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'[EE] Radiation sensor'
2007\08\14@173628 by David VanHorn

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I'm looking for a radiation sensor.  I know where to get GM tubes, but
I was hoping someone has a line of a solid state device.

This is just for a demo, I don't need anything specific, other than
that it be small, have TTL/Cmos compatible pulse output, and run from
5V more or less.

I have a uranium source to test with, that's mostly beta from the decay chain.
Alphas won't make it through the casing of the device.

2007\08\14@175708 by Chris Smolinski

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>I'm looking for a radiation sensor.  I know where to get GM tubes, but
>I was hoping someone has a line of a solid state device.
>
>This is just for a demo, I don't need anything specific, other than
>that it be small, have TTL/Cmos compatible pulse output, and run from
>5V more or less.
>
>I have a uranium source to test with, that's mostly beta from the decay chain.
>Alphas won't make it through the casing of the device.

Solid state detectors typically use CZT for gamma detection, and PIN
photodiodes for charged particle (alpha/beta) detection. Commercially
available units are not inexpensive.

--

---
Chris Smolinski
Black Cat Systems
http://www.blackcatsystems.com

2007\08\14@200948 by David VanHorn

picon face
> Solid state detectors typically use CZT for gamma detection, and PIN
> photodiodes for charged particle (alpha/beta) detection. Commercially
> available units are not inexpensive.

hmm.. Know where I can get one or three soon?

2007\08\14@203949 by Chris Smolinski

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face
>  > Solid state detectors typically use CZT for gamma detection, and PIN
>>  photodiodes for charged particle (alpha/beta) detection. Commercially
>>  available units are not inexpensive.
>
>hmm.. Know where I can get one or three soon?

You could try eV Products. http://www.evproducts.com/

--

---
Chris Smolinski
Black Cat Systems
http://www.blackcatsystems.com

2007\08\15@060259 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face

----- Original Message -----
From: "David VanHorn" <spam_OUTmicrobrixTakeThisOuTspamgmail.com>
To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <.....piclistKILLspamspam@spam@mit.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 1:09 AM
Subject: Re: [EE] Radiation sensor


>> Solid state detectors typically use CZT for gamma detection, and PIN
>> photodiodes for charged particle (alpha/beta) detection. Commercially
>> available units are not inexpensive.
>
> hmm.. Know where I can get one or three soon?

Dave
talk to this guy. They are supplying us one to put on an instruemnt that is
going to the moon. I don't know if they do commercial level stuff, but there
is no harm in asking. He may be able to point you to someone who can.

Bill Crain
The Aerospace Corporation
El Segundo, California
office 310-336-8530
cell 310-995-7421
fax 310-336-1636

Alan

2007\08\15@104155 by alan smith

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wonder if the homeland boys might be curious about this...well your just detecting, but...ya.  Never know who might knock on your door in the middle of the night!

"Alan B. Pearce" <A.B.PearcespamKILLspamrl.ac.uk> wrote:  
{Original Message removed}

2007\08\15@105934 by David VanHorn

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On 8/15/07, alan smith <.....micro_eng2KILLspamspam.....yahoo.com> wrote:
> wonder if the homeland boys might be curious about this...well your just detecting, but...ya.  Never know who might knock on your door in the middle of the night!

If they are curious, they should stop by our booth at ArmTech this week.
www.pittsburghlive.com/x/leadertimes/s_521364.html

2007\08\15@112740 by Brad Stockdale

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Depending on how DIY-ish you would allow it to be... Coat a piece of glass
(maybe an inch by an inch) with zinc sulfide. Put a solar cell behind it.
Wrap the whole thing in black heat shrink or some other suitable covering to
keep out stray light.

There you have it... A basic scintillation detector. Radiation hits the
target, causing the ZnS to emit light. The solar cell picks up said light and
turns it into a low voltage pulse.

I would say that most of beta radiation would be blocked by the heatshrink or
whatever. Alpha of course wouldn't come close to penetrating the covering...

Just an idea.

