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'[EE] Stripping Kapton tape adhesive'
2017\12\07@114107 by Bob Blick

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I'm trying to use Kapton tape as a transistor insulator. Normally I'd use it as-is with some heatsink grease. But this time I want to first strip off the adhesive for better thermal transmission.

My favorite strong solvent is acetone, and it works so-so on 3M 5419 tape, but the roll I have is a little narrow. The wide stuff I have is some generic Chinese tape and its adhesive does not want to come off. I've also tried lacquer thinner, brake fluid and "white gas"(camping fuel). The camping fuel comes closest to working but not really.

I'm trying to avoid using gasoline, but it's probably what I'll try next.

Any ideas?

Thanks,

Bob
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2017\12\07@114910 by Clint Jay

picon face
Isopropyl alcohol?



I also have some label remover that works really well, it has a strong
orange scent, http://www.sticky-off.co.UK may give you an idea of what it is?

On 7 Dec 2017 16:42, "Bob Blick" <spam_OUTbobblickTakeThisOuTspamoutlook.com> wrote:

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2017\12\07@114945 by Denny Esterline

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No solvent suggestions here, but...
Part number 2271K24 from McMaster-Carr is a 0.002" thick kapton film with
no adhesive, $27 per square foot.
They class it as "Thermally conductive" but I don't think its composition
is any different than any other kapton film.



On Thu, Dec 7, 2017 at 9:41 AM, Bob Blick <.....bobblickKILLspamspam@spam@outlook.com> wrote:

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2017\12\07@115030 by Sean Breheny

face picon face
Have you tried GooGone? I think the main active ingredient is limonene

On Thu, Dec 7, 2017 at 11:41 AM, Bob Blick <bobblickspamKILLspamoutlook.com> wrote:

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2017\12\07@115202 by Sean Breheny

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Kapton has a higher than usual thermal conductivity for a plastic, I think.
Even more important, though, is that it can insulate rather high voltages
with very thin film so you can make it thin enough that the heat transfer
is good.

On Thu, Dec 7, 2017 at 11:49 AM, Denny Esterline <.....desterlineKILLspamspam.....gmail.com>
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2017\12\07@120247 by Van Horn, David

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Xylene?  Nasty stuff but it gets to things that acetone etc don't touch.

-----Original Message-----
From: piclist-bouncesspamspam_OUTmit.edu [@spam@piclist-bouncesKILLspamspammit.edu] On Behalf Of Bob Blick
Sent: Thursday, December 7, 2017 9:41 AM
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
Subject: [EE] Stripping Kapton tape adhesive

I'm trying to use Kapton tape as a transistor insulator. Normally I'd use it as-is with some heatsink grease. But this time I want to first strip off the adhesive for better thermal transmission.

My favorite strong solvent is acetone, and it works so-so on 3M 5419 tape, but the roll I have is a little narrow. The wide stuff I have is some generic Chinese tape and its adhesive does not want to come off. I've also tried lacquer thinner, brake fluid and "white gas"(camping fuel). The camping fuel comes closest to working but not really.

I'm trying to avoid using gasoline, but it's probably what I'll try next.

Any ideas?

Thanks,

Bob
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2017\12\07@124327 by Bob Blick

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Xylene. Yuck. I'll save that one for last, after toluene. I hate them. Thought for sure the lacquer thinner would work, but today's "safe" lacquer thinner seems pretty useless.

Alcohols (isopropyl and ethyl) don't seem to touch it.

Goo-gone is something I will try, though I'll have to use something to remove the goo-gone afterwards.
This adhesive is good stuff!

The Kapton film itself is thin, barely 0.001" and really tough. The adhesive adds almost 0.002" so I want to get rid of it.

I'm too cheap to buy plain Kapton film when I've already got these rolls of tape and a closet full of assorted household chemicals. I still have a few choices left to try, and I haven't yet tried the most powerful household chemical, cat vomit :)

Thanks for the suggestions.

