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'[EE] Sea rover idea, what do you guys think?'
2010\04\16@043825 by solarwind

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I've always wanted to design a long range, low maintenance, autonomous
vehicle that could be controlled/communicated with remotely. It would
have no specific purpose, rather just to show that it was done because
it could be done.

My first idea was an air unit, that would be solar powered but
something like that would be very complicated and expensive to design.
Also, I'd imagine that long lasting electric motors in the RC hobby
field are hard to come by (I'm thinking of something that would last
months to years spinning continuously). Also, even the slightest
problem in the air would be very difficult to fix and the consequences
would be catastrophic.

My next idea was a land rover design. The design would be far simpler
than that of any air unit. But what could be explored? You can't
really GO anywhere, just roam flat land.

But what about a water rover unit that could glide near the surface of
the water as well as dive down deep?

The unit would be powered entirely by solar energy. It would have a
large surface area to mass ratio. It would need to be sturdy and
tough, but also light and aerodynamic(?) enough to use its energy as
efficiently as possible. It would have all the fun stuff on board:
camera, spotlight, GPS unit and various sensors to detect depth and so
on. It would communicate long range to a base station on land via
whatever radio frequency best penetrates water (and is in the HAM
band).

The unit would surface to recharge its batteries during bright
sunlight. I'd imagine a few high efficiency solar panels would
suffice. During this time, it could also collect pressure, temperature
and other data from its onboard sensors, record the data and/or send
it to the base station. Every few months or so the unit would come
back to its origin for battery replacement and scheduled maintenance.
Other than that, it's just an idea.

This was just rattling in my mind today, though I don't know why. The
unit would be preferably small, no more than a metre in any dimension.
However, something tells me that water travel is very inefficient and
would require a lot of power - so the device would be rather large, to
accommodate all the solar panels.

I was thinking that it could be deployed in Lake Ontario. Maybe take
pictures of some of the fish.

I don't know. What do you guys think?

2010\04\16@044914 by Roger, in Bangkok

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groups.yahoo.com/group/robotrov/

On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 15:37, solarwind <spam_OUTx.solarwind.xTakeThisOuTspamgmail.com> wrote:

> ...
> ...
> I don't know. What do you guys think?
>
>

2010\04\16@052807 by John Gardner

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See http://www.google.com/search?q=underwater+gliders&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

Jack

2010\04\16@091658 by Russell McMahon

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If you search the PICList archives for "autonomous boat" (AFAIR) you should
find a lurker who was building an, natch, autonomous boat. Name escapes me
but I can probably find it. May be in Italy brain suggests.

For REAL value and triple extra points you may try my idea, which I want to
do but won't manage this lifetime.

This well predates the recent America's Cup nonsense :-)
They stole my sail idea - not me theirs.

Small - a metre or so probably.
Cat or Tri maran.
Wing sail. Steerable.
Utterly Bullet proof construction. !!!!!!!!!!
Wing may need to be made to lie down for Hurricanes.
Self righting !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Unsinkable. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(Non existeum construction as required).

SO - this should be able to be easily headed on a consistent course under
easy automatic

Solar panel (all top surface)
Minimal power needed - mainly sail steering and rudder.

Add GPS.
Camera.
Add Sat Phone for calling home - probably Disprosium (nee Irridium) who will
give yuou one free and air time if you ever get this far.

AND:  Sail it around the world autonomously.

Good enough project?

Could be done for relatively modest cost. You'd have no trouble getting a
keen team involved. Beating off the deadwood would be harder.

You could sell these to people, but that may make you unpopular with the men
in black helicopters.


   R






On 16 April 2010 20:37, solarwind <.....x.solarwind.xKILLspamspam@spam@gmail.com> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

> -

2010\04\16@095643 by Isaac Marino Bavaresco

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Em 16/4/2010 10:16, Russell McMahon escreveu:
{Quote hidden}

Won't it be too complicated to control the sail and rudder to the
correct angles to make your boat sail to the right direction?


> Add GPS.
> Camera.
> Add Sat Phone for calling home - probably Disprosium (nee Irridium) who will
> give yuou one free and air time if you ever get this far.
>  


Didn't they de-orbit (burned) all the Iridium satellites some time ago?


