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'[EE] Playing with radio - which band should I use?'
2010\04\02@010447 by solarwind

picon face
Hi all,

I'm going to be using simple electronic components to design and build
radio transceivers as I attempt to learn more about radio
communications. I eventually want to try and get some long range
communication going (few km). I don't want to disturb other people's
communications or devices. Which band would be the best to experiment
on? I know that there are several unlicensed bands like the ISM bands,
FRS, and CB bands. Are there any other I can consider? I want to try
to keep the antenna length short so a 400+ MHz frequency sounds
reasonable.

2010\04\02@050043 by Russell McMahon

face picon face
> I'm going to be using simple electronic components to design and build
> radio transceivers as I attempt to learn more about radio
> communications. I eventually want to try and get some long range
> communication going (few km). I don't want to disturb other people's
> communications or devices. Which band would be the best to experiment
> on? I know that there are several unlicensed bands like the ISM bands,
> FRS, and CB bands. Are there any other I can consider? I want to try
> to keep the antenna length short so a 400+ MHz frequency sounds
> reasonable.

You are looking into a VERY large can of worms there.
Your North Am brethren can better advise you on practical aspects and
regulations north of the (northern) border, as you want to go very
carefully indeed in such areas. Radiating RF energy at even what seems
to be modest levels CAN cause loss of life worst case (not usual but
possible) and can bring the Feds or local equivalent to your door
extremely quickly. This is easily enough avoided but it's good to
start carefully. Spurious (or primary) emissions that end up on
aviation bands(biggest nono), police, military, commercial coms (a
large nono too), ... bands may bring you trouble out of all proportion
to potential gains. Spurious emissions are easy to make while you are
trying to make the one intended :-).

"Unlicenced" bands still have their regulations re power, frequency
stability, modulation type and more. And equipment may have to be
'type approved" or certified by a test house. Or not.

None of which stops you having a lot of fun - it's just good to not
run foul of the system while finding out what's involved.

Re frequency - if you are going to use commercial modules then it's
less crucial what you use. If you wanted to roll your own you'll find
that things get very arcane and black art as you rise above 30 MHz. As
you get into the 100's of MHz aerials (read antennas) get nicely short
and then as you keep going up they turn into funny hunks of metal that
do weird (read "even weirder") things 400 MHz ish is a not too bad
choice if you are using all commercial modules and you can play your
own antenna games there and learn lots.

A very advisable place to start is to look at off the shelf RX/TX
unlicensed units such as are repeatedly discussed here over time. Also
note that you can legally do very useful things with WiFi and achieve
extremely good ranges (up to line of sight) with suitable receiving
antennas. At 2.4 GHz the antennas are usually short verticals or
parabolas. You can get extremely useful gain from surplus parabolic
dishes.  Even vertical antennas are not limited to the traditional 1/4
wave whip. Longer wavelengths eg 5/8 wavelength bring some gain and
some experience in matching..

I suspect that you may be more interested at this stage in the
achievable results than getting to grips with the low level arcanery.
Maybe not. With WiFi and TCP/IP you can initially concentrate on the
coms and get a feel for what wellish behaved RF can do. Once you have
that working you can look at what it takes to roll your own or to use
simpler hardware.

            Russell
            ZL1ANC (long dormant)

2010\04\02@083354 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
solarwind wrote:
> I'm going to be using simple electronic components to design and build
> radio transceivers as I attempt to learn more about radio
> communications. I eventually want to try and get some long range
> communication going (few km).

That's a very ambitious goal.  Try to walk before you run.  A low power
transmitter that works from one side of the house to the other will be a lot
easier to build.  If it's low power enough you're also much less likely to
be noticed to those that police the various bands.  Essentially at low power
you can do what you want.  Even if it's illegal, nobody is going to know.

