First of all I've reported this to the suppliers as a potential saftey problem, and now
I'm checking them out for myself. I thought I would run it past the list for
comment/general interest and to make sure I'm on the right track.

These are slim line, wall-wart/plug-pack, with 2 prong plug for universal mains
voltage input (100-240V AC 50/60Hz), 12V DC 1A regulated output. One would
expect the output to be fully isolated from the input.

Using them here in New Zealand our domestic supply is 230V AC 50Hz MEN
(Multiple Earth Neutral) configuration. This is relevant to the observed problem so I
will explain it briefly. On a typical household single phase 3 -pin wall outlet there are
2 power pins (Phase and Neutral) and an earth pin. The MEN system means that
Earth and Neutral are tied together at the distribution switch board and are also
connected to a ground spike. Thus one typically measures 230V AC between
Phase and Neutral, 230V between Phase and Ground, and 0V between Neutral and
Ground.

With these adaptors I've measured 100V RMS AC, no load, between the DC output
(either wire) and Earth. In my book, this shouldn't be. The waveform is sine-like,
peakier and quite distorted around the zero crossings. Positive and negative peaks
are approx 150V with respect to Earth, or 300V pk-pk. Not noticeable whem I myself
am not earthed, very noticeable if I'm touching something that is earthed, like an
RS232 lead from my PC, or standing on a concrete floor in bare feet!  Measured
with an AC ammeter approx 170uA flows when shorted to Earth.

I checked at least 4 adaptors and got the same results. Used several different test
instruments to make sure, checked supply wiring etc.

On dis-assembling one of these adaptors I find more or less a typical front end for a
switching power supply. Mains voltage is full wave bridge rectified to a large
capacitor (22uF, 400V). The high-frequency transformer primary and secondary are
isolated, an opto coupler provides feedback, so input and output have no DC path
between them. There is one other component however that couples input and
output sides of the circuit. It is a 4.7nF 400V AC X1/Y1 rated disc capacitor.
Measures 4.3nF. It connects to the -ve terminal of the bridge and capacitor on the
primary side, and the -ve output lead.

When I remove this cap the problem goes away.

Why is it there? My guess is it is to reduce EMI by stopping the output side of the
adaptor from acting as an antenna for the HF switching. Should the cap be
connected where it is? Am I correct in saying that the -ve side of the bridge is not
0V? I would assume the capacitor to charge to approx 325V DC (230V AC x sqrt 2),
and +ve side would be +162V DC with respect to Earth, -ve side -162V. If that is the
case then the 4.7nF capacitor should be ok here, unless there is significant ripple
on the high voltage DC that it couples it to the output. Better if it were connected to
Earth, but there are only 2 prongs on the adaptor. Maybe better if it were connected
to half the DC rail (0V w.r.t Earth)?

Comments welcome. Thanks.

--
Brent Brown, Electronic Design Solutions
16 English Street, St Andrews,
Hamilton 3200, New Zealand
Ph: +64 7 849 0069
Fax: +64 7 849 0071
Cell: +64 27 433 4069
eMail:  spam_OUTbrent.brownTakeThisOuTspamclear.net.nz


2007\12\17@183938 by Bob Axtell

face picon face
Brent Brown wrote:
{Quote hidden}

That would not be legal here, in that 100VRMS is placed on the
secondary. Somebody needs to bring this to their
attention.

--Bob

2007\12\17@185934 by Brent Brown

picon face
On 17 Dec 2007 at 16:38, Bob Axtell wrote:

{Quote hidden}

> --

2007\12\17@191241 by Richard Prosser

picon face
Brent.
The capacitor is almost certainly there to assist EMI performance. But
depending on the actual requirements, there is a limit on the permitted
capacitance (including leakage)  between the primary & secondary side. I
can't remember the details but I think it comes under UL / IEC  60950
(etc.)  4n7 "seems" a very high value for this but I could be wrong.

As you state, with a 2 wire system, the best positioning for this cap would
be from midway between the + and - lines on the rectifier output but this
would require 2 (or 3, to derive a midpoint) caps. Better yet would be a
screened buried in the transformer & connected to earth but in a 2 wire
system it can't be assumed that a specific leg is actually going to be
neutral (=earth).

