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PICList Thread
'[EE] Spot welder for battery terminals'
2005\04\13@054615 by Michael Rigby-Jones

picon face
I'm after a spot welder suitable for welding tabs onto NiCd/NiMh cells
for making custom battery packs in low quantities (i.e. not enough to
get the cell manufacturers to do it).  Cost is a major factor and I'm
happy to DIY something if needs be.  I have found a hobby spot welder at
http://www.hobbyspotwelders.com/HS300A2.php which just uses a bank of
capacitors and a solid state relay, but the price seems very steep for
something that was clearly knocked up from a Radio Shack hobby box.

Has anyone DIY'd a spot welder that gave good results?  What are the
pro's/cons of a capacitive discharge solution rather than a high current
transformer?

Any information appreciated

Thanks

Mike

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2005\04\13@063416 by Hulatt, Jon

picon face
I've soldered nicads with a 200w soldering gun before. that's going to
be your cheapest diy solution to battery pack creation.

i used a small file to roughen the surface of the nicad, then a rosin
flux pen to add a *small* amount of flux to the battery and the
conductor. Then, soldering gun and plumbing solder (ie no flux in the
solder), got me some reasonable results.

The key is just getting a load of heat really quickly, you don't want to
cook the battery :) i hear they go bang if you do that :)

> {Original Message removed}

2005\04\13@065750 by Michael Rigby-Jones

picon face


>-----Original Message-----
>From: spam_OUTpiclist-bouncesTakeThisOuTspammit.edu [.....piclist-bouncesKILLspamspam@spam@mit.edu]
>Sent: 13 April 2005 11:34
>To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
>Subject: RE: [EE] Spot welder for battery terminals
>
>
>I've soldered nicads with a 200w soldering gun before. that's
>going to be your cheapest diy solution to battery pack creation.
>
>i used a small file to roughen the surface of the nicad, then
>a rosin flux pen to add a *small* amount of flux to the
>battery and the conductor. Then, soldering gun and plumbing
>solder (ie no flux in the solder), got me some reasonable results.
>
>The key is just getting a load of heat really quickly, you
>don't want to cook the battery :) i hear they go bang if you do that :)

I'm not keen to solder NiCd and NiMh cells to be honest, though I have
done it before. The manufacturers specifically advise against it as it
dosne't take much temperature to ruin the vent in the top of the cell.

Regards

Mike

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2005\04\13@095405 by John Ferrell

face picon face
I have been soldering NiCads for about 10 years with no failures. I use a 40
Watt pencil iron (the cheap kind) and solder braid. The only reason I see
for the vent is in an overcharge condition. I charge the NiCads with a max
of C/2 and use only Sanyos. Most of my packs are used in RC model airplanes
with a value exceeding $1000 so I am very fussy about battery assembly and
maintenance.

John Ferrell
http://DixieNC.US

----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Rigby-Jones" <Michael.Rigby-JonesspamKILLspambookham.com>
To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <.....piclistKILLspamspam.....mit.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2005 6:57 AM
Subject: RE: [EE] Spot welder for battery terminals


>
>
>>{Original Message removed}

2005\04\13@101256 by Michael Rigby-Jones
picon face


>-----Original Message-----
>From: EraseMEpiclist-bouncesspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTmit.edu [piclist-bouncesspamspam_OUTmit.edu]
>Sent: 13 April 2005 14:57
>To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
>Subject: Re: [EE] Spot welder for battery terminals
>
>
>I have been soldering NiCads for about 10 years with no
>failures. I use a 40
>Watt pencil iron (the cheap kind) and solder braid. The only
>reason I see
>for the vent is in an overcharge condition. I charge the
>NiCads with a max
>of C/2 and use only Sanyos. Most of my packs are used in RC
>model airplanes
>with a value exceeding $1000 so I am very fussy about battery
>assembly and
>maintenance.

Perhaps I'm being too fussy then.  The actualy reason given for not
soldering is that the heat can damage the vent seal, which no longer
seals properly.  Electrolyte can then evaporate freely as the cell will
not hold pressure, and the cells lose capacity.

