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'[EE] Scroll Wheel without the mouse?'
2005\04\14@184254 by Harold Hallikainen

face picon face
I have a customer that wants a scroll wheel as part of the user interface.
I could buy an encoder, try to find an appropriate knob, mount it at a
right angle to my board, and spend maybe 10 times the cost of a mouse with
a scroll wheel in it. So, where do you buy a scroll wheel WITHOUT a mouse?

Any ideas appreciate!

Thanks!

Harold


--
FCC Rules Updated Daily at http://www.hallikainen.com

2005\04\14@185638 by Jinx

face picon face
> So, where do you buy a scroll wheel WITHOUT a mouse?

Do they need the scroll wheel function for a PC - ie used as
it was intended, or is this for some other non-PC application ?
IOW, do you need the scroll wheel with the signal-generating
micro ?

What quantities ? If this were for just a few I'd try a service
centre or large (eg office) company and ask for mice that have
gone in the bin. Very often the only fault is a broken wire and
that isn't worth the time or effort to repair


2005\04\14@190432 by Bradley Ferguson

picon face
On 4/14/05, Harold Hallikainen <spam_OUTharoldTakeThisOuTspamhallikainen.com> wrote:
> I have a customer that wants a scroll wheel as part of the user interface.
> I could buy an encoder, try to find an appropriate knob, mount it at a
> right angle to my board, and spend maybe 10 times the cost of a mouse with
> a scroll wheel in it. So, where do you buy a scroll wheel WITHOUT a mouse?

You could use a mouse and just hide it behind the front panel.  I
would get quite a laugh if I took something apart and they had a mouse
in there.  Put an easter egg in the code in case anyone ever takes it
apart and tries to use the mouse.

Like the cheap oven that had the clock and timer covered with a blank
panel because it wasn't ordered with that option.

Bradley

2005\04\14@190454 by Lee Jones

flavicon
face
> I have a customer that wants a scroll wheel as part of the user interface.
> I could buy an encoder, try to find an appropriate knob, mount it at a
> right angle to my board, and spend maybe 10 times the cost of a mouse with
> a scroll wheel in it. So, where do you buy a scroll wheel WITHOUT a mouse?

The Powermate from Griffin Technology for $45.  It's a machined
aluminum knob on a round base; 1.3"/33mm tall x 2.1"/54mm diameter.
USB interface with drivers for Mac & PC.  Comes in natural aluminum
or black finish.  It's aimed as a very nice volume control (like on
high end stereo).  Besides rotation, knob has a push switch (mute).

See http://www.griffintechnology.com/products/powermate/index.php .

A friend of mine has one.  Very nice finish & feel.  He was using
it for Griffin's primary design as a music volume control.

                                               Lee Jones

2005\04\14@193157 by Harold Hallikainen

face picon face
This is not for a PC application. It will be driving a PIC. I'm looking at
reading it like a quadrature encoder (I've already used the uart on the
PIC). It's to be a production unit, so I'd like to avoid having mouse guts
in it...

Harold

--
FCC Rules Updated Daily at http://www.hallikainen.com

2005\04\14@195504 by Josh Koffman

face picon face
We spoke awhile back about using a stepper motor as an encoder. Still
more expensive than a mouse, but hey, we can't all manufacture in
Asia. Although I'm the one that brought it up on the list, I can't
take credit for the idea. Open up an ETC console and see for yourself
:) Coming up with a nice interface circuit and some PIC code has been
on my todo list for a really long time....just haven't gotten to it.
If I get my USB idea off the ground I might try the stepper/encoder
thing.

Josh
--
A common mistake that people make when trying to design something
completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete
fools.
       -Douglas Adams

On 4/14/05, Harold Hallikainen <.....haroldKILLspamspam@spam@hallikainen.com> wrote:
> This is not for a PC application. It will be driving a PIC. I'm looking at
> reading it like a quadrature encoder (I've already used the uart on the
> PIC). It's to be a production unit, so I'd like to avoid having mouse guts
> in it...

2005\04\14@195823 by Jinx

face picon face

> This is not for a PC application. It will be driving a PIC. I'm looking
> at reading it like a quadrature encoder (I've already used the uart on
> the PIC). It's to be a production unit, so I'd like to avoid having mouse
> guts in it...