Brad


On Tuesday 14 August 2007 17:36, David VanHorn wrote:

> I'm looking for a radiation sensor.  I know where to get GM tubes, but
> I was hoping someone has a line of a solid state device.
>
> This is just for a demo, I don't need anything specific, other than
> that it be small, have TTL/Cmos compatible pulse output, and run from
> 5V more or less.
>
> I have a uranium source to test with, that's mostly beta from the decay
> chain. Alphas won't make it through the casing of the device.

2007\08\15@115107 by Chris Smolinski

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face
>Depending on how DIY-ish you would allow it to be... Coat a piece of glass
>(maybe an inch by an inch) with zinc sulfide. Put a solar cell behind it.
>Wrap the whole thing in black heat shrink or some other suitable covering to
>keep out stray light.
>
>There you have it... A basic scintillation detector. Radiation hits the
>target, causing the ZnS to emit light. The solar cell picks up said light and
>turns it into a low voltage pulse.

Extremely low ;-)  The preferred method would be to use a photodiode,
followed by a charge amplifier to convert the very weak current pulse
into something usable. Plus a real scintillator. The problem with
using the ZnS is that the cross section for gammas and x-rays is very
low, so you won't see them. And alphas and betas are never going to
make it to the ZnS (see below).

If you want to keep out the light, try aluminized mylar. Half mil or so.

>I would say that most of beta radiation would be blocked by the heatshrink or
>whatever. Alpha of course wouldn't come close to penetrating the covering...

Yep.

--

---
Chris Smolinski
Black Cat Systems
http://www.blackcatsystems.com

2007\08\15@151959 by David VanHorn

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On 8/15/07, Brad Stockdale <EraseMEbrad_listsspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTgreenepa.net> wrote:
> Depending on how DIY-ish you would allow it to be... Coat a piece of glass
> (maybe an inch by an inch) with zinc sulfide. Put a solar cell behind it.
> Wrap the whole thing in black heat shrink or some other suitable covering to
> keep out stray light.
>

Hmm.. I have some ZnS at home, but that's a few hundred miles away.

2007\08\16@050148 by Al Shinn

picon face
I have played with silicon pin photodetector diodes for radiation
detection (has to NOT have a window {I cut mine off} and only works in
the dark). hooked up with a transimedance amplifier - it was sensitive
to alphas only so you need a bare source like a smoke detector source
(americium) for instance, or a gas light mantel (at least they used to
be radioactive - thorium), or an OLD glow clock hand (radium and etc. -I
had one seemed to be carbon 14 - no alphas from that), or uranium
mineral, etcetc.
I don't know now where to get a bare silicon photo diode any more but
this approach would be some $1000 less then some previous pointers -
maybe < $20. Even Geiger counters can be in the $150 Or less range
www.blackcatsystems.com/GM/geiger_counter.html
Geiger Counter Nuclear Radiation Detector Alpha Beta Gamma X-Ray

Looking forward,
Al Shinn



2007\08\16@133519 by James Newtons Massmind

face picon face
> I don't know now where to get a bare silicon photo diode any
> more but this approach would be some $1000 less then some
> previous pointers - maybe < $20. Even Geiger counters can be
> in the $150 Or less range
> www.blackcatsystems.com/GM/geiger_counter.html
> Geiger Counter Nuclear Radiation Detector Alpha Beta Gamma X-Ray

Quick fun question:

How many people live downwind of a nuke power plant and do NOT own a Geiger
counter?

I'll raise my hand first.... San OH NO is just a bit north west of here. I
actually DO own a Geiger counter (only because of inheritance from my dad
who was a survival nut) but have not unpacked it or powered it up in years.
Next question:

How many people personally know someone who has worked at a nuke plant for
years, lives downwind, and has his Geiger counter (with alarm function,
power adapter and backup batteries) attached to the wall of his living room?
He says he finds the quiet, random clicking comforting. His RV is parked
just outside and always stocked with gas/food/water, etc...

Me again... He says if the generator bearings ever fry, the turbine and
generator will come off the hinges... And they are mounted and spin in a
direction that will cause them to then roll directly into the reactor. He is
something of a goober and I don't believe everything he tells me, but...


And who was it going on about people hiding their head in the sand the other
day? Hummm...


---
James.