Bob



________________________________________
From: KILLspampiclist-bouncesKILLspamspammit.edu <RemoveMEpiclist-bouncesTakeThisOuTspammit.edu> on behalf of Van Horn, David
Sent: Thursday, December 7, 2017 9:02 AM
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
Subject: RE: [EE] Stripping Kapton tape adhesive

Xylene?  Nasty stuff but it gets to things that acetone etc don't touch.

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2017\12\07@142051 by Denny Esterline

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> <snip>




> I haven't yet tried the most powerful household chemical, cat vomit :)
>
>
>
Do you have the MSDS for that?

:-)
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2017\12\07@143544 by Van Horn, David

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MSDS:  " run.."


-----Original Message-----
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Sent: Thursday, December 7, 2017 12:21 PM
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Subject: Re: [EE] Stripping Kapton tape adhesive

> <snip>




> I haven't yet tried the most powerful household chemical, cat vomit :)
>
>
>
Do you have the MSDS for that?

:-)
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2017\12\07@144224 by jim

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Try Brake Clean for automotive brakes.  
Regards,

Jim

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2017\12\07@144353 by Bob Blick

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I did, but the dog ate it!


> I haven't yet tried the most powerful household chemical, cat vomit :)
>
>
>
Do you have the MSDS for that?

:-)

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2017\12\07@163517 by Bob Blick

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Goo-Gone didn't work. Carb cleaner and brake cleaner didn't work. Gasoline made a small effect if I rubbed hard. This is a very durable adhesive.

I might soak some tape in camping fuel for a while and see how that works.

Bob


________________________________________
From: EraseMEpiclist-bouncesspammit.edu <RemoveMEpiclist-bouncesEraseMEspamEraseMEmit.edu> on behalf of Bob Blick
Sent: Thursday, December 7, 2017 9:43 AM
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
Subject: Re: [EE] Stripping Kapton tape adhesive

Xylene. Yuck. I'll save that one for last, after toluene. I hate them. Thought for sure the lacquer thinner would work, but today's "safe" lacquer thinner seems pretty useless.

Alcohols (isopropyl and ethyl) don't seem to touch it.

Goo-gone is something I will try, though I'll have to use something to remove the goo-gone afterwards.

This adhesive is good stuff!

The Kapton film itself is thin, barely 0.001" and really tough. The adhesive adds almost 0.002" so I want to get rid of it.

I'm too cheap to buy plain Kapton film when I've already got these rolls of tape and a closet full of assorted household chemicals. I still have a few choices left to try, and I haven't yet tried the most powerful household chemical, cat vomit :)

Thanks for the suggestions.

Bob



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2017\12\07@164931 by stephen.forrestn/a

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Eucalyptus oil? The go-to around here for glue removal...

Stephen


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Sent: Friday, 8 December 2017 8:35 AM
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public. <EraseMEpiclistspamspamspamBeGonemit.edu>
Subject: Re: [EE] Stripping Kapton tape adhesive

Goo-Gone didn't work. Carb cleaner and brake cleaner didn't work. Gasoline made a small effect if I rubbed hard. This is a very durable adhesive.

I might soak some tape in camping fuel for a while and see how that works.

Bob


________________________________________
From: RemoveMEpiclist-bouncesKILLspamspammit.edu <piclist-bouncesSTOPspamspamspam_OUTmit.edu> on behalf of Bob Blick
Sent: Thursday, December 7, 2017 9:43 AM
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
Subject: Re: [EE] Stripping Kapton tape adhesive

Xylene. Yuck. I'll save that one for last, after toluene. I hate them. Thought for sure the lacquer thinner would work, but today's "safe" lacquer thinner seems pretty useless.

Alcohols (isopropyl and ethyl) don't seem to touch it.

Goo-gone is something I will try, though I'll have to use something to remove the goo-gone afterwards.

This adhesive is good stuff!

The Kapton film itself is thin, barely 0.001" and really tough. The adhesive adds almost 0.002" so I want to get rid of it.

I'm too cheap to buy plain Kapton film when I've already got these rolls of tape and a closet full of assorted household chemicals. I still have a few choices left to try, and I haven't yet tried the most powerful household chemical, cat vomit :)

Thanks for the suggestions.