But you could recycle the parts ? Although I note you say it's a
production unit. Have you approached a mouse manufacturer
for parts ?

If you break it down - slotted or holed wheel and two pairs of IR
Rx / Tx semis (+ microswitch to select). The semis and switch are
easy to get, so that leaves you with the wheel to find. Perhaps a
plastics manufacturer you can call on has something suitable. They
keep a sample of everything they make. Another possiblity is to
use not transmitted light, but reflected. A plain solid wheel with
alternate white (or shiny) / black stripes. I make speed detection
unit in the range 200 - 250Hz with 1mm stripes and that works
fine. Only 1 pair of small sweet-spot Tx / Rx (ex-mouse as it
happens) semis so it's not set up for direction but it easily could be

2005\04\15@055607 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>Like the cheap oven that had the clock and timer covered
>with a blank panel because it wasn't ordered with that option.

Or the car where you paid some hundreds of dollars to get reversing lights
on it, and the only thing that needed to be done was fit the switch to the
gearbox. All the wiring and lights were factory fitted.

2005\04\15@060004 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>This is not for a PC application. It will be driving a PIC. I'm
>looking at reading it like a quadrature encoder (I've already used
>the uart on the PIC). It's to be a production unit, so I'd like
>to avoid having mouse guts in it...

So why not use a quadrature encoder? Mount it on its side so the edge of the
wheel is poking through the panel, to get the same effect as the scroll
wheel. This way you get to specify the item exactly as it is for production.

2005\04\15@080319 by Josh Koffman

face picon face
I understood Harold's point to be that a quadrature encoder will cost
him $$$ when a mouse is available for just $.

Josh
--
A common mistake that people make when trying to design something
completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete
fools.
       -Douglas Adams

On 4/15/05, Alan B. Pearce <A.B.PearcespamKILLspamrl.ac.uk> wrote:
> So why not use a quadrature encoder? Mount it on its side so the edge of the
> wheel is poking through the panel, to get the same effect as the scroll
> wheel. This way you get to specify the item exactly as it is for production.

2005\04\15@082243 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>Are't they a legal requirement where you are?

>> Or the car where you paid some hundreds of dollars to get
> reversing lights on it,

Oh, this was about 40-45 years ago in NZ, when reversing lights were an
optional extra.

2005\04\15@082841 by olin_piclist

face picon face
Alan B. Pearce wrote:
>> Like the cheap oven that had the clock and timer covered
>> with a blank panel because it wasn't ordered with that option.
>
> Or the car where you paid some hundreds of dollars to get reversing
> lights on it, and the only thing that needed to be done was fit the
> switch to the gearbox. All the wiring and lights were factory fitted.

There was a real case with a computer (Data General if I remember right) in
the early 1980s where when you ordered a memory upgrade the technician came
out and snipped a jumper.


*****************************************************************
Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts
(978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com

2005\04\15@083815 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> I understood Harold's point to be that a quadrature encoder will cost
> him $$$ when a mouse is available for just $.

<shameless plug>

$1.20 : http://www.voti.nl/shop/p/M-SW-ROT.html

</shameless plug>

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2005\04\15@102618 by jrem

picon face
or mouser part no 688-EC12E24204A9   less than $1.50 in units of one .
. .


--- Wouter van Ooijen <.....wouterKILLspamspam.....voti.nl> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> --

2005\04\15@103921 by Bob Ammerman

picon face
I used to work for Data General (the minicomputer manufacturer highlighted
in Tracy Kidder's book "Soul of  a New Machine"). They built a series of
32-bit superminis called the MV/nnnnn.

One such computer they built was the MV/15000. You could get it in three
different 'models' differing in performance by a factor of 2 or so for each
step. If you upgraded the slower model to one of the faster ones ($$$) all
you got was a new microcode tape with more efficient microcode on it. The
rumor was that the slower models had nop instructions deliberately added to
their microcode!

Bob Ammerman
RAm Systems


2005\04\15@113456 by Tony Smith

picon face
> Alan B. Pearce wrote:
> >> Like the cheap oven that had the clock and timer covered
> >> with a blank panel because it wasn't ordered with that option.
> >
> > Or the car where you paid some hundreds of dollars to get reversing
> > lights on it, and the only thing that needed to be done was fit the
> > switch to the gearbox. All the wiring and lights were factory fitted.
>
> There was a real case with a computer (Data General if I remember
> right) in
> the early 1980s where when you ordered a memory upgrade the
> technician came
> out and snipped a jumper.