{Quote hidden}

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2010\04\16@125229 by John Gardner

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> ...may make you unpopular with the men in black...

With respect, fearless leader, you may have the wing on the wrong end  :)

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20527533.200-oceanology-robot-gliders-swim-the-undersea-world.html

In case the MIB are distracted, for extra credit try spec'ing 100kg payload and
low acoustic signature...

2010\04\16@125338 by Russell McMahon

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> Won't it be too complicated to control the sail and rudder to the
> correct angles to make your boat sail to the right direction?

No.
I'm no sailor, but it should [tm] be quite an easy task.
Doesn't need to be optimum, just good enough to keep on keeping on.

> Didn't they de-orbit (burned) all the Iridium satellites some time ago?

No.

     http://www.iridium.com/

That was the plan when it wasn't making money, but at the last moment
a large organisation fulfilled McMahons law of Megaproject management
* and bought it for $1 AFAIR. They don't seem to feature on the front
page. They do get mentioned as a customer here

              http://investor.iridium.com/releasedetail.cfm?ReleaseID=458564

" ...  and provides services to the U.S. Department of Defense and
other U.S. and international government agencies.  ... "


     Russell

MLoMM:

"No truly vast project can succeed unless
             - funded by a government (or several), or
             - oversold, bankrupted and bought out at cents in the dollar, or
             - both".

Examples:

STS aka Shuttle
Concord / Concorde
Disprosium / Irridium.
Chunnel
ESA
More ...

2010\04\16@140340 by Russell McMahon

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> ... you may have the wing on the wrong end  :)

> http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20527533.200-oceanology-robot-gliders-swim-the-undersea-world.html

A very cute idea.
I think a wing sail MAY be easier to do, and average velocity should
be MUCH higher.
Their machine would do circumnavigation at  equator distance in 7
months at full speed.
Land crossing smay pose a challenge :-).

2010\04\16@141813 by Olin Lathrop

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Russell McMahon wrote:
>> Won't it be too complicated to control the sail and rudder to the
>> correct angles to make your boat sail to the right direction?
>
> No.
> I'm no sailor, but it should [tm] be quite an easy task.
> Doesn't need to be optimum, just good enough to keep on keeping on.

I'm no sailor either, but with the right sensors it shouldn't be all that
hard.  Either way it's a control algorithm.  That's what microcontrollers
do.

By the way, if you're going to have the thing sail and thereby use wind
power for propultion, you might as well use that for electricity too.
Keeping the micro running, occasionally making a radio transmission, and
moving the actuators should be considerably less power than moving the thing
thru the water in a sustained way.  A little impeller connected to a
generator should be able to harness enough power.  It could be handy to
reverse the process and run it as a motor from the batteries in certain
situations.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.

2010\04\16@145153 by John Gardner

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> average velocity should be MUCH higher.

Maybe. That low to the water surface significant shrouding will be
experienced in wave trough, probably also increasing control power
consumption. Still likely faster though..

A very effective way to deal with bad weather is to dive below
wave action, meaning you don't have to build the craft to survive the
worst the Roaring Forties & Cape Horn can do.

A general-purpose craft might employ both schemes, running down
favorable winds in good weather; "gliding" in less favorable conditions.

Jack

2010\04\16@163900 by solarwind

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On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 2:51 PM, John Gardner <goflo3spamKILLspamgmail.com> wrote:
> Maybe. That low to the water surface significant shrouding will be
> experienced in wave trough, probably also increasing control power
> consumption. Still likely faster though..
>
> A very effective way to deal with bad weather is to dive below
> wave action, meaning you don't have to build the craft to survive the
> worst the Roaring Forties & Cape Horn can do.
>
> A general-purpose craft might employ both schemes, running down
> favorable winds in good weather; "gliding" in less favorable conditions.

But what is the means of propulsion when "gliding"?

This seems like a worthwhile project I could propose to my university.

2010\04\16@164443 by solarwind

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On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 9:16 AM, Russell McMahon <.....apptechnzKILLspamspam.....gmail.com> wrote:
> You could sell these to people, but that may make you unpopular with the men
> in black helicopters.