Richard

On 18/12/2007, Bob Axtell <.....engineerKILLspamspam@spam@cotse.net> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> -

2007\12\17@193047 by Bob Blick

face picon face
--- Bob Axtell <engineerspamKILLspamcotse.net> wrote:
> >  
> That would not be legal here, in that 100VRMS is
> placed on the
> secondary. Somebody needs to bring this to their
> attention.

Perhaps if 220V from the outlet were standard, it
would be. Checked your cellphone charger lately? I'll
bet you it has a very similar scheme, and the output
will have 60VAC common mode, because of those
capacitors.

In the US, as long as the amount of current is below a
certain amount(measured by the voltage drop across a
paralleled resistor/capacitor of forgotten values)
it's OK to have line voltage on any exposed metal or
the terminals of consumer equipment.

It's not a perfect situation, but there's very little
else they can do to reduce EMI. Insisting on 3-prong
plugs is an imperfect way of getting rid of the
voltage, but it's a hassle having the third prong, and
since cellphones aren't usually connected to a
ground-referenced device, there's little danger of
blowing out some sensitive circuitry(like you would on
a computer's sound card for instance, if you connected
it to your home theater system and both were not
grounded already).

I'm always gun-shy when interconnecting AC-powered
devices, and usually do my connections first before
plugging in the AC.

But back to Brent, I'd venture a guess that your AC
adapters are just fine and their behavior is typical.

However, if your intended purpose for them involves
something other than a standalone unit(something that
requires more connections), I'd use an adapter with
three prongs. Your local regulations may actually
require it.

Cheerful regards,

Bob

2007\12\17@204410 by Apptech

face
flavicon
face
>> That would not be legal here, in that 100VRMS is
>> placed on the secondary.

> Perhaps if 220V from the outlet were standard, it
> would be.

Which is the case in NZ

> Checked your cellphone charger lately? I'll
> bet you it has a very similar scheme, and the output
> will have 60VAC common mode, because of those
> capacitors.

I occasionally get "bitten" by such adaptors. But it seems
to only be a small minority that do this.

I find it personally unnaceptable that such a device can
give a user an unpleasant "electric shock", even if the
regulations allow it.

Long ago I had a PC parallel printer port destroyed by a
printer which used asimilar arrangement. But I'm not aware
of any other damage caused by such arrangements.

> However, if your intended purpose for them involves
> something other than a standalone unit(something that
> requires more connections), I'd use an adapter with
> three prongs. Your local regulations may actually
> require it.

NZ regulations allow two terminal connection of such
devices.

Many manufacturers seem to be able to meet EMC requirements
without thrilling their customers in this manner. Whether
"seem to be able to" and "do" are the same in this case is
another matter :-). I won't even start to wonder where such
thrilling devices are designed :-).


           Russell


2007\12\17@224856 by Bob Blick

face picon face
Bob Blick wrote:
> --- Bob Axtell <.....engineerKILLspamspam.....cotse.net> wrote:
>>>  
>> That would not be legal here, in that 100VRMS is
>> placed on the
>> secondary. Somebody needs to bring this to their
>> attention.
>
> Perhaps if 220V from the outlet were standard, it
> would be. Checked your cellphone charger lately? I'll
> bet you it has a very similar scheme, and the output
> will have 60VAC common mode, because of those
> capacitors.

Just for giggles, I checked a few different AC adapters, and some have
lots of leakage and some have not so much. So if you specify it, you can
definitely get ones that won't have much leakage current and still be legal.

Cheerful regards,

Bob

2007\12\17@231629 by Brent Brown

picon face
On 17 Dec 2007 at 19:48, Bob Blick wrote:
> Bob Blick wrote:
> > --- Bob Axtell <EraseMEengineerspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTcotse.net> wrote:
> >>>  
> >> That would not be legal here, in that 100VRMS is
> >> placed on the
> >> secondary. Somebody needs to bring this to their
> >> attention.
> >
> > Perhaps if 220V from the outlet were standard, it
> > would be. Checked your cellphone charger lately? I'll
> > bet you it has a very similar scheme, and the output
> > will have 60VAC common mode, because of those
> > capacitors.
>
> Just for giggles, I checked a few different AC adapters, and some have
> lots of leakage and some have not so much. So if you specify it, you can
> definitely get ones that won't have much leakage current and still be legal.
>

Thanks Bob, I checked a few others too... most showed some voltage but small or
no current (e.g 5uA). I did find one very bad one... strangely enough the same
brand as the adapter in question. This was a 12V DC 8A adapter, with alomst 1mA
of leakage current. That's getting way up there in my book.

