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'[EE] Salary vs hourly pay'
2007\10\11@181346 by Vitaliy

flavicon
face
I noticed that most technical people work on a salary basis. Can someone
explain to me why that is?

Most of our employees (including the technical types) get paid hourly
(overtime is x1.5).

A question to the engineers out there: which one would you prefer, and why?

2007\10\11@184404 by Mark Rages

face picon face
On 10/11/07, Vitaliy <spam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTspammaksimov.org> wrote:
> I noticed that most technical people work on a salary basis. Can someone
> explain to me why that is?
>
> Most of our employees (including the technical types) get paid hourly
> (overtime is x1.5).
>
> A question to the engineers out there: which one would you prefer, and why?

I think any meaning ful comparison must assume the pay scales are
adjusted to the same take-home pay, since it is determined by market
forces.  Otherwise, the discussion becomes a boring discussion of
which way enriches me more.

I prefer salary because
1) there is less accounting, and
2) I can come and go more freely. My alarm clock stays off.
3) it seems to affect the attitude towards the work.   The salary
tells me to focus on the success of the project, rather than the
amount of work I am doing.  This coincides with how I like to work.
Intrinsic motivation beats external every time.

For rote or repetitive work, I think hourly makes more sense.

Regards,
Mark
markrages@gmail
--
Mark Rages, Engineer
Midwest Telecine LLC
.....markragesKILLspamspam@spam@midwesttelecine.com

2007\10\11@190652 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
Vitaliy wrote:

> I noticed that most technical people work on a salary basis. Can someone
> explain to me why that is?

I think it's this way because it makes it easier for the companies to
budget. Most qualified techies are in the category where you don't have a
right to overpay; you are expected to work as much as the job takes, and
get your fixed salary for that. (I forgot the name for this type of
employees; it is a legal concept, I think.)

> Most of our employees (including the technical types) get paid hourly
> (overtime is x1.5).
>
> A question to the engineers out there: which one would you prefer, and
> why?

I prefer either hourly or per project, but I almost never worked in a
salary type situation.

Gerhard

2007\10\11@192034 by Herbert Graf

flavicon
face
On Thu, 2007-10-11 at 15:11 -0700, Vitaliy wrote:
> I noticed that most technical people work on a salary basis. Can someone
> explain to me why that is?
>
> Most of our employees (including the technical types) get paid hourly
> (overtime is x1.5).
>
> A question to the engineers out there: which one would you prefer, and why?

I get paid on a salary basis.

Which do I prefer? Well, hourly would probably get me more money, but it
would also be alot more work for me to keep track of it, plus the "how
long was your lunch today" bullcrap would start.

I prefer salary. It does put it on me to ensure the company isn't taking
advantage of me, but the flexibility is well worth it. If I need to come
in late or leave early it's no big deal, there's no "balancing a time
sheet" needed.

In cases where I've put in major extra hours (i.e. coming in on a
weekend, or on a vacation day for a few hours for something extremely
critical) my boss has always offered me a morning/afternoon/day off
whenever I want to compensate.

Again, while salary probably means less money in my pocket, the lack of
stress about coming in 1 hour later because of a doctors appointment
makes it by far worth while.

TTYL



2007\10\11@192624 by Carl Denk

flavicon
face
Salary takes several forms, basically one is paid on an annual lump sum
that is broken back to an hourly, weekly, or monthly amount that your
actual pay check is calculated. There is paid vacation, sick, and maybe
personal time included  that is non-on the job time.  Overtime may or
may not be paid for hours worked over 8 in a day, or 40 in a week. There
may be compensating time off for overtime instead of pay.  The overtime
will generally be  @ 1.5 times normal rate, but again varies.