> I don't want to disturb other people's
> communications or devices. Which band would be the best to experiment
> on? I know that there are several unlicensed bands like the ISM bands,
> FRS, and CB bands. Are there any other I can consider? I want to try
> to keep the antenna length short so a 400+ MHz frequency sounds
> reasonable.

Again, keep the power low and nobody will notice, assming you're not next
door to a hospital or something.  There are some bands where you are allowed
a reasonable power without a license.  I sortof remember you used to be
allowed up to 5W in the CB band (27MHz) without a license, but I may have
that wrong and it was a long time ago.  I definitely remember having some
walky-talkies that were unlicensed and rated for 3/4 watt 40 years ago.

I dumped 2-3 watts at 1MHz onto the power line of the dorm in school and
didn't get into any trouble.  That was probably a combination of luck, the
fact that there was no station in the area on that frequency, that most of
the signal stayed on campus which was private property, and that it was on
for a few hours a week erratically.  I did find out later that the signal
jumped at least one major distribution transformer, but the other side was
still a RPI local feed.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.

2010\04\02@090326 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
Russell McMahon wrote:
> Spurious (or primary) emissions that end up on
> aviation bands(biggest nono), police, military, commercial coms (a
> large nono too), ... bands may bring you trouble out of all proportion
> to potential gains.

This is a good point I should have mentioned too.  Before you attempt to
transmit anything, make it your business to know what part of the spectrum
is allocated to what.  Most likely you'll end up violating some rules.  You
want to make sure you know who's band you're stepping on before you do that.
Some can have much more serious consequences than others.

As Russell mentioned, absolutely positively stay away from anything related
to aviation.  It is quite likely that even a modest transmission in that
band will be noticed, and then there will be people whos job it is to hunt
down the source.  Do it more than two or three times and they will find you.
They won't be amused or pleasant when they do.

There are installations all over North America monitoring certain bands for
a variety of purposes.  You really don't want to be a blip one one of those
screens.  These are not the people you want knocking on (or breaking down)
your door in the middle of the night.

Fortunately, the really sensitive frequencies tend to be "high", at least a
few 100 MHz but mostly in the GHz range.  Keep the power low and stick to
10s of MHz and you'll sneak under most everyone's radar.  Beware of licensed
ham bands in that range though.  There are likely more hams around you more
than you think.  Some will not take kindly to intrusions (quite rightly so),
and will spend their spare time finding you and handing you over to the
authoroties on a silver platter.

Again, look into the 27MHz CB band.  You can probably get away with your
experiments there up to maybe a watt without anyone likely caring a lot even
if what you're doing is technically illegal.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.

2010\04\02@101320 by Eoin Ross

flavicon
face
Further to this - if you stick to channels away from '19' (27.185 MHz) you'll be less likely to annoy as well.
http://www.techlib.com/reference/CB.htm

Seriously wouldn't be a bad a idea to work on your Amateur Radio Licence
http://www.arrl.org/FandES/ead/classes.html
Technician Class License. You can get an entry level Amateur Radio Technician license by passing a 35-question multiple-choice examination. No Morse code test is required. The exam covers basic regulations, operating practices, and electronics theory, with a focus on VHF and UHF applications.

Technician Class operators are authorized to use all amateur VHF and UHF frequencies (all frequencies above 50 MHZ). Technicians also may operate on the 80, 40, and 15 meter HF bands using Morse code, and on the 10 meter band using Morse code, voice, and digital modes.  No Morse code test is required.



>>> On 02 Apr 10 at 10:03:22, in message <011301cad26d$41dc5f30$0300a8c0@main>,
"Olin Lathrop" <spam_OUTolin_piclistTakeThisOuTspamembedinc.com> wrote:
<Snip>
>
> Again, look into the 27MHz CB band.  You can probably get away with your
> experiments there up to maybe a watt without anyone likely caring a lot even
> if what you're doing is technically illegal.nce 2000.


2010\04\02@101804 by Russell McMahon

face picon face
> Keep the power low and stick to
> 10s of MHz and you'll sneak under most everyone's radar.