--
Brent Brown, Electronic Design Solutions
16 English Street, St Andrews,
Hamilton 3200, New Zealand
Ph: +64 7 849 0069
Fax: +64 7 849 0071
Cell: +64 27 433 4069
eMail:  brent.brownspamspam_OUTclear.net.nz


2007\12\17@232311 by Brent Brown

picon face
On 18 Dec 2007 at 14:08, Apptech wrote:
<snip>
> > Checked your cellphone charger lately? I'll
> > bet you it has a very similar scheme, and the output
> > will have 60VAC common mode, because of those
> > capacitors.
>
> I occasionally get "bitten" by such adaptors. But it seems
> to only be a small minority that do this.
>
> I find it personally unnaceptable that such a device can
> give a user an unpleasant "electric shock", even if the
> regulations allow it.
>
> Long ago I had a PC parallel printer port destroyed by a
> printer which used asimilar arrangement. But I'm not aware
> of any other damage caused by such arrangements.

I've been using these on a PIC board, and I think the only thing that stopped my
ICD2 getting damaged was the fact that I had plugged in an RS232 connection from
my PIC board to my PC first, providing a ground.

On observation there is a visible spark when bringing the RS232 D9 connector
shells together... and a small audible glitch is heard through my PC's speakers! Like
you say, I find this un-acceptable for an off-the shelf consumer grade appliance.

I'll report back if the distributor of these adaptors has anything to say.

--
Brent Brown, Electronic Design Solutions
16 English Street, St Andrews,
Hamilton 3200, New Zealand
Ph: +64 7 849 0069
Fax: +64 7 849 0071
Cell: +64 27 433 4069
eMail:  @spam@brent.brownKILLspamspamclear.net.nz


2007\12\17@232750 by Brent Brown

picon face
On 18 Dec 2007 at 13:12, Richard Prosser wrote:

> Brent.
> The capacitor is almost certainly there to assist EMI performance. But
> depending on the actual requirements, there is a limit on the permitted
> capacitance (including leakage)  between the primary & secondary side. I
> can't remember the details but I think it comes under UL / IEC  60950
> (etc.)  4n7 "seems" a very high value for this but I could be wrong.
>
> As you state, with a 2 wire system, the best positioning for this cap would
> be from midway between the + and - lines on the rectifier output but this
> would require 2 (or 3, to derive a midpoint) caps. Better yet would be a
> screened buried in the transformer & connected to earth but in a 2 wire
> system it can't be assumed that a specific leg is actually going to be
> neutral (=earth).

Thanks Richard. I was thinking the rectifier output, once smoothed by the 22uF
400V cap, would have very little AC component left to be coupled by the 4n7 - but
there must be. I might have to re-think a little till I understand it better, even probe
around with my scope (fortunately my Scopemeter is fully isolated).

The reactance of 4n7 at 50Hz is approx 677k Ohms. I measure 170uA of "leakage",
which means 115V AC with respect to Earth at the bridge output.

--
Brent Brown, Electronic Design Solutions
16 English Street, St Andrews,
Hamilton 3200, New Zealand
Ph: +64 7 849 0069
Fax: +64 7 849 0071
Cell: +64 27 433 4069
eMail:  KILLspambrent.brownKILLspamspamclear.net.nz


2007\12\17@234726 by Apptech

face
flavicon
face
> Just for giggles, I checked a few different AC adapters,
> and some have
> lots of leakage and some have not so much. So if you
> specify it, you can
> definitely get ones that won't have much leakage current
> and still be legal.

The (or a ) trouble is that some come as standard equipment
with eg a laptop PC and would be expensive to replace. Or
sometimes annoyingly hard to, such as if they used a non
standard plug. Or extremely annoying to, such as  if they
contain a device that talks to the laptop etc to assure it
that it's connected to a Kosher psu (such as eg D.... * are
known to do).



       Russell

* Name obfuscated to protect the sensitive,who feel it's a
religious attack when their favourite PC company is
criticised for doing questionable things.




2007\12\18@010819 by Apptech

face
flavicon
face
{Quote hidden}

I'd be checking the regulations with a view to seeing if
they should legally be removed from the market. (I was
instrumental in initiating a product recall some years ago -
but that was toasters where one pole of the 2 pole switch
was stuck on. I would never have known about it if my nephew
had got a shock that could have killed him).