Still happens, but the flip a bit in an EEPROM now.  Happened to a company I
as at a few years ago, the $$$$$ upgrade to double the units speed*
consisted of an EEPOM swap.  We contemplated comparing them to find the
exact bit.

And didn't Dell ships PC's ordered without a CD-ROM by just unplugging the
cable?

Tony


* Speed went from 32 to 64 instructions per second!  Like the PIC, you can
time programs by counting the instructions.  Jumps were 1 instruction.  On
the bright side, a file copy was as fast as multiplication which was as fast
as addition.  The cynical may view that statement in reverse.  This was
Interactive Voice Response (IVR) gear.

2005\04\15@113942 by Harold Hallikainen

face picon face
Thanks for all the suggestions thus far! What I'd REALLY like to see is a
board mount encoder that has a wheel sticking up vertically from it. I can
then just put the board behind the front panel and have a portion of the
wheel stick out through the panel. I haven't seen anything like this yet.
There are "vertical mount" encoders where the shaft ends up parallel to
the board. I could put a knob on this and have the edge of the knob stick
up through the panel. However, this is only supported at one end of the
shaft (where the encoder is), and I suspect users will push on the knob
and break the encoder off the board. I could do a metal bracket to stiffen
up the mounting of the encoder, but that seems a bit round about.

Of course the encoder companies are thinking the same thing I think about
many of our customers: "Why can't they just order what we make?"

Harold

--
FCC Rules Updated Daily at http://www.hallikainen.com

2005\04\15@115845 by Josh Koffman

face picon face
Oh, well if that's all you want, check out ECW1JB24BC0024-ND from
Digikey. We use them in one of our products. Seems to work ok...the
price on the website seems higher than what I remember, but my memory
might be faulty. The one problem we found with the cheaper mechanical
encoders is that if there is any side pressure on the shaft, you will
get erratic outputs as the connections aren't always made. This could
be as simple as a large metal wheel, then a user spinning it from
around the edge. We solved the problem by doing some software
filtering of what we're reading, but I'm still not happy about it.

Josh
--
A common mistake that people make when trying to design something
completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete
fools.
       -Douglas Adams

On 4/15/05, Harold Hallikainen <EraseMEharoldspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuThallikainen.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2005\04\15@120243 by Rob Young

picon face
Haven't kept on the thread but have you looked at these switches from ITT
/Cannon?  I'm posting the Mouser catalog link, it came up quicker than
screwing around with the ITT web pages.

http://www.mouser.com/catalog/621/1005.pdf

Bottom of the page, "Navigation Switches".  Not scroll wheels but might be
usefull.

Rob Young

2005\04\15@123222 by Tony Smith

picon face
> Thanks for all the suggestions thus far! What I'd REALLY like to see is a
> board mount encoder that has a wheel sticking up vertically from it.


I don't think such a product exists.  You could try ALPS, they make all
sorts of weird & wonderful encoders.

I pulled apart 2 mice to see how they did it, since I've realised I've only
see wheels, well, on wheel mice!

The older MS mouse used an encoder as you describe, mounted 90 degrees to
the wheel. The shaft of the encoder becomes the axle for the wheel.  It is
supported on both sides to prevent breakage.  The encoder body is about 10mm
square, the wheel about 23mm.

The newer Logitech mouse used a technique like the old ball mice did - a
slotted disk with infrared Tx & Rx on either side.  In this case the middle
of the wheel has slots in it, much like a vehicle wheel with spokes.
Cheaper than the encoder, I guess.

For homebrew, I'd go with method 1.

Tony

2005\04\15@124806 by Harold Hallikainen

face picon face
Thanks for the comment! In this application, a front panel pot would do
just fine, but the customer wants a sexy "infinity wheel" that he can spin
and watch the numbers go by on a display. So... still looking for scroll
wheels. May end up with encoder at right angle.

Thanks!

Harold

{Quote hidden}

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FCC Rules Updated Daily at http://www.hallikainen.com

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