You definitely don't want to be a blip on anyone's RADAR :-) -
conceptual or real world.

Real RADAR usually works at higher frequencies, fortunately :-)


      Russell.

2010\04\02@114406 by Michael Watterson

face picon face
solarwind wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I'm going to be using simple electronic components to design and build
> radio transceivers as I attempt to learn more about radio
> communications. I eventually want to try and get some long range
> communication going (few km). I don't want to disturb other people's
> communications or devices. Which band would be the best to experiment
> on? I know that there are several unlicensed bands like the ISM bands,
> FRS, and CB bands. Are there any other I can consider? I want to try
> to keep the antenna length short so a 400+ MHz frequency sounds
> reasonable.
>  
Hmm.. They are really "pre-licensed". Devices must meet and have CE/ETSI
approvals in Europe or FCC in USA.

Virtually EVERY country you need to have the device tested and certified
to deploy it without a licence. The only method to legally deploy an
uncertified transmitter in virtually every country is to have a full or
nearly full Amateur licence. Then many bands are available.

Licence free AKA ISM deployment is only "licence free" for a customer of
a pre-approved, marked device. not DIY free for all.

Anyway proper radio people only test Aerials on air. Transmitters are
tested with dummy loads and test gear. Which you can in theory do with
no licence if no RF is radiated.

What's the difference between a signal generator connected by coax to 50
Ohms and a Transmitter in the same circuit? None.

2010\04\02@115743 by Michael Watterson

face picon face
Olin Lathrop wrote:
>
> Again, keep the power low and nobody will notice, assming you're not next
> door to a hospital or something.  There are some bands where you are allowed
> a reasonable power without a license.  I sortof remember you used to be
> allowed up to 5W in the CB band (27MHz) without a license, but I may have
> that wrong and it was a long time ago.  I definitely remember having some
> walky-talkies that were unlicensed and rated for 3/4 watt 40 years ago.
>  
No licence for user, maybe, but you can't self build CB (27MHz) in most
countries. It has to be an approved product.

You can self build on 28MHz if you have a Amateur licence. AFAIK only
Licenced Amateurs can self  build without getting the equipment  certified.

Without a spectrum analyser, really you have no idea what frequencies a
home built transmitter might output on. I was designing 870MHz/ 920MHz
radios and an amplifier was oscillating at 4GHz to 6GHz! (We had HP141T
with 18GHz plug in). Nowadays  $2 433MHz Colpitts/ SAW based oscillator  
*might*  have a  6GHz ft  transistor. If you built it wrong the SAW
might not set the frequency.

If you want to experiment with Transmitters get a dummy load/through
sampler and a Spectrum Analyser.

If you want to experiment with Aerials and Wireless transmission, get an
Amateur licence. That's what it's for. :-) Till last year the official
Irish  title was "Wireless Experimenter".

EIFEB ex GI8JTR

2010\04\02@121911 by solarwind

picon face
On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 11:57 AM, Michael Watterson <.....mikeKILLspamspam@spam@radioway.org> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Ok, you guys sold me. I'm going to get a radio amateur's license.

2010\04\02@122920 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
Michael Watterson wrote:
> What's the difference between a signal generator connected by coax to
> 50 Ohms and a Transmitter in the same circuit?

Lots of fun in seeing your signal actually transmitted, of coures.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.

2010\04\02@123233 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
Michael Watterson wrote:
> No licence for user, maybe, but you can't self build CB (27MHz) in
> most countries. It has to be an approved product.
>
> You can self build on 28MHz if you have a Amateur licence. AFAIK only
> Licenced Amateurs can self  build without getting the equipment
> certified.

Those are the legal restrictions.  The point was more about what you can get
away with.