       Russell


2007\12\18@011619 by Richard Prosser

picon face
I simulated the circuit - seemed a bit of an overkill - but it quickly
showed that the + and - rails follw the AC input with  1/2 the amplitude.
The difference between them is DC 325V (or thereabouts) but both rails have
a high AC content with respect to ground.

RP


On 18/12/2007, Brent Brown <RemoveMEbrent.brownTakeThisOuTspamclear.net.nz> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> -

2007\12\18@033722 by Brent Brown

picon face
Thanks for taking the time Richard. 1/2 amplitude AC on the -ve rail explains
precisely how much leakage current I'm measuring.

Seems like there are at least two other ways the manufacturer could have
considered...

1) As you've mentioned, caps to +ve and -ve high voltage rail so midpoint is 0.
Perhaps deemed too costly due to extra parts required, other drawbacks?

2) Cap to Neutral (only suitable for use in countries with MEN networks?). Problem
is if power outlet wiring is incorrect (Phase and Neutral transposed often goes un-
noticed) then cap would be to Phase, providing full mains voltage leakage (twice as
bad as the present situation).

Brent.

{Quote hidden}

2007\12\18@041937 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>I've reported it to the suppliers of this equipment. Will chase
>them up until I get an accepatble result, eg. product withdrawl
>and free replacements. Still techincal questions to be answered
>though, ie. is it a design fault or component failure, or... ?

I would go straight to Trading Standards or the local electricity authority
inspectors, as well as the suppliers. By going to the regulatory authorities
pressure gets to bear on the supplier to fix it, and recall any units in the
field, rather than let things slide and forget about it.

2007\12\18@044827 by Brent Brown

picon face
{Quote hidden}

Thanks Russell, I'll look into that... as much as I dislike to navigate through
standards and regulations.



--
Brent Brown, Electronic Design Solutions
16 English Street, St Andrews,
Hamilton 3200, New Zealand
Ph: +64 7 849 0069
Fax: +64 7 849 0071
Cell: +64 27 433 4069
eMail:  brent.brownEraseMEspam.....clear.net.nz


2007\12\18@044912 by Brent Brown

picon face
> >I've reported it to the suppliers of this equipment. Will chase
> >them up until I get an accepatble result, eg. product withdrawl
> >and free replacements. Still techincal questions to be answered
> >though, ie. is it a design fault or component failure, or... ?
>
> I would go straight to Trading Standards or the local electricity authority
> inspectors, as well as the suppliers. By going to the regulatory authorities
> pressure gets to bear on the supplier to fix it, and recall any units in the
> field, rather than let things slide and forget about it.
>

Thanks Allan,

I've now filled in a product/appliance complaint form on the Energy Safety website,
so will see what comes of that. http://www.energysafety.govt.nz/

--
Brent Brown, Electronic Design Solutions
16 English Street, St Andrews,
Hamilton 3200, New Zealand
Ph: +64 7 849 0069
Fax: +64 7 849 0071
Cell: +64 27 433 4069
eMail:  EraseMEbrent.brownspamclear.net.nz


2007\12\18@051918 by Apptech

face
flavicon
face
> >I've reported it to the suppliers of this equipment. Will
> >chase
>>them up until I get an accepatble result, eg. product
>>withdrawl
>>and free replacements. Still techincal questions to be
>>answered
>>though, ie. is it a design fault or component failure,
>>or... ?

> I would go straight to Trading Standards or the local
> electricity authority
> inspectors, as well as the suppliers. By going to the
> regulatory authorities
> pressure gets to bear on the supplier to fix it, and
> recall any units in the
> field, rather than let things slide and forget about it.

Alas, the authorities here are (sample of 1) able to be
cowered by a large enough loud enough businessman.

In my case it was a Zip toaster involved . A time honoured
name but quite probably largely badge engineered these days.
(July 2002 my records show)

The 'boss' was a very loud very stroppy very obnoxious
bullying and supremely confident individual who was all
sweetness and light while he thought he could bend me to his
will ("just bring it in here and we will have it tested..."
/ Yeah Right.) - but a fire breathing ranting yelling
naughty wording monster once crossed. The electrical
inspectors started off very aggro when they saw how bad the
problem was, but I was very surprised how well he managed to
moderate them in very little time.