Regards

Mike

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2005\04\13@103736 by Dave VanHorn

flavicon
face

>
>Perhaps I'm being too fussy then.  The actualy reason given for not
>soldering is that the heat can damage the vent seal, which no longer
>seals properly.  Electrolyte can then evaporate freely as the cell will
>not hold pressure, and the cells lose capacity.

I've talked to the battery engineers directly on this.
They all were dead set against it, even for hobby use.
They state that it is /impossible/ to solder to the positive terminal
without damaging the vent, either leaving it leaky or sealing it shut.
The latter case makes them far more nervous.  The open vent just
means that you slowly loose water from the cell.

I've seen NIMH cells with bad vents go into thermal runaway and spew
boiling electrolyte. Not pretty.
Stripped two layers off a four layer PCB quite nicely.



2005\04\14@043508 by Philip Pemberton

face picon face
In message <@spam@23075D38FE1C8144847DFAECA3565F2704E54DF4KILLspamspampai-smx-01.europe.bkhm.net>>          "Michael Rigby-Jones" <KILLspamMichael.Rigby-JonesKILLspamspambookham.com> wrote:

> I'm after a spot welder suitable for welding tabs onto NiCd/NiMh cells
> for making custom battery packs in low quantities (i.e. not enough to
> get the cell manufacturers to do it).  Cost is a major factor and I'm
> happy to DIY something if needs be.  I have found a hobby spot welder at
> http://www.hobbyspotwelders.com/HS300A2.php which just uses a bank of
> capacitors and a solid state relay, but the price seems very steep for
> something that was clearly knocked up from a Radio Shack hobby box.

I'm building a welder at the moment. Currently, my biggest problem is getting
hold of some nickel for the battery tabs (Ni200 or Ni201 alloy, 0.003"
thick). McMaster-Carr sell it, but that's no good to me - I'm a few thousand
miles away from their nearest store.. Anyone feel like ordering a roll of it
and splitting it with me? McMaster-Carr's order code for the stuff is
9707K33.

Tracking down some 5mm solid copper rod for the electrodes is alsos a bit
tricky.. no-one seems to sell anything above 2.5mm around here.

I'm using an International Rectifier 50RIA20 SCR to switch the power over,
and an SGS L200CV regulator to allow the capacitor voltage to be controlled.
My capacitor bank consists of five Cornell-Dubilier computer-grade 120uF 25V
capacitors, giving a total of 600uF, or 0.6F (the tolerance is -20/+75%
though).

Also, FYI the device you're talking about is called a "capacitive discharge
resistance welder". IIRC spot welders are completely different devices...
The idea is that you send a high current pulse through the metals that are
going to be welded. The resistance of these metals needs to be higher than
that of the electrodes - hence why copper is used. When the current pulse is
fed into the battery tab (or whatever) the heat buildup concentrates at two
points - the two points where the electrodes were located. The intense heat
melts the metals together.

Like I said - the only place I've found Ni200 nickel around here was a
scientific supplier, who wanted £59 for a 15cm square piece of Ni200 foil.
Given that McMaster-Carr sell 6" by 50" rolls for $62, I'm a little hesitant
to pay £59 for such a small amount.

Later.
-- Phil.                              | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB,
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2005\04\14@044855 by Dan Smith

face picon face
On 4/14/05, Philip Pemberton <spamBeGonephilpemspamBeGonespamdsl.pipex.com> wrote:

> Tracking down some 5mm solid copper rod for the electrodes is alsos a bit
> tricky.. no-one seems to sell anything above 2.5mm around here.

How about using a copper earth rod?  Here's a 1.2m length of 9mm
copper rod for GBP3.55 + VAT.
http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/TLER.html

Dan

2005\04\14@051930 by Michael Rigby-Jones

picon face


{Quote hidden}

That is essentialy what a spot welder does, though usualy using a low voltage/high current transformer rather than a capacititive discharge method.  I have used a spot welder for car body repairs and it's a pretty crude (though effective) device, but is far too large for spot welding battery tabs.  Either technique is "resistance welding" as they both rely on the resistance between pieces of metal to create the heat for welding.

My plan was to recycle one of the large (500-1000VA) transformers I have under my bench at home.  By stripping off the secondary and winding a few turns of very heavy cable around the primary I should be able to get enough current for spot/resistance welding.  Controlling the current is trickier, multiple taps on the primary would probably be the way to go, and no expensive SCR's are required, just a relay to switch the mains into the primary.