While I was working as a salaried (as opposed to hourly union member)
engineer, for one of the big auto manufacturers my salary was based on
an annual lump sum divided by 2080 hours in a usual year of 52 weeks and
40 hours/week. That was base salary. Overtime was 1.5 times for over 40
hours/week or 8 hours/day, except Sunday and holidays were double time.
If it was a holiday I got paid for that, and if worked, it totaled
triple time. Then there was shift differential. For start (I forget the
exact hours), but start between 6:00 am and 2:00 pm was straight time,
between 2:00pm and 10:00 pm was 5% bonus, and between 10:00 pm and 6:00
am start was 10% bonus. Usually I worked days, but occasionally to meet
a contractor, we might move our start up to catch the 10% time. :)

Vitaliy wrote:
> I noticed that most technical people work on a salary basis. Can someone
> explain to me why that is?
>
> Most of our employees (including the technical types) get paid hourly
> (overtime is x1.5).
>
> A question to the engineers out there: which one would you prefer, and why?
>
>  

2007\10\11@194407 by Timothy J. Weber

face picon face
Vitaliy wrote:
> I noticed that most technical people work on a salary basis. Can someone
> explain to me why that is?
>
> Most of our employees (including the technical types) get paid hourly
> (overtime is x1.5).
>
> A question to the engineers out there: which one would you prefer, and why?

I prefer salary when it makes more money, given the expected hours per
week.  :)

But salary also often comes with additional benefits, tangible (stock
purchase programs, e.g.) and intangible status (contractors and
technical assistants are paid hourly, but Computer Scientist and Senior
Computer Scientist are salaried).

Plus what Herbert said.
--
Timothy J. Weber
http://timothyweber.org

2007\10\11@195630 by Nate Duehr

face
flavicon
face

On Oct 11, 2007, at 4:11 PM, Vitaliy wrote:

> I noticed that most technical people work on a salary basis. Can  
> someone
> explain to me why that is?

Don't know for sure, but there have been a number of high-profile  
lawsuits against large companies in the U.S. lately about this.  The  
Federal labor laws only allow employees to be salaried who meet  
certain requirements, and while the exact wording of the law doesn't  
come to mind at the moment -- the latest lawsuits (they're winning)  
seem to be related to the rules that state the employee must be in a  
autonomous decision-making type of role.

Typically "techies" *used* to have that type of job, when the techies  
were building the infrastructure and the bosses were just staying out  
of the way -- but with companies doing more standardizing and  
proceduralization of their IT and support departments, techies are  
somewhat commoditized now -- and not making major design decisions.

Thus the lawsuits, since the techies are in many cases no longer  
meeting the requirements of salaried positions under U.S. Federal  
labor laws.

(The next major step in that process if it were to continue the  
historically repetitive paths laid during the Industrial Revolution  
would be that we'll start to see both licensure and unionization of  
IT.  But I don't think techies will take as easily to that as so-
called "blue-collar" folks did.  They're not as "exploited" and have  
livable salaries and good benefits.  The fact that there's a lawsuit  
backlash right now at all, is a sign that there's some things about  
"IT work" that aren't so wonderful, though.  Re: Dilbert.)

> Most of our employees (including the technical types) get paid hourly
> (overtime is x1.5).

Sounds reasonable.

> A question to the engineers out there: which one would you prefer,  
> and why?

I've done both, and neither is bad -- if you have a good direct  
manager who "gets" that sysadmin/technical support positions end up  
having some really strange hours sometimes, and that the amount and  
difficulty of the work goes up and down in relation to how bad the  
system's problems are.

I've never been unhappy with either situation, as long as I had a  
clueful boss who didn't try to play games like, "I'm sorry you were  
called all night long about problems and/or paged by the systems, but  
you still have to be here at X O'Clock sharp the next morning."

So to summarize: Most people can work with either salary or hourly  
wages, without difficulty, if they're not working for bad bosses.  
The phrase "You manage things and you lead people, not the other way  
around." is the best way to explain this.

--
Nate Duehr
natespamKILLspamnatetech.com



2007\10\11@204013 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On 10/12/07, Vitaliy <.....spamKILLspamspam.....maksimov.org> wrote:
> I noticed that most technical people work on a salary basis. Can
> someone explain to me why that is?
>
> Most of our employees (including the technical types) get paid
> hourly (overtime is x1.5).
>
> A question to the engineers out there: which one would you
> prefer, and why?

Here in Singapore, most engineers on a permanent basis get paid
on a salary basis. Only temp works get paid on hourly basis.
Overtime is typically 1.5 times and weekend/holiday pay is double.
However engineers (or executives) do not get overtime pay in
many cases. Many needs to do overtime without pay since it is a
norm. Last time I saw a survey saying that typically people need
to work more than 20% higher than the paid hours (typically
40/42/44 hours here).