They did a newspaper recall but it would have been of most
limited efficacy and there will still be numerous of these
out there still trying to kill people. Some may have
succeeded.

I devised a simple test which allowed me to check them while
still boxed :-).
Enter wholesalers.
Crouch down at toaster display.
Open each box, pull out mains cord end.
Plug into tester.
Depress toasting lever.
Capacitance reading up and down from (phase and neutral
joined ) to body was enough to show if both leads were being
broken. Even capacitance up was really enough. Never got
"outed" while testing many dozens in various stores and
wholesalers. I found a number of duds and bought a few to
refer on.

The toaster is "safe enough" if you don't poke metal things
in it when it is mains live but "off" (but that's what
people do when toast is stuck and that's WHY they require a
2 pole switch by law OR if you dont carry it using the two
slots as finger holes (bowling ball style)
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! . That's what my Nephew did. I
cringe at the thought on ANY toaster BUT it should have been
safe and it could easily enough have killed him.

So, I hope you have better luck with your quest.

I did actually get paid a modest fee by the authorities for
my report to them.
Here FWIW (no photos)

       http://others.servebeer.com/misc/ziptoasters.doc






       Russell

2007\12\18@114433 by Martin Klingensmith

face
flavicon
face
Apptech wrote:
{Quote hidden}

At work we had an electric hot pot that was used to boil water. Someone
let it run dry and the thermal cutout did not activate. It burned,
luckily someone was close enough to the fire extinguisher.
The woman who bought it took the burned remains back to the store. They
offered her a new one...
-
Martin

2007\12\20@173000 by Brent Brown

picon face
On 18 Dec 2007 at 23:18, Apptech wrote:

{Quote hidden}

They paid you for that? It's only 7 bytes long...
D0 CF 11 E0 A1 B1 1A

No wonder there are no photo's ;-)

--
Brent Brown, Electronic Design Solutions
16 English Street, St Andrews,
Hamilton 3200, New Zealand
Ph: +64 7 849 0069
Fax: +64 7 849 0071
Cell: +64 27 433 4069
eMail:  RemoveMEbrent.brownEraseMEspamEraseMEclear.net.nz


2007\12\20@181519 by Brent Brown

picon face
On 18 Dec 2007 at 22:49, Brent Brown wrote:
> > >I've reported it to the suppliers of this equipment. Will chase
> > >them up until I get an accepatble result, eg. product withdrawl
> > >and free replacements. Still techincal questions to be answered
> > >though, ie. is it a design fault or component failure, or... ?
> >
> > I would go straight to Trading Standards or the local electricity authority
> > inspectors, as well as the suppliers. By going to the regulatory authorities
> > pressure gets to bear on the supplier to fix it, and recall any units in the
> > field, rather than let things slide and forget about it.
> >
>
> Thanks Allan,
>
> I've now filled in a product/appliance complaint form on the Energy Safety website,
> so will see what comes of that. http://www.energysafety.govt.nz/

Now i've talked to Energy Safety and they were understanding and helpful, so now I
know a little bit more. They say a certain amount of leakage current or "touch
current" is acceptable and they directed me to AS/NZS 61558 (IEC 61558). The
suppliers of this power supply have indirectly said the same thing (third hand
information only and no standards mentioned).

Of course, you have to pay for standards :-(
But I did manage to download for a free "Draft only" copy of a proposed revision of
this standard which gives me some idea of what they are talking about.

For Class I & II transformers equipped with a plug according to IEC 60083 the
maximum limit for touch current is 0.5mA RMS.

Energy Safety say they are not completely happy about this. While this amount of
current is deemed "safe" in the sense that it will not directly kill you or cause in-
voluntry muscle responses, it can cause other problems. For example, audio visual
equipment may have several pieces of equipment interconnected with cable, the
leakage current then becomes the sum total of leakage current from the individual
appliances. One bad way of being on the receiving end of this is to be on the steel
roof of your house or on an aluminium ladder while re-wiring a TV aerial connection.

On the technical side of things they say the understand that the capacitor in
question is necessary for EMC reasons, so it's a tradeoff between bad EMC
performance or leakage current. Interestingly enough the person I talked too also
said some tropical countries (read high humidity and therefore higher natural
leakage currents in general, i guess) remove the EMC requirement in the interest of
improved saftey.