Bob



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2017\12\07@174958 by enkitec

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    I have used benzine to remove adesives.

    Mark Jordan


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2017\12\07@185003 by Ryan O'Connor

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How many do you have to do? Just use the gas and scrub hard if it's just a
few. If you need lots try the specialized super glue solvents which can
break down dried super-glue to a limited extent.

Ryan

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2017\12\07@214519 by smplx

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rub in talc and scrape. add more talc if scraping exposes adhesive before you get to the kapton. I've used this method successfully but never tried it on kaptan.

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2017\12\08@001458 by Bob Blick

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I soaked a piece in camping fuel for a few hours and the adhesive scraped off in one pass with a credit card. The piece that had goo-gone on it showed promise also after sitting for a few hours.

Thanks for all the help - maybe someone else will find the info useful.

Bob

________________________________________
From: .....piclist-bouncesspam_OUTspammit.edu <TakeThisOuTpiclist-bounces.....spamTakeThisOuTmit.edu> on behalf of Ryan O'Connor Sent: Thursday, December 7, 2017 3:49 PM
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
Subject: Re: [EE] Stripping Kapton tape adhesive

How many do you have to do? Just use the gas and scrub hard if it's just a
few. If you need lots try the specialized super glue solvents which can
break down dried super-glue to a limited extent.

Ryan

On 8 December 2017 at 11:49, enkitec wrote:

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2017\12\08@023601 by Sean Breheny

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A few years back when I began to learn more details about chemistry and
chemical safety I was surprised to find that I had the wrong impressions
about what solvents were really bad for your health and which ones were
essentially harmless as long as the quantity was never more than a tiny bit
(in other words, the difference between a carcinogen and something toxic
but which can be metabolized in small amounts like ethanol)

I always used to think that acetone was super nasty. It isn't. It occurs in
our bodies naturally in tiny amounts and it is pretty certain that
occasional hobby-level use is not a cancer risk. Of course you can get sick
if you breathe in too much or swallow any more than a few milliliters.
Isopropanol is actually a little more nasty than acetone (but not much).
Both of them are good at dissolving the fat layer under the skin if you get
them on your skin for a prolonged period. If that happens you will get a
pretty bad irritation there until the body heals and you may develop a
sensitivity.

Toluene is also not all that nasty. It is methylbenzene but the methyl
group seems to prevent most of the carcinogenic action. Maximum safe
short-term dose is less than acetone/isopropanol.

Straight benzene is nasty. Very definite carcinogen which leads to leukemia
in a significant portion of those who are exposed chronically. I would not
use it without a fume hood or a good respirator. I also don't think it is
that much better a solvent than toluene and xylene.

Xylene is dimethylbenzene (and there are three isomers as the two methyl
groups can be either opposite each other, called para-dimethylbenzene or
p-xylene or 1,4-dimethylbenzene, or one step closer (120 degrees apart)
which is meta-dimethylbenzene or m-xylene or 1,3-dimethylbenzene, or next
to each other, ortho-dimethylbenzene, o-xylene, or 1,2-dimethylbenzene).
Usually commercial xylene is a mix of these. It is similar to toluene in
toxicity - the methyl groups seem to provide some degree of protection
against carcinogenicity but the jury is still out on whether chronic
exposure could cause cancer.

Gasoline/petrol is nasty because it is a mixture which usually contains a
healthy amount of benzene.

Of course these are all super flammable (but not quite like the
ridiculousness which is diethyl ether - similar to ethanol in toxicity but
much, much more volatile so you tend to get a significant dose from
inhaling it - but wow, is it flammable and it evaporates so fast that you
lose about 10% just pouring it from one container to another)

The chlorinated solvents are worse for health (dichloromethane a.k.a.
methylene chloride, trichloromethane a.k.a. chloroform, and
tetrachloromethane a.k.a. carbon tetrachloride are all carcinogens and
neurotoxins) but they have the benefit of being almost non-flammable.