Same thing happens in China. It is said that engineers in Japan/korea
need to work even longer time but they get better benefits than in
Singapore.

Therefore many talented studnets in Singapore now do not want to
study engineering. So the government has to promote engineering
study as it is vital to Singapore economy.

The following might be interesting to see how engineering is
perceived in Singapore.
http://www.moe.gov.sg/speeches/2004/sp20041101.htm

"First is the perception that engineering is losing its relevance
as a career. "

"A second perception is that engineering jobs involve a lot of
hard work and is more demanding physically."

"A third perception that has little basis is that engineering is a
narrow area of study that limits one's career prospects."


Xiaofan

2007\10\11@222340 by Piclist

flavicon
face
>I get paid on a salary basis.
>
>Which do I prefer? Well, hourly would probably get me more money, but
it
>would also be alot more work for me to keep track of it, plus the "how
>long was your lunch today" bullcrap would start.
>
>I prefer salary. It does put it on me to ensure the company isn't
taking
>advantage of me, but the flexibility is well worth it. If I need to
come
{Quote hidden}

Ditto, word for word.


2007\10\11@222824 by Piclist

flavicon
face
>I've never been unhappy with either situation, as long as I had a  
>clueful boss who didn't try to play games like, "I'm sorry you were  
>called all night long about problems and/or paged by the systems, but  
>you still have to be here at X O'Clock sharp the next morning."

That's how it used to be when I worked at Evergreen Investments in
Boston.  That job lasted only a year and a half, one year longer than I
wanted to be there.  They justify the slave driving with the big bucks
they pay and the awesome benefits they give you, neither of which end up
being worth anything since you never have free time to make use of
either.

That job also made me realized that even though the investment return is
low (nothing), my money is safer under my mattress.

-Mario


2007\10\12@043820 by Vitaliy

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face
piclist@mmendes.com wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Xiaofan mentioned that at his company, salaried engineers are expected to
work overtime. I'm curious, how often do you guys find yourselves working
overtime? And what is the average number of hours that you put in, over 40?

In your employment contract, does it say something to the effect that you're
expected to work X number of hours per week?

I've been essentially a salaried employee for the past five years (since the
company was founded). For the first three years or so, my normal workweek
was between 45 and 60 hours (the average was around 50). It's a little bit
more reasonable now, although not quite exactly 40, and consistently more
than the hourlies. :)  And of course, I still work late whenever a project
starts falling behind.

Besides not having to keep track of the hours, and not having to stress out
about coming in late, do you see any other advantages (from your POV) to
salary vs hourly?

Most of the employees at our company (including the techies) are paid
hourly, but nobody ever has to stress out about being an hour (or even more)
late -- as long as the work gets done. I can't remember a single time that a
request for time off was denied. And we have a simple punch in/punch out
system that keeps track of the hours.

Vitaliy

2007\10\12@051531 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On 10/12/07, Vitaliy <EraseMEspamspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTmaksimov.org> wrote:

> Xiaofan mentioned that at his company, salaried engineers are expected to
> work overtime. I'm curious, how often do you guys find yourselves working
> overtime? And what is the average number of hours that you put in, over 40?

Actually I mentioned the normal situation in Singapore. But personally
I do not like to work over time. I was working for a Germany company and
typically you do not do overtime in European companies. Now I still do
not do much OT unless absolute necessary. The US counterpart
(engineers) normally do not do OT.

> In your employment contract, does it say something to the effect that you're
> expected to work X number of hours per week?

40 hours or 44 hours here in Singapore. However many engineers are
expected to work around 50 housr per week or more. Some are expected
to work in the weekend when the projects schedule are thight and the
projects are always tight. I am kind of lucky so far.

> I've been essentially a salaried employee for the past five years (since the
> company was founded). For the first three years or so, my normal workweek
> was between 45 and 60 hours (the average was around 50). It's a little bit
> more reasonable now, although not quite exactly 40, and consistently more
> than the hourlies. :)  And of course, I still work late whenever a project
> starts falling behind.

