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'[EE] Programming languages / complicatedGUI progra'
2007\10\10@102218 by Timothy J. Weber

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Dario Greggio wrote:
> I once had a friend using Delphi for home automation.
> Point is, when you come down to bit-level, C is *inherently* better.
> You can do that in Pascal, and of course you can have the low-level
> details in a DLL, but in the end C is more fit.

Having used C, C++ and Delphi professionally, more or less full-time,
and more or less in equal amounts for the past 20 years, I'm puzzled by
that statement.

IM(ns)HO, the weak points of the language spectrum go like this:

- Delphi: Essentially single-platform (Windows).

- C#: Ditto, plus inherently slower due to bytecode interpretation.

- C: Lacks efficient means to structure complex systems (e.g.,
inheritance, standard containers).

- C++: Very slow to compile/link.

(Note that C/C++ need to be considered alongside a portability/UI
library, like wxWidgets.)

- P* (Perl, Python, Java): Inherently slower due to interpretation.

To me, those are the issues that really matter.  If Delphi were
supported (really) on Linux and the Mac, it would be ideal: it's got
fast build time AND fast execution, trivially easy UI and DB
construction, extensive libraries (many of them open-source), and an
expressive yet readable and protective syntax (you can shoot yourself in
the foot if you really need to, but you have to work at it).

I'm starting to move to Python, though, because of the platform issue.
C++/wxWidgets is also a very strong contender, but because of C++'s
complex syntax, the compile/link stage is orders of magnitude slower,
and I find that makes a big difference in day-to-day productivity.
--
Timothy J. Weber
http://timothyweber.org

2007\10\10@122017 by Gerhard Fiedler

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Timothy J. Weber wrote:

> - C#: Ditto ["single platform"], plus inherently slower due to bytecode
> interpretation.

Isn't the Mono project bringing C# (and other .NET technologies) to Linux
(and other OSes)?

<http://www.mono-project.com/Main_Page>

Gerhard

2007\10\10@125655 by Matthew Mucker

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face
C# is not interpreted bytecode; it is JIT compiled.

There's a subtle but meaningful difference.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gerhard Fiedler" <spam_OUTlistsTakeThisOuTspamconnectionbrazil.com>
To: <.....piclistKILLspamspam@spam@mit.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 10:12 AM
Subject: Re: [EE] Programming languages / complicatedGUI programming
frameworks (was J1939)


{Quote hidden}

> --

2007\10\10@132119 by Timothy J. Weber

face picon face
> C# is not interpreted bytecode; it is JIT compiled.
>
> There's a subtle but meaningful difference.

But it's not enough to make it as fast, generally, as fully compiled
code, is it?

I mean, Java has always had JIT compilers, and it still seems
(subjectively) sluggish to me.
--
Timothy J. Weber
http://timothyweber.org

2007\10\10@140802 by Matthew Mucker

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The only way to know is to write code and test it.

There are cases out there where C# code has been found to be faster than C
code, IIRC.

After JIT, the compiled code is cached, so loops can benefit greatly and
perform as fast as compiled code, I'd imagine.

{Original Message removed}

2007\10\10@211410 by Vitaliy

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Timothy J. Weber wrote:
>> There are tons of libraries for Delphi, I wouldn't be too surprised if
>> there
>> are more component libraries for Delphi, than for VC++. IMO, there's
>> little
>> difference b/w Delphi and VC++, except that the latter is a bit closer to
>> the metal.
>
> I've heard this said before, and I don't understand it.  I've used and
> written highly optimized routines in Delphi that flip bits and access
> byte-mapped structures - and also used inline assembler where necessary.
>
> You seem to have experience with Delphi, so I don't think you're just
> repeating the rumor.  What makes VC++ seem closer to the metal to you?

I'm just repeating the rumor. My experience with Delphi is rather limited,
and VC++ experience is virtually nonexistent (beyond college coursework). At
work, my duties are mostly managerial/HR/CS in nature.

I remember reading (and hearing) that VC++ is the language of choice for
writing things like drivers, and a few examples I've seen of wrappers
written in Delphi to access WIndows routines struck me as rather awkward. I
assumed it was because C++ is more closely related to C.

Since you've used both languages extensively, your opinion definitely
overrides mine.

Vitaliy

2007\10\10@212651 by Vitaliy

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face
Timothy,

An OT question: where can one find guys like you?

Our company is having a very hard time hiring good technical people
(software developers, graphics designers, web developers), and I feel like
I'm wasting money on Monster and Careerbuilder.

A guy I met at a conference in Colorado last month, mentioned that he met
some of his current employees at professional trade shows. I've hired a good
hardware engineer this spring after I met him at a senior project fair. Is
unemployment so low, that people are no longer actively looking for work?

Please help me better spend my employment ad budget. :)

Vitaliy

2007\10\11@034144 by wouter van ooijen

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> - C++, gcc on all platforms, and wxWidgets.  What IDE?

Do you have experience in this combination? URLs of libaries,
references, books?

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu



2007\10\11@095104 by Timothy J. Weber

face picon face
Xiaofan Chen wrote:
> On 10/11/07, Vitaliy <spamspamKILLspammaksimov.org> wrote:
>
>> I remember reading (and hearing) that VC++ is the language of choice for
>> writing things like drivers, and a few examples I've seen of wrappers
>> written in Delphi to access WIndows routines struck me as rather awkward. I
>> assumed it was because C++ is more closely related to C.

The wrappers are ugly.  But that's simply a translation layer from C
(Microsoft's assigned native language for Windows) to Pascal.  Once
someone has done that translation, you write in Pascal the same as you
would in C, using the same API names, etc.

> This must be true. I've tried to read a bit of driver codes under Windows
> and Linux but they are way too complicated to me. Most of them are in
> C (not even C++) but with some OOP concept. I do not think any of the
> driver writers are using Delphi/C# to write the driver.

I would bet not C#, but Delphi would certainly be a possibility.

For OS-level stuff like this, no matter what language you're using,
you've got the same available vocabulary - the relevant system API that
you need to interface with.  And you're pretty much following whatever
recipe MS tells you to, so the logical structure of the code is going to
be pretty similar.

> Eg: I am not so sure how difficult  to write a WinUSB wrapper in Delphi.
> It is said to be much easier in C++ than in C#. Maybe Delphi will
> be similar as C# (using P/Invoke?). You see I know a lot of

I would expect the Delphi version would look just like the C version,
just with "{" changed to "begin", etc.  Really not much difference in
structure.
--
Timothy J. Weber
http://timothyweber.org

2007\10\11@193218 by Timothy J. Weber
face picon face
Mark Rages wrote:
> wxWidgets is much, much easier to learn with wxPython than with the
> C++ bindings, because of the non-trivial compile times.  Fred Brooks
> wrote a chapter about turnaround time and debugging. Still true.

Yes!!  That's what I can't bear with C++.  It really does become
non-trivial when you're working on even a moderate-sized app.

I remember when I was working on Acrobat (all [nominally] C++), a full
build would take hours.  Not including all the plug-ins.  Even a re-link
with one changed module would take... well, more than long enough to
forget what you were doing.
--
Timothy J. Weber
http://timothyweber.org

2007\10\14@171002 by Jim Korman

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Xiaofan Chen wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Looked at http://cc.codegear.com/free/delphi and it appears
that Delphi 6, 7, and 2005 are no longer available.
Looks like they're pushing the Turbo Delphi editions.

Jim

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