>Like I said - the only place I've found Ni200 nickel around
>here was a scientific supplier, who wanted £59 for a 15cm
>square piece of Ni200 foil. Given that McMaster-Carr sell 6"
>by 50" rolls for $62, I'm a little hesitant to pay £59 for
>such a small amount.

I'm having a simmilar problem, I was hoping that I would be able to buy it in a roll of the appropriate width so I could just cut lengths off, rather than having to cut lengths out of a big sheet.  I'll let you know if I find anything suitable.

Regards

Mike

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2005\04\14@052540 by Michael Rigby-Jones

picon face


>-----Original Message-----
>From: piclist-bouncesEraseMEspam.....mit.edu [EraseMEpiclist-bouncesspammit.edu]
>Sent: 14 April 2005 09:49
>To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
>Subject: Re: [EE] Spot welder for battery terminals
>
>
>On 4/14/05, Philip Pemberton <RemoveMEphilpemEraseMEspamEraseMEdsl.pipex.com> wrote:
>
>> Tracking down some 5mm solid copper rod for the electrodes
>is alsos a
>> bit tricky.. no-one seems to sell anything above 2.5mm around here.
>
>How about using a copper earth rod?  Here's a 1.2m length of
>9mm copper rod for GBP3.55 + VAT.
>http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/TLER.html
>
>Dan

Good spot (pun intentended!).  I found a couple of websites for DIY spot
welders, both for much heavier duty work than I require, and the
electrode materials are either brass or "electrolytic copper".  Links
below for anyone interested:

http://users.frii.com/katana/spotweld.html

http://www.5bears.com/welder.htm

The 5bears webiste has some fantastic model gas turbine projects,
obviously a very talented guy.  I have a feeling he is (or was) on the
piclist when he started developing his PIC based ECU.

Mike

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2005\04\14@053539 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face
On Apr 14, 2005, at 1:35 AM, Philip Pemberton wrote:

> FYI the device you're talking about is called a "capacitive discharge
> resistance welder". IIRC spot welders are completely different devices.

I swear I saw a device in one of the labs that looked EXACTLY like a
spot welder designed for doing things about the size of battery tabs
(perhaps for making thermocouples, given the nature of the lab?)
Biggish (10-20lb) transformer with vice and funny look clamps connected
to the secondary...  I mean, out of a 10A 110V circuit, you ought to be
able to get 100A @ a couple volts, which should be plenty for spot
welding moderately thin strap to moderately small pieces of
not-too-thick
battery, right?

But I never did find someone to ask if that's what it actually was...
(thermocouple welder as a google search turns up some similar looking
devices, though...)

BillW

2005\04\14@055204 by Howard Winter

face
flavicon
picon face
Dan,

On Thu, 14 Apr 2005 09:48:55 +0100, Dan Smith wrote:

> On 4/14/05, Philip Pemberton <RemoveMEphilpemspam_OUTspamKILLspamdsl.pipex.com> wrote:
>
> > Tracking down some 5mm solid copper rod for the electrodes is alsos a bit
> > tricky.. no-one seems to sell anything above 2.5mm around here.
>
> How about using a copper earth rod?  Here's a 1.2m length of 9mm
> copper rod for GBP3.55 + VAT.
> http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/TLER.html

Unfortunately these aren't solid copper, but copper-plated steel.  It might work, but even if the pointy-end
was good enough as is, you'd need to buy two because any other point you made would be steel.

Cheers,



2005\04\14@061509 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
> FYI the device you're talking about is called a "capacitive discharge
> resistance welder". IIRC spot welders are completely different devices.

Either way, you need to make electrical contact to both sides of the weld,
and I am wondering how you plan to do that with the batteries already made.
I assumed that batteries supplied with the tabs had them welded on before
assembly of the battery internals.