That seems to be a recurring theme with all my ideas...

2010\04\16@165447 by Eoin Ross

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Wave action. Look at the link, and then the graphic
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20527533.200-oceanology-robot-gliders-swim-the-undersea-world.html

Graphic.
http://www.newscientist.com/data/images/archive/2753/27533201.jpg


The floating part is a 'keel' for the pivoting wings(sails) under the surface.

Wave currents work on the wings much like tacking a sailboat going windward.


>>> On 16 Apr 10 at 16:38:40, in message
<EraseMEu2za94764e1004161338vf71b6675gb99112172166c015spam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTmail.gmail.com>, solarwind
<x.solarwind.xspamspam_OUTgmail.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2010\04\16@170640 by Isaac Marino Bavaresco

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Em 16/4/2010 17:38, solarwind escreveu:
> On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 2:51 PM, John Gardner <KILLspamgoflo3KILLspamspamgmail.com> wrote:
>  
>> Maybe. That low to the water surface significant shrouding will be
>> experienced in wave trough, probably also increasing control power
>> consumption. Still likely faster though..
>>
>> A very effective way to deal with bad weather is to dive below
>> wave action, meaning you don't have to build the craft to survive the
>> worst the Roaring Forties & Cape Horn can do.
>>
>> A general-purpose craft might employ both schemes, running down
>> favorable winds in good weather; "gliding" in less favorable conditions.
>>    
> But what is the means of propulsion when "gliding"?
>
> This seems like a worthwhile project I could propose to my university.
>  
>

The propulsion is the "buoyancy", The wing is shaped to impel the device
forward when it is floating upwards, at a rate much higher forward than
it is raising.
I think the same can be done when sinking, if the "angle of attack" is
changed.

So, just flood some chamber to sink some meters, if the wing is angled
correctly it will move forward also, then change the angle of the wing
and pump the water out, it will move forward some more as it raises.


Regards,

Isaac

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2010\04\16@171426 by Marcel Duchamp

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10 or 15 years ago, there was a video on the net of a man with a
contraption like that with bicycle handle bars to hold onto.  As he
pumped up and down, pivoting flaps allowed him to go skimming across a
lake.  Until he stopped.  Then it sank.

On 4/16/2010 1:54 PM, Eoin Ross wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2010\04\16@172922 by John Gardner

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> what is the means of propulsion when "gliding"?

Ever ridden a bicycle downhill? And no, it's not a perpetual
motion scheme. One design I know of uses the pressure and
temperature difference between the surface & the deep to pro-
duce a phase, hence volumetric, change in a substance to con-
trol buoyancy.

This has already been done, more than once. I'd look around a bit
before writing research proposals. Better explanations than mine
are out there, too.

www-pord.ucsd.edu/~rdavis/publications/4Gliders.pdf

Which, by the way, is the 4th link on the Google reference I posted...

2010\04\16@173538 by solarwind

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On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 5:06 PM, Isaac Marino Bavaresco
<RemoveMEisaacbavarescoTakeThisOuTspamyahoo.com.br> wrote:
> The propulsion is the "buoyancy", The wing is shaped to impel the device
> forward when it is floating upwards, at a rate much higher forward than
> it is raising.
> I think the same can be done when sinking, if the "angle of attack" is
> changed.
>
> So, just flood some chamber to sink some meters, if the wing is angled
> correctly it will move forward also, then change the angle of the wing
> and pump the water out, it will move forward some more as it raises.

But the energy is gotta come from SOMEWHERE right? I mean, it takes
energy to flood/pump out the chamber, doesn't it? What is the relative
efficiency compared to a jet/propeller motor propulsion system?