2007\08\16@135930 by Chris Smolinski

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face
>How many people live downwind of a nuke power plant and do NOT own a Geiger
>counter?
>
>I'll raise my hand first.... San OH NO is just a bit north west of here. I
>actually DO own a Geiger counter (only because of inheritance from my dad
>who was a survival nut) but have not unpacked it or powered it up in years.
>Next question:
>
>How many people personally know someone who has worked at a nuke plant for
>years, lives downwind, and has his Geiger counter (with alarm function,
>power adapter and backup batteries) attached to the wall of his living room?
>He says he finds the quiet, random clicking comforting. His RV is parked
>just outside and always stocked with gas/food/water, etc...
>
>Me again... He says if the generator bearings ever fry, the turbine and
>generator will come off the hinges... And they are mounted and spin in a
>direction that will cause them to then roll directly into the reactor. He is
>something of a goober and I don't believe everything he tells me, but...

I'm not an ME, CE, or reactor designer, but I bet even if the above
were true, the reactor wouldn't even notice.

That said, there have been some informal networks of people who
monitor background radiation readings, sometimes because they don't
believe the public will be notified in the event of a leak. There are
others who just do it for the fun of it. I've sold several of my
detectors to such people, FWIW.

--

---
Chris Smolinski
Black Cat Systems
http://www.blackcatsystems.com

2007\08\16@141243 by David VanHorn

picon face
, etc...
>
> Me again... He says if the generator bearings ever fry, the turbine and
> generator will come off the hinges... And they are mounted and spin in a
> direction that will cause them to then roll directly into the reactor. He is
> something of a goober and I don't believe everything he tells me, but...


How about a large LNG tank located just off a VERY sharp curving exit
from the freeway, in the middle of town, very close to the university.
The vehicle barrier will not stop a determined VW bug, much less
something like a semi full of rebar.

2007\08\16@141640 by Peter Todd

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On Thu, Aug 16, 2007 at 10:35:14AM -0700, James Newtons Massmind wrote:
{Quote hidden}

As for the above scenario... I live downwind (or at least, close to)
pickering nuclear. No giger counter for me, however I have visited the
plant many years ago and remember the generators being placed
perpendicular to the line of reactor cores... That and they showed us
the insanely thick containment structure which has been shown to be able
to survive direct hits from full sized, fully fueled aircraft. And
besides, in a Candu reactor the reaction needs the heavy water
moderator to be present, should the core start to melt down, the heavy water
won't be present for long... An expensive accident for sure, (Candu's in
particular have extremely high capital costs) but not particularly
dangerous to the public.

Not me hiding my head in the sand. :)

- --
http://petertodd.org
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2007\08\16@161521 by Richard Prosser

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Al Shinn wrote -
(snipped..)
> I don't know now where to get a bare silicon photo diode any more but
> this approach would be some $1000 less then some previous pointers -
> maybe < $20. Even Geiger counters can be in the $150 Or less range
> www.blackcatsystems.com/GM/geiger_counter.html
> Geiger Counter Nuclear Radiation Detector Alpha Beta Gamma X-Ray
>
> Looking forward,
> Al Shinn
>


I used to make very basic phototransistors by cutting the top of the
can off the metal versions of the BC108/2N2222 types etc. (In general
I would then add clear epoxy for moisture protection). It may be worth
a try if you have any old metal can TO-92 bipolars lying around.

(Prior to that I had made them by scraping the paint off the old OC70
(?) Ge. bipolar parts. - but that's showing my age I think)

RP

2007\08\16@162151 by PAUL James

picon face

All,

What about trying an LED used as a detector instead of an emitter?
I've used LED's in this fashion for RED, GREEN, YELLOW, and IR.
They won't be extremely sensitive, but they work.  You could always
Use an Op Amp after them if you need a stronger signal.

This too might be worth a try.

Just a thought.


                                               Regards,

                                                 Jim  

{Original Message removed}

2007\08\19@133129 by wouter van ooijen

face picon face
> I'm looking for a radiation sensor.  I know where to get GM
> tubes, but I was hoping someone has a line of a solid state device.

IIRC a FET will leak a lot more in the presence of radiation. IIRC a big
(low RDSon) FET works better (larger area).

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu



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