2005\04\14@062918 by Hulatt, Jon

picon face
what about tig welding rod?
http://www.tinmantech.com/html/copper_index.html

Jon

{Quote hidden}

> -

2005\04\14@064031 by Dan Smith

face picon face
On 4/14/05, Howard Winter <HDRWSTOPspamspamspam_OUTh2org.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On Thu, 14 Apr 2005 09:48:55 +0100, Dan Smith wrote:
> > How about using a copper earth rod?  Here's a 1.2m length of 9mm
> > copper rod for GBP3.55 + VAT.
> > http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/TLER.html
>
> Unfortunately these aren't solid copper, but copper-plated steel.  It might work, but even if the pointy-end
> was good enough as is, you'd need to buy two because any other point you made would be steel.

Doh! Didn't realise that.

RS sell copper rod rshttp://www.com

Part number 684-254 is 6mm rod and 684-260 is 12mm rod.

Dan

2005\04\14@065029 by Philip Pemberton

face picon face
In message <022c01c540da$d2fa89d0$spamBeGonee7bdf682STOPspamspamEraseMEspace.rl.ac.uk>
         "Alan B. Pearce" <KILLspamA.B.PearcespamBeGonespamrl.ac.uk> wrote:

> Either way, you need to make electrical contact to both sides of the weld,
> and I am wondering how you plan to do that with the batteries already made.
> I assumed that batteries supplied with the tabs had them welded on before
> assembly of the battery internals.

You put the tab on top of the battery terminal plate, then put both
electrodes on the same side. The current runs through the electrodes, into
the tab, then through the battery's terminal plate and back to the other
electrode. No messy disassembly required.

Later.
--
Phil.                              | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB,
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2005\04\14@071413 by Denny Esterline

picon face

----- Original Message -----
From: "Philip Pemberton"
> Tracking down some 5mm solid copper rod for the electrodes is alsos a bit
> tricky.. no-one seems to sell anything above 2.5mm around here.
>

I don't know what's available on that side of the 'pond', but here in the US
most residential electrical wiring suppliers have some bare copper 'wire'
that should be ok. It's usualy used to connect to the outdoor ground rod.
Even my local hardware has (IIRC) '00' which is about 4-5 mm dia for less
than $1 per foot. Might be worth a look.

-Denny

2005\04\14@072021 by Bob Barr

flavicon
face
On Thu, 14 Apr 2005 09:35:04 +0100, Philip Pemberton wrote:

<snip>

>
>I'm using an International Rectifier 50RIA20 SCR to switch the power over,
>and an SGS L200CV regulator to allow the capacitor voltage to be controlled.
>My capacitor bank consists of five Cornell-Dubilier computer-grade 120uF 25V
>capacitors, giving a total of 600uF, or 0.6F (the tolerance is -20/+75%
>though).
>

I think you've slipped a decimal place (actually three of them).

A capacicitance of 600 microfarads is 0.6 millifarads, 0.0006 F.

I hope you don't really need 0.6 F to get the unit to work. Otherwise,
you're going to need a lot more capacitors.


Regards, Bob

2005\04\14@073226 by Michael Rigby-Jones

picon face


{Quote hidden}

The commercial "hobby spot welder" I linked to in my fist post claims a
total capacitance of 680,000uF, so I suspect the caps that Philip is
using are 120mf.

Regards

Mike

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2005\04\14@084253 by Dave Tweed

face
flavicon
face
"Michael Rigby-Jones" <.....Michael.Rigby-Jonesspam_OUTspambookham.com>
> That is essentialy what a spot welder does, though usualy using a low
> voltage/high current transformer rather than a capacititive discharge
> method.  I have used a spot welder for car body repairs and it's a pretty
> crude (though effective) device, but is far too large for spot welding
> battery tabs.  Either technique is "resistance welding" as they both rely
> on the resistance between pieces of metal to create the heat for welding.

> My plan was to recycle one of the large (500-1000VA) transformers I have
> under my bench at home.  By stripping off the secondary and winding a few
> turns of very heavy cable around the primary I should be able to get
> enough current for spot/resistance welding.  Controlling the current is
> trickier, multiple taps on the primary would probably be the way to go,
> and no expensive SCR's are required, just a relay to switch the mains
> into the primary.

How much current does a gun-style soldering iron put through its element?
If you took the tip off, that might provide enough current to do battery
tabs.

It would be pretty convenient, too. Just take a spare tip, split it in two
and sharpen the ends to appropriate points about 1 cm apart. Then you can
hold it in one hand, use it to press the tab against the battery and pull
the trigger for a few seconds.