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2017\12\08@041336 by alan.b.pearce

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>
> Toluene is also not all that nasty. It is methylbenzene but the methyl group
> seems to prevent most of the carcinogenic action. Maximum safe short-term
> dose is less than acetone/isopropanol.
>
Well, that doesn't equate to the hoops we had to jump through to use a toluene based conformal coat on our PCBs. A suitable booth with high volume air extraction and use of full bunny suits while handling it.



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2017\12\08@063502 by RussellMc

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On 8 December 2017 at 10:49, <spamBeGonestephen.forrest@spam@spamspam_OUTagilent.com> wrote:

> Eucalyptus oil? The go-to around here for glue removal...
>

Eucaly​ptus oil - good

Australian Tea/Ti tree oil - about as good or perhaps better

NZ Tea tree oil - astounding in many cases.
Allegedly can be taken internally.

Carbon tetrachloride -  treat with great care
One time used for all sorts.

Trichloroethylene - use with IMMENSE care.
Effective. Nasty.



         Russell
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2017\12\08@064127 by RussellMc

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Sean answered my "what was that other stuff" mental itch.

Methylene Chloride - yee ha
Methylene chloride above a heated bath yee yee yee ha.
Nasty poisonous in various ways (see Sean's post)
BUT can be used under a layer of water which makes it a bit more remote.
Still take great care.

MC causes epoxy potting to craze, crack and break in pieces. Great if the
potted item is very mechanically robust. Mere PCB components may be
detroyed.


Russell


On 9 December 2017 at 00:34, RussellMc <TakeThisOuTapptechnzspamspamgmail.com> wrote:

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2017\12\08@073128 by Sean Breheny

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Bunny suits?! That seems a bit over-the-top unless this was an application
where you were spraying large quantities (several liters) into the air.

I obviously have not done independent research on this - I am only going by
what I've read in MSDS and other published sources that I read before using
these chemicals. The US Centers for Disease Control lists the IDLH
(Immediately Dangerous to Life or Health) threshold at 500ppm for both
benzene and toluene but they allow up to 100ppm permissible exposure level
in the workplace for toluene but only 1 ppm for benzene. They also do not
mention any risk of cancer for toluene but they do for benzene. So, I'm not
saying that toluene is just dandy and no precautions are needed, but rather
that it is considerably safer than its "parent" molecule benzene for
long-term exposure.

I also just learned that toluene is a significant risk to pregnant women
with regard to possible miscarriage so I guess it can be very nasty for
some people.

Sean


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2017\12\08@145753 by Jean-Paul Louis

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I read all about those solvents, and I am surprised that no-one has yet
mentioned MEK (Methyl Ethyl Ketone). I used it long before it was banned
from Manufacturing Floor. Mostly was to dissolve epoxy packaging on IC before
doing a die inspection with electron microscope. Also used to dissolve potting
compound for some very critical repairs.

That was a real nasty solvent, but we used good precautions like gloves,
masks and vented hoods above test area.

Just another $0.02,
Jean-Paul
N1JPL



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Just my $0.02,

Jean-Paul
N1JPL




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2017\12\08@152955 by Manu Abraham

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Dichloromethane ? or Methylene Chloride. Seems to strip even
insulation off insulated copper wire.
Use it in a well ventilated area, breathing in the vapour, not a good
idea at all. Try to have the least possible on the skin. Some amounts
dont cause a problem, but  prolonged exposure is not a good idea.
Boiling point is so low, evaporates and vanishes very fast!

Cheers,

Manu


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2017\12\08@202737 by Sean Breheny

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Manu,

When you say "insulation" here, are you referring to enamelled wire or
regular wire that you can strip mechanically? Most regular wire uses PVC
insulation and I don't think that is dissolved by DCM (dichloromethane)
although it might be softened a bit which could make it easier to remove.