Well, that's where I'm up to so far. Will look further into regulations etc. As a
registered electrical service technician I am annoyed that I have not been informed
about leakage current requirements and testing. Nothing in AS/NZS 3760 "In-
service safety inspection and testing of electrical equipment". Basically we are
required to do insulation resistance and earth continuity checks, which are both DC
tests.

--
Brent Brown, Electronic Design Solutions
16 English Street, St Andrews,
Hamilton 3200, New Zealand
Ph: +64 7 849 0069
Fax: +64 7 849 0071
Cell: +64 27 433 4069
eMail:  RemoveMEbrent.brownspam_OUTspamKILLspamclear.net.nz


2007\12\20@193750 by Apptech

face
flavicon
face
> They paid you for that? It's only 7 bytes long...
> D0 CF 11 E0 A1 B1 1A

10 cents per word :-)

Try again - should be 60 kB now.


>>         http://others.servebeer.com/misc/ziptoasters.doc



2007\12\21@025140 by Ruben Jönsson

flavicon
face

--Message-Boundary-18060
Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-description: Mail message body
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by pch.mit.edu id lBL7pqAJ017192

>=20
> For Class I & II transformers equipped with a plug according to IEC 600=
83 the
> maximum limit for touch current is 0.5mA RMS.
>=20

If you look at EN/IEC 61010-1:2001, Safety requirements for electrical=20
equipment for measurement, control and laboratory use, the basic requirem=
ent=20
for accessible parts (conductors which are directly accessible by the use=
r)=20
are:
=20
The voltage limits are 33V rms and 46.7V peak or 70VDC (less if the equip=
ment=20
is rated for wet locations).

If the voltage is higher than this, it can still be accessible but then t=
he=20
current has to be 0.5mA rms for sinusoidal waveforms, 0.7mA peak for non-
sinusoidal waveforms or mixed frequencies, or 2mA DC when measured with a=
=20
circuit that resembles the human body impedance and compensates for the c=
hange=20
of physiological response of the body with frequency.

See the attached image for the circuit. The current, in Amperes, is the v=
alue=20
that a true rms indicating voltmeater displays divided by 500.

This is valid for frequencies up to 1MHz. Above that, another circuit is =
used=20
that relates to electrical burns.=20

I have made an equipment that removes static electricity by ionizing the =
air=20
with a high voltage source. This has 20kV at accessible parts. The output=
=20
impedance is very high though. When the above circuit is connected to the=
=20
output, the voltage drops to a value below 46.7V peak which means that I =
don't=20
even have to measure the current (which is still below 0.7mA peak). It is=
still=20
very unpleasent to touch though :-) I wonder if the same limits applies t=
o=20
tazer guns? (On the other hand, these are insulated from earth and limits=
the=20
current paths to between the two needle points which should mean that you=
are=20
not likely to get the current through the heart.)

In addition to this there is also a requirement for maximum stored energy=
(only=20
if the voltage is above the limits though). The limits are 45uC charge fo=
r=20
voltages up to 15kV peak or DC and 350mJ stored energy for voltages above=
15kV=20
peak or DC.

This applies to normal condition. For single fault conditions the limits =
are a=20
bit higher.

And then there is of course a lot of requirements for insulation between=20
hazardous voltages and accessible parts.

(I hope I havn't violated any laws by submitting the figure and this text=
but I=20
think it is available elsewhere on the internet so I take my chance)

A merry Christmas to all participants of this list who constantly contrib=
utes=20
to increase my knowledge about [PIC], [EE] and not in the least [OT].

Perhaps I should say a merry SAFE Christmas. Don't forget to check that t=
hose=20
christmas lights complies to the relevant safety standards and remember t=
hat=20
there is a difference between indoor and outdoor use.

/Ruben

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Ruben J=F6nsson
AB Liros Electronic
Box 9124, 200 39 Malm=F6, Sweden
TEL INT +46 40142078
FAX INT +46 40947388
RemoveMErubenTakeThisOuTspamspampp.sbbs.se
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
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2007\12\21@041711 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>> I did actually get paid a modest fee by the authorities for
>> my report to them.
>> Here FWIW (no photos)
>>
>>         others.servebeer.com/misc/ziptoasters.doc
>>
>
>They paid you for that? It's only 7 bytes long...
>D0 CF 11 E0 A1 B1 1A
>
>No wonder there are no photo's ;-)

Opened all right for me just now.

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