2010\04\16@190815 by Isaac Marino Bavaresco

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Em 16/4/2010 18:35, solarwind escreveu:
> On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 5:06 PM, Isaac Marino Bavaresco
> <spamBeGoneisaacbavarescospamBeGonespamyahoo.com.br> wrote:
>  
>> The propulsion is the "buoyancy", The wing is shaped to impel the device
>> forward when it is floating upwards, at a rate much higher forward than
>> it is raising.
>> I think the same can be done when sinking, if the "angle of attack" is
>> changed.
>>
>> So, just flood some chamber to sink some meters, if the wing is angled
>> correctly it will move forward also, then change the angle of the wing
>> and pump the water out, it will move forward some more as it raises.
>>    
> But the energy is gotta come from SOMEWHERE right? I mean, it takes
> energy to flood/pump out the chamber, doesn't it? What is the relative
> efficiency compared to a jet/propeller motor propulsion system?
>  

There is a swimming pool toy that you hold at some depth and then
released at a certain angle. It crosses the swimming pool very quickly
as it floats upwards. In this case, the energy comes from the muscular
force.

For a self-propelled device, it would be necessary to use batteries to
pump water out (and perhaps in), charged by solar cells.


Regards,

Isaac

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2010\04\16@211237 by solarwind

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On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 7:08 PM, Isaac Marino Bavaresco
<TakeThisOuTisaacbavarescoEraseMEspamspam_OUTyahoo.com.br> wrote:
> There is a swimming pool toy that you hold at some depth and then
> released at a certain angle. It crosses the swimming pool very quickly
> as it floats upwards. In this case, the energy comes from the muscular
> force.
>
> For a self-propelled device, it would be necessary to use batteries to
> pump water out (and perhaps in), charged by solar cells.

Right. So would that be more efficient than using a water jet or
propeller driven engine? It doesn't need to go very fast, just as
efficiently as possible.

2010\04\16@212547 by Eoin Ross

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The link that was posted earlier uses energy in the waves working against the tension between the two parts



solarwind <RemoveMEx.solarwind.xspamTakeThisOuTgmail.com> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

>-

2010\04\16@213327 by BOB

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solarwind wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 7:08 PM, Isaac Marino Bavaresco
> <EraseMEisaacbavarescospamyahoo.com.br> wrote:
>  
>> There is a swimming pool toy that you hold at some depth and then
>> released at a certain angle. It crosses the swimming pool very quickly
>> as it floats upwards. In this case, the energy comes from the muscular
>> force.
>>
>> For a self-propelled device, it would be necessary to use batteries to
>> pump water out (and perhaps in), charged by solar cells.
>>    
>
> Right. So would that be more efficient than using a water jet or
> propeller driven engine? It doesn't need to go very fast, just as
> efficiently as possible.I
>  
If this is like the one we played with last year the only propulsion is
buoyancy.

We wanted to take it over to LAKE MICHIGAN and let it go from a down
rigger at 150 ' depth.  No telling if we would ever find it again.

but the release angle is important.

OLD BOB

2010\04\16@213716 by BOB

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Eoin Ross wrote:
> The link that was posted earlier uses energy in the waves working against the tension between the two parts
>
>
>
> solarwind <RemoveMEx.solarwind.xEraseMEspamEraseMEgmail.com> wrote:
>  
>
I saw an article about this using the tides and some vanes to generate
electricity.

OLD BOB

2010\04\17@121152 by Peter

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Isaac Marino Bavaresco <isaacbavaresco <at> yahoo.com.br> writes:
> Didn't they de-orbit (burned) all the Iridium satellites some time ago?

http://www.heavens-above.com/

Iridium flare predictions can be off by a few km (you may end up looking in the
wrong direction). To ensure success look 'widely' into the expected direction.

-- Peter

2010\04\18@042035 by Debbie

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--- On Sat, 17/4/10, solarwind <RemoveMEx.solarwind.xspam_OUTspamKILLspamgmail.com> wrote:

> Isaac Marino Bavaresco
> <RemoveMEisaacbavarescoTakeThisOuTspamspamyahoo.com.br>
> wrote:
> > The propulsion is the "buoyancy",


Sounds like Argo?

http://www.csiro.au/science/Ocean-Robotic-Floats.html#4

http://www.argo.ucsd.edu/

Debbie.


     

2010\04\25@134057 by John Gardner

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solo-trec.jpl.nasa.gov/SOLO-TREC/

www.newscientist.com/article/mg20627576.000-tireless-diving-robot-feeds-on-the-oceans-heat.htm

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