PVC is really difficult to dissolve. MEK will do it but what works best is
tetrahydrofuran (THF) or a mixture of MEK and THF (which is what they use
in the PVC cement)

Sean


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2017\12\08@203535 by Sean Breheny

face picon face
MEK is in the same family (ketones) as acetone. Ketones are molecules
consisting of two alkane chains (like methyl, ethyl, butyl, propyl, etc.)
joined by a carbonyl group (carbon double-bonded to an oxygen). MEK has
somewhat higher toxicity than acetone but it isn't all that nasty (compared
to benzene or the chlorinated methanes). I think it was banned because it
is a persistent environmental pollutant.

I am very surprised that you were able to use MEK to dissolve IC packages.
Did you heat it up to do that? How long did it take?

I have done some IC "de-capping" and the only way I've learned to do it is
using either concentrated hot nitric acid (works quickly - in about 5
minutes) or concentrated hot sulfuric acid (takes much longer, about an
hour).

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2017\12\08@203755 by Sean Breheny

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I meant to add that acetone is methyl-methyl ketone.

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2017\12\09@003708 by Manu Abraham

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Hi Sean,

Sorry that wasnt clear. What I meant was the copper wire as in "magnet
wire" which has this red-brown coating over the copper. It has the
colour of varnish. But I think it is tougher than varnish. I am not
sure what exactly it is. Previously, had to scratch the insulation
with a blade to remove it. Keeping the wire in a pool of DCM, the
coating just cracks open and is easily removable. Havent tried THF
yet. Will give it a try sometime later.

Cheers,

Manu


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2017\12\09@144151 by Alan

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Conversation of increasingly toxic solvents leads me to mention my personal first try solvent or softener for anything. Cooking oil. I happen to always have olive oil but others work too. Price sticker and other tape adhesives. Greasy black automobile hands and oil paint hands etc. Toxicity? If you spill some you can just lick it up. Not really!  If you eat too much though you can get fat. Clean residue with soap and water.

Looking forward,
Al Shinn (Tinker)



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2017\12\09@152506 by speff

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Quoting Bob Blick <spamBeGonebobblickspam_OUTspamRemoveMEoutlook.com>:

> I'm trying to use Kapton tape as a transistor insulator. Normally  
> I'd use it as-is with some heatsink grease. But this time I want to  
> first strip off the adhesive for better thermal transmission.
>
> My favorite strong solvent is acetone, and it works so-so on 3M 5419  
> tape, but the roll I have is a little narrow. The wide stuff I have  
> is some generic Chinese tape and its adhesive does not want to come  
> off. I've also tried lacquer thinner, brake fluid and "white  
> gas"(camping fuel). The camping fuel comes closest to working but  
> not really.
>
> I'm trying to avoid using gasoline, but it's probably what I'll try next.
>
> Any ideas?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Bob

Hi, Bob:-

Kapton tape adhesive is typically one of two types- acrylic or silicone.

You've probably got the latter. It's hard to get off, but you know that. ;-)

Here is a thread from SMTnet that discusses the subject in an  electronic context:

http://www.smtnet.com/Forums/index.cfm?fuseaction=view_thread&Thread_ID=930

--sp






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Bob Blick <.....bobblickspamRemoveMEoutlook.com> wrote:
> Xylene. Yuck. I'll save that one for last, after toluene. I hate them.
> Thought for sure the lacquer thinner would work, but today's "safe"
> lacquer thinner seems pretty useless.
>
> Alcohols (isopropyl and ethyl) don't seem to touch it.
>
> Goo-gone is something I will try, though I'll have to use something to
> remove the goo-gone afterwards.

   If goo-gone is anything like 3M Citrus Base Cleaner, isopropyl alcohol works. It removes 3M Citrus Base Cleaner residue.
   It's my understanding that ArctiClean 1 is more-or-less Citrus Base
Cleaner. And ArctiClean 2 is more-or-less isopropyl alcohol.
   Unfortunately, given your later post, it appears that goo-gone
didn't work for you. 3M Citrus Base Cleaner contains a little more
oomph and might work (or not).

Thank you,

-- Don Kuenz, KB7RPU

Genius is nothing but a greater aptitude for patience. - de Buffon

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