45 is ok. 60 is too long. The hotel manager in Cleveland I stayed often works
around 60 hours per week. Too much for me. I hear some friends in US
(IT consultants) spent 60+ hours per week. I would not want to do that no
matter the pay. Those work as engineers are better in general. Those work
in California typically work longer hours than in the other part of US.

> Besides not having to keep track of the hours, and not having to stress out
> about coming in late, do you see any other advantages (from your POV) to
> salary vs hourly?

Maybe this does not apply to US. Only contract worker or temporary
worker are paid hourly here.

> Most of the employees at our company (including the techies) are paid
> hourly, but nobody ever has to stress out about being an hour (or even more)
> late -- as long as the work gets done. I can't remember a single time that a
> request for time off was denied. And we have a simple punch in/punch out
> system that keeps track of the hours.
>

Typically people might not not feel that good if need to punch-in/punch-out.
But in your case, the hours are paid. So that is okay. In my previous job,
the extra hours are not paid but you got your salary deducted for late time
or short time per minute. They do not do that in Germany but they are
quickly to adapt to the local HR norm. ;-(

In the new job, we do not need to punch-in/punch-out so I feel better
in this aspect.

Xiaofan

2007\10\12@085551 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>as long as I had a clueful boss who didn't try to play games
>like, "I'm sorry you were called all night long about problems
>and/or paged by the systems, but you still have to be here
>at X O'Clock sharp the next morning."

Had a boss (actually I think it was his boss, the CEO, who was the end
reason I left) who did this to us on callout jobs. If we had a long callout
that went after midnight we were expected to be by lunchtime next day,
otherwise by normal office start. If we did delay coming in, we were
supposed to fill out a form detailing why. I never did do that, despite
having some long callouts. They seemed to think we were slinging the lead on
callouts.

They also went through a loop of having the callout engineers on a fixed
amount per week, callout or no callout.

I think the final straw that broke the camels back was when they wanted us
to do after hours installs without any recompense, because we were salaried.
Our engineering manager got told in no uncertain terms that as he was a
shareholder in the company and would benefit from the sale of such installs
he could do the install, we were not interested.

2007\10\12@093130 by M. Adam Davis

face picon face
>From the employer's perspective it's cost control (they pay less than
hourly wages would over a year, and it's a fixed cost)

>From the employee's perspective it's security (knowing you're going to
get a paycheck on a regular basis)

So for many employers and employees it's a good fit for their values.

Further, we have a cultural inertia in the US that values steady
salaried employment over hourly labor.  Mortgages, family, etc all
'require' steady income.

In theory, a salaried employee never clocks out, and the product or
output of the salaried employee is primarily a result of thought
(analysis, synthesis, design) rather than physical labor.

Mental labor cannot be measured in terms of time - I can't discard a
good thought about a project just because I had it at home.  I'm
expected to bring that back to work and implement it.

A salaried employee, then, is being paid for all relevant thought
generated during the period of employement, and you can see a rich
case history of people being sued by their employer for using some of
their mental capabilities for outside jobs.  That's being toned down
in the US, but it's generally accepted that a salaried employee works
only one job.  An hourly employee is only paid for the time they are
physically at work.  Outside work, as long as there's no conflict of
interest, is of no concern to the hourly employer.  Thus, consulting.

-Adam

On 10/11/07, Vitaliy <spamspamspam_OUTmaksimov.org> wrote:
> I noticed that most technical people work on a salary basis. Can someone
> explain to me why that is?
>
> Most of our employees (including the technical types) get paid hourly
> (overtime is x1.5).
>
> A question to the engineers out there: which one would you prefer, and why?
>
> -

2007\10\12@103402 by Herbert Graf

flavicon
face
On Fri, 2007-10-12 at 01:36 -0700, Vitaliy wrote:
> Xiaofan mentioned that at his company, salaried engineers are expected to
> work overtime. I'm curious, how often do you guys find yourselves working
> overtime?

Rarely. I'd say that perhaps once a month I stay a couple hours late.

Perhaps once or twice a year something really critical comes up that
either means staying late on consecutive days, or even coming in on a
weekend. Again though, instead of being paid overtime, we just get time
off.