I suspect that the battery manufacturers do it with lasers, for minimum
heating outside the weld. There's a company that advertises in NASA Tech
Briefs all the time with examples like this.

-- Dave Tweed

2005\04\14@084548 by Philip Pemberton

face picon face
In message <TakeThisOuTv2ks51doi5tghjcok6t7n7m2u35vs3diq3.....spamTakeThisOuT4ax.com>>          Bob Barr <TakeThisOuTbbarrKILLspamspamspamcalifornia.com> wrote:

> I think you've slipped a decimal place (actually three of them).
>
> A capacicitance of 600 microfarads is 0.6 millifarads, 0.0006 F.

D'oh! Misread the label on the capacitors. They're 120,000uF, or 120
millifarads each and I've got five wired in parallel. Total is 600,000uF or
0.6 Farads.

> I hope you don't really need 0.6 F to get the unit to work. Otherwise,
> you're going to need a lot more capacitors.

No, 600,000uF is about right. 60 watt-seconds at 18V, IIRC.

Later.
--
Phil.                              | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB,
.....philpemspamRemoveMEphilpem.me.uk              | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice,
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2005\04\14@091933 by Mike Hord

picon face
> Tracking down some 5mm solid copper rod for the electrodes is alsos a bit
> tricky.. no-one seems to sell anything above 2.5mm around here.

I find that amazing.  I can drive over to the local hobby shop and buy solid
copper rods from 1/32" (possibly even 1/64") up to (at least) 3/8".

Even if I were only able to get 1/4", that still meets your 5mm needs.  Don't
hobby shops where you are stock similar scale materials?

Mike H.

PS- In the wake of DT's excellent soldering gun idea, this may be a
superfluous post, but still, I'd like to know.

2005\04\14@101321 by Philip Pemberton

face picon face
In message <RemoveME88eca92205041406193065838cspamspamBeGonemail.gmail.com>>          Mike Hord <spamBeGonemike.hord@spam@spamspam_OUTgmail.com> wrote:

> I find that amazing.  I can drive over to the local hobby shop and buy solid
> copper rods from 1/32" (possibly even 1/64") up to (at least) 3/8".

Hm. The local hobby shop here doesn't stock any metal rod stock - just brass
tube stock (i.e. hollowed out).

> Even if I were only able to get 1/4", that still meets your 5mm needs.  Don't
> hobby shops where you are stock similar scale materials?

There's one in town I could try, but I wouldn't bet on them stocking metals.

> PS- In the wake of DT's excellent soldering gun idea, this may be a
> superfluous post, but still, I'd like to know.

I doubt the solder gun trick would work. IIRC the transformer can't provide
enough power, nor can you control the amount of voltage or current fed into
the weld.

Later.
--
Phil.                              | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB,
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... User - a technical term used by computer pros. See idiot.

2005\04\14@105438 by Michael Rigby-Jones

picon face


>-----Original Message-----
>From: Dave Tweed [piclist-bouncesEraseMEspammit.edu]
>Sent: 14 April 2005 13:43
>To: RemoveMEpiclistEraseMEspamspam_OUTmit.edu
>Subject: RE: [EE] Spot welder for battery terminals
>
>
>How much current does a gun-style soldering iron put through
>its element? If you took the tip off, that might provide
>enough current to do battery tabs.
>
>It would be pretty convenient, too. Just take a spare tip,
>split it in two and sharpen the ends to appropriate points
>about 1 cm apart. Then you can hold it in one hand, use it to
>press the tab against the battery and pull the trigger for a
>few seconds.

Worth a try I guess.  They are usualy rated at 100Watts, and closed
circuit voltage will be very small, possibly too low to push enough
current through two sheets of metal.  I've been planning on getting a
solder gun for some of the more heavy duty soldering jobs anyway so
thanks for the suggestion.

>
>I suspect that the battery manufacturers do it with lasers,
>for minimum heating outside the weld. There's a company that
>advertises in NASA Tech Briefs all the time with examples like this.

My budget dosen't quite stretch to an industrial welding laser
unfortunately, and even the most powerfull of the ones we make where I
work are only capable of buring a small hole in a piece of paper. ;)

Regards

Mike

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