2010\04\02@135002 by Michael Watterson

face picon face
Olin Lathrop wrote:
> Michael Watterson wrote:
>  
>> No licence for user, maybe, but you can't self build CB (27MHz) in
>> most countries. It has to be an approved product.
>>
>> You can self build on 28MHz if you have a Amateur licence. AFAIK only
>> Licenced Amateurs can self  build without getting the equipment
>> certified.
>>    
>
> Those are the legal restrictions.  The point was more about what you can get
> away with.
>
>  
unless you have good test gear and know how to use it and a knowledge of
the local spectrum plan and users, you won't know what you can "get away
with".

A city council thought they could get away with low power 10GHz "burglar
alarm" type  movement sensors to sense people at pedestrian crossings.
It disrupted Point to Multipoint   8Mbps  broadband for  over  4,000  
users (10.2GHz downlink, 10.6Hz approx uplink).  Due to the political
influence the  compromise was to re-tune all of them to 10.450GHz and
the regulator made that a "licence free" band for Type approved
equipment. :-)   The FCC might have made them replace them all with
camera based person detectors in USA, or not :D

The local Pirate CB operators use official commercial gear, but at 146
to 148MHz as the Official Band ends at 146MHz here unlike USA.

Home built Transmitter operators without a licence tend to be short
lived, even here, as they rarely know what their transmitter is *really*
doing.



2010\04\02@202603 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 12:18 AM, solarwind <x.solarwind.xspamKILLspamgmail.com> wrote:
> Ok, you guys sold me. I'm going to get a radio amateur's license.
>

It might be fun but rather old-school. ;-) But modern geeks seem to be
more interested in lower power wireless stuff like WiFi, Zigbee, Bluetooth
or things like that. ;-) Microchip now offers good wireless stuff even
though TI (Chipcon) seems to be more popular.

Disclaim: I never really touched Wireless/RF other than working one
month tuning a receiver board for long distance cordless phone
(I believe the device violates the regulations as it will disturb the
TV receiving). It was long long time ago. In the school days, there
were groups making AM radios with discrete transistors. But
I was more interested in Maths at that time.

--
Xiaofan http://mcuee.blogspot.com

2010\04\02@213228 by solarwind

picon face
On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 8:26 PM, Xiaofan Chen <.....xiaofancKILLspamspam.....gmail.com> wrote:
> It might be fun but rather old-school. ;-) But modern geeks seem to be
> more interested in lower power wireless stuff like WiFi, Zigbee, Bluetooth
> or things like that. ;-) Microchip now offers good wireless stuff even
> though TI (Chipcon) seems to be more popular.
>
> Disclaim: I never really touched Wireless/RF other than working one
> month tuning a receiver board for long distance cordless phone
> (I believe the device violates the regulations as it will disturb the
> TV receiving). It was long long time ago. In the school days, there
> were groups making AM radios with discrete transistors. But
> I was more interested in Maths at that time.
>

Yeah, I have a bunch of CC1101 and CC1111 chips as well as a Chronos
watch kit. It's fun, but it's far more satisfying building a radio
system from scratch.

2010\04\02@223747 by YES NOPE9

flavicon
face
Sell the CC1101 , CC1111 chips and the Chronus to me then.
I don't mind being less creative than you.
Gus

{Quote hidden}

2010\04\02@224616 by solarwind

picon face
On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 10:37 PM, YES NOPE9 <yesspamspam_OUTnope9.com> wrote:
> Sell the CC1101 , CC1111 chips and the Chronus to me then.
> I don't mind being less creative than you.
> Gus

You can get the CC1101/CC1111 as free samples from Texas Instruments.
The Chronos kit can be acquired for $50 US tops. It's actually a
really cool watch on it's own. I just wish it had a dot matrix
display. I find the segment displays to be rather restrictive.

2010\04\02@225538 by Sean Breheny

face picon face
I agree with Solarwind that amateur radio is still interesting. I have
done experiments in several realms of radio and have enjoyed all of
them.

It is great to communicate across the room at a high data rate, but it
is also