I will add that there have been times I've worked some hours from home,
and I do regularly check my email during off periods, but that isn't
really requested of me, I just don't mind doing it.

> And what is the average number of hours that you put in, over 40?
> In your employment contract, does it say something to the effect that you're
> expected to work X number of hours per week?

Officially I'm expected to work 37.5 hours a week. On average, I
maintain that figure. Some weeks do exceed that figure, but it always
balances out in the end.

> Besides not having to keep track of the hours, and not having to stress out
> about coming in late, do you see any other advantages (from your POV) to
> salary vs hourly?

The "keep track of the hours" is annoying, and certainly would be my
number one reason (I still remember waiting at a punch clock for a
minute or two with a large group of people just to get that extra 15
minute chunk of pay, I felt like I was a slave to that punch clock).

Which leads to: I suppose another major benefit of salary is the
freedom. It's not that the company doesn't care how many hours I work,
it's the knowledge that they aren't tracking it with a microscope that
really appeals. I feel free, I feel the company trusts me that little
bit more, and as a result I feel I'm more inclined to do the "extra
mile" when I feel it's necessary.

When paid hourly there's always that "I'll only do this if the company
pays me overtime" factor (an attitude, I'm sure you've seen it). I KNOW
they WILL pay me the overtime, but it's always like a knife hanging over
my head. I know it's all in my mind, but it's the freedom and implied
trust that really is appealing.

It's the same as my internet connection. I pay slightly more for an
internet connection that has no bandwidth limit. I could save a few
bucks a month if I got a service with a bandwidth limit. The bandwidth
limit would be so high that I'd never hit it, but still I pay the extra
few bucks a month. Why? The freedom. Even though I'd likely never hit
the limit that knife over my head would always be there, I'd always
worry about it, even though I don't really need to. Paying a little for
piece of mind is worth it to me.

As a minor addendum to this, I've observed that salary often produces a
"I don't care how many hours you work, as long as your job gets done"
attitude. I like that aspect as well.

TTYL

2007\10\12@104943 by alan smith

picon face
Interesting....and someone just told me yesterday that EE's were near the top in salary for new grads....around 55K starting.  Man...if that was my starting way back in the day  :-)

Xiaofan Chen <@spam@xiaofancKILLspamspamgmail.com> wrote: On 10/12/07, Vitaliy  wrote:
> I noticed that most technical people work on a salary basis. Can
> someone explain to me why that is?
>
> Most of our employees (including the technical types) get paid
> hourly (overtime is x1.5).
>
> A question to the engineers out there: which one would you
> prefer, and why?

Here in Singapore, most engineers on a permanent basis get paid
on a salary basis. Only temp works get paid on hourly basis.
Overtime is typically 1.5 times and weekend/holiday pay is double.
However engineers (or executives) do not get overtime pay in
many cases. Many needs to do overtime without pay since it is a
norm. Last time I saw a survey saying that typically people need
to work more than 20% higher than the paid hours (typically
40/42/44 hours here).

Same thing happens in China. It is said that engineers in Japan/korea
need to work even longer time but they get better benefits than in
Singapore.

Therefore many talented studnets in Singapore now do not want to
study engineering. So the government has to promote engineering
study as it is vital to Singapore economy.

The following might be interesting to see how engineering is
perceived in Singapore.
http://www.moe.gov.sg/speeches/2004/sp20041101.htm

"First is the perception that engineering is losing its relevance
as a career. "

"A second perception is that engineering jobs involve a lot of
hard work and is more demanding physically."

"A third perception that has little basis is that engineering is a
narrow area of study that limits one's career prospects."


Xiaofan

2007\10\12@113307 by Richard Pytelewski

picon face
The salaried versus hourly issue goes way past basic pay and hours worked.  Generally, hourly employees are paid less per hour, have fewer benefits, and their fringe benefits (i.e., flex hours, stock options, vacation time, sometimes medical/dental benefits) are on different plans from salaried employees.  When one looks at the compensation package, one must look at the entire spectrum of each for fair comparison.  Pay (salary) is but one component of income and the long-term benefit (i.e., pre-ipo stock, or stock grants) needs to be part of the consideration.

Rich



{Quote hidden}

> -

2007\10\12@114219 by Richard Pytelewski

picon face
These lawsuits are by companies that are claiming some hourly-type employees are salaried, i.e., "exempt" employees which abuses lower grade, lower paid employees to work OT and not get paid for it.  The cut as to the decision as to hourly versus salaried (exempt) employees is usually besed on technical training or specialization, or a "management" role.  

Rich



{Quote hidden}

> -

2007\10\12@120133 by Peter Todd

picon face
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Hash: SHA1

On Thu, Oct 11, 2007 at 03:11:58PM -0700, Vitaliy wrote:
> I noticed that most technical people work on a salary basis. Can someone
> explain to me why that is?
>
> Most of our employees (including the technical types) get paid hourly
> (overtime is x1.5).
>
> A question to the engineers out there: which one would you prefer, and why?

I've done/do a lot of consulting by the hour as well as saleried
positions. Of course, my experience is a little atypical, as these are
saleried positions paying as little as $10/hour at times. Right now I
have a "saleried" job where they just pay me for 20 hours of work a week
and I get stuff done, no actual tracking of hours. I probably work less
than that, depending on how you define it.

Hard to say which I perfer. I think it comes down to whether the job is
"research" or "hard work" For the latter, like jobs I've had cleaning
toilets and insulating houses, it's easy to keep track of hours and
justify them. For the former, sometimes I don't think I could figure out
where one job stops and my other work starts if I tried. I have very
erratic schedules as well, essentially I work from when I wake up till
when I go to bed, with breaks of various sizes in between. Who do I bill
reading a nifty new slashdot story tangentially related to work? What
about the dozens of little side projects? Especially given that stuff
like that is really why I get hired in the first place. Maybe it's just
my sense of honesty and good accounting that's bothering me, but really,
I'd much rather know I'm getting $x per week to work on y, if if I
don't get enough done, $x might decrease without some good excuses. Keep
it all vague right from the start.

The third option is fixed price contracts mind you. But I know from
experience I'm absolutely terrible at predicting how long stuff will
take, especially if I've never done it before, heck, often the tasks I
get are for things that have never *been* done before as far as I can
tell.

When it comes to chosing between research and work, I'll take the former
anytime. My favourite form of procrastination is to read wikipedia and
other information sources. My second favourite is to play with new
technology. Enough said...


Put another way if I get my assigned tasks done early, I still get paid.
In theory that happens...

My brother once had a job that was essentially data entry and formatting
text, typical boring stuff given to interns. They reckoned it'd take him
the whole summer to get the job done, took him three weeks after he
figured out a bunch of Word macro's and what not to automate the task
and speed it up multiple times over. Unfortunately, they fired him after
the fourth week because they really didn't have any more work for him to
do. He was being paid by the hour.

- --
http://petertodd.org
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2007\10\12@153225 by peter green

flavicon
face

> That job also made me realized that even though the investment return is
> low (nothing), my money is safer under my mattress.
>
>  
I was under the impression that at least in the UK and the USA ordinary
savings accounts with banks had governement protection. Sure if the
entire economy collapses you lose everything but the same applies to
cash under the mattress.


2007\10\12@155830 by Joshua Shriver

picon face
Because paying 1 1/2 pay for OT is too expensive, and bosses love to
give techies 60-80 hour work weeks at 40hr pay.



On 10/11/07, Vitaliy <EraseMEspamspammaksimov.org> wrote:
> I noticed that most technical people work on a salary basis. Can someone
> explain to me why that is?
>
> Most of our employees (including the technical types) get paid hourly
> (overtime is x1.5).
>
> A question to the engineers out there: which one would you prefer, and why?
>
> -

2007\10\12@160755 by Timothy J. Weber

face picon face
Peter Todd wrote:
> The third option is fixed price contracts mind you. But I know from
> experience I'm absolutely terrible at predicting how long stuff will
> take, especially if I've never done it before, heck, often the tasks I
> get are for things that have never *been* done before as far as I can
> tell.

This observations leads to Putt's Law: When a technological project
fails, it is impossible to tell whether it was because of incompetence
or because the goals were unattainable.

First corollary: It is better (for your career) to be part of a
spectacular failure than an invisible success.
--
Timothy J. Weber
http://timothyweber.org

2007\10\12@181823 by Richard Pytelewski

picon face
Its a free country quit



{Quote hidden}

> > --

2007\10\12@194637 by Xiaofan Chen

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On 10/13/07, Joshua Shriver <EraseMEjshriverspamspamspamBeGonegmail.com> wrote:
> Because paying 1 1/2 pay for OT is too expensive, and bosses love to
> give techies 60-80 hour work weeks at 40hr pay.
>

Good summary for situaton in many part of Asia and part of US.

Xiaofan

2007\10\12@195210 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On 10/12/07, Gerhard Fiedler <RemoveMElistsKILLspamspamconnectionbrazil.com> wrote:
> Vitaliy wrote:
>
> > I noticed that most technical people work on a salary basis. Can someone
> > explain to me why that is?
>
> I think it's this way because it makes it easier for the companies to
> budget. Most qualified techies are in the category where you don't have a
> right to overpay; you are expected to work as much as the job takes, and
> get your fixed salary for that. (I forgot the name for this type of
> employees; it is a legal concept, I think.)
>

It is called Bargainable (hourly paid, waged position, non-executive,
non-engineer, got voting rights in the union) versus Non-Bargainable
(executive position, salaried position, no voting rights in the union,
etc) here in Singapore.

I also hear something like Exempt and Non-Exempt employee.

careerplanning.about.com/od/federallawsus/g/def_exempt.htm
1. Exempt Employee
Definition: Exempt employees are those who are exempt from certain
wage and hour laws, i.e. overtime pay; usually applies to administrative,
executive, or professional employees who receive an annual salary, in
equal payments weekly, bi-weekly, or at some other specified time interval.

Also Known As: salaried employee

2. Non-exempt Employee
Definition: Non-exempt employees receive hourly wages; they are subject
to wage and hour laws, i.e. overtime pay; usually applies to
non-professional employees.

Xiaofan

2007\10\13@050302 by Joshua Shriver

picon face
>Xiaofan mentioned that at his company, salaried engineers are expected to
>work overtime. I'm curious, how often do you guys find yourselves working
>overtime? And what is the average number of hours that you put in, over 40?

I'm a programmer/system admin/networking guy who just started a new
position as the senior sys admin where I work.  It was a nice
promotion security wise, but I went from 40 hours a week to 40-80+.
Second week I put in 17 hours in 1 day and on call 24/7.

So, when it comes to being on call 24/7 being salaried sucks. Because
I might work 50 hours one week then 80+ the next and only get paid for
40.

But at least my job isn't going bye bye anytime, so I'm not
complaining. Still a roof over my head and food in the kitchen.

lol speaking of which just received an alert on my cell, gotta go back in 5:01am
on my day off

-Josh

2007\10\13@085114 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
Xiaofan Chen wrote:

> On 10/12/07, Gerhard Fiedler <listsSTOPspamspamspam_OUTconnectionbrazil.com> wrote:
>> Vitaliy wrote:
>>
>>> I noticed that most technical people work on a salary basis. Can
>>> someone explain to me why that is?
>>
>> I think it's this way because it makes it easier for the companies to
>> budget. Most qualified techies are in the category where you don't have
>> a right to overpay; you are expected to work as much as the job takes,
>> and get your fixed salary for that. (I forgot the name for this type of
>> employees; it is a legal concept, I think.)

> I also hear something like Exempt and Non-Exempt employee.
>
> http://careerplanning.about.com/od/federallawsus/g/def_exempt.htm

That was it; this is the term used in the US. I think most engineer jobs
are exempt, while tech jobs often are not.

Gerhard

2007\10\13@085510 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
Herbert Graf wrote:

> As a minor addendum to this, I've observed that salary often produces a
> "I don't care how many hours you work, as long as your job gets done"
> attitude. I like that aspect as well.

How likeable that is depends on the work situation. If there's constantly
more to do than can be done in a reasonable work week, it's nice to know
that if you work 50 or 60 h/w for a third of the weeks in the year, at
least you get it paid.

Gerhard

2007\10\14@004901 by Nate Duehr

face
flavicon
face

On Oct 11, 2007, at 4:44 PM, Mark Rages wrote:

> For rote or repetitive work, I think hourly makes more sense.

Hourly is also appropriate for direct customer support with any kind  
of "on-call" activity, if nothing else, at least during "off" hours.

Currently I'm hourly, and find that it works out better for me when  
customers call or the systems alert in the middle of the night.

-
Nate Duehr
spamBeGonenateSTOPspamspamEraseMEnatetech.com



2007\10\14@011315 by Nate Duehr

face
flavicon
face

On Oct 13, 2007, at 3:03 AM, Joshua Shriver wrote:

> lol speaking of which just received an alert on my cell, gotta go  
> back in 5:01am
> on my day off

Been right there with ya, buddy... many times.  Sysadmins are a  
different breed.  If you enjoy it, stick with it.  But work on  
getting the boss to be fair about compensating you for that extra  
time... either start an official (on paper) comp-time accountability  
or get him to pay hourly after-hours.

Not only is it the "right thing" for them to do, but it ends up  
making the manager think harder about how much staff they're  
carrying.  If your after-hours time is getting expensive, or you're  
never in because you're burning off comp-time... they know (via a  
direct cause and effect) that they need to get another sysadmin to  
help lower the amount of work.

That or they need to let you design more fail-safe (and usually  
simpler with less stupid "features") systems, and pay for the  
hardware redundancy and infrastructure that requires.

Often-times that latter argument "makes sense" anyway -- if the  
business won't run without those systems (therefore they're CRITICAL  
business systems) they shouldn't be going down in the first place.  
They should be fail-safe or at least fail-over  in their initial design.

SO many companies don't "get it" when it comes to putting core pieces  
of their business on computing technology platforms.  Sometimes the  
filing cabinet and paper actually IS a better business option than a  
buggy, crash-prone, someone-whipped-this-up-in-Microsoft Access-in-
their-basement-last-year-isn't-it-cool? database.

--
Nate Duehr
KILLspamnatespamBeGonespamnatetech.com



2007\10\14@091405 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
Nate Duehr wrote:

> Not only is it the "right thing" for them to do, but it ends up making
> the manager think harder about how much staff they're carrying.  If your
> after-hours time is getting expensive, or you're never in because you're
> burning off comp-time... they know (via a direct cause and effect) that
> they need to get another sysadmin to help lower the amount of work.

This goes for many positions, not only sysadmins. You need to know (not
only qualitatively, but also quantitatively) what you're doing and what
it's worth -- and make sure your bosses know it, too (assuming, of course,
that you're worth your money :)

Gerhard

2007\10\14@091815 by Howard Winter

face
flavicon
picon face
Herbert,

On Thu, 11 Oct 2007 19:20:28 -0400, Herbert Graf wrote:

>...
> I prefer salary. It does put it on me to ensure the company isn't taking
> advantage of me, but the flexibility is well worth it. If I need to come
> in late or leave early it's no big deal, there's no "balancing a time
> sheet" needed.

That's an interesting distinction, but not always valid!  The last firm I worked for, everyone was salaried (no overtime was paid), but we were expected to be at
our desks on time, and not to leave early unless by special arrangement for a particular occcasion.  They were sticklers for timekeeping - at one office I could get
one train and arrive at the office at 09:04, or get the train 40 minutes earlier... I had to get the earlier one!

And as we were fee-earners, timesheets were a must (they were how clients were billed) and you had to account for 7.5 hours a day, minimum.

The standing joke in the firm was that we had Flexi-time, with a core-time of 09:00 to 17:30, and no carry-over allowed!  :-)

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2007\10\15@115452 by Peter Todd

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On Fri, Oct 12, 2007 at 04:07:51PM -0400, Timothy J. Weber wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Or put another way:

If a technology project fails, and you are competent enough to know it
was due to incompetence, you obviously could have just done the project
yourself.

> First corollary: It is better (for your career) to be part of a
> spectacular failure than an invisible success.

Well, you lot know a lot more about the projects I'm trying
unsuccessfully to get working than the easy stuff. :)

- --
http://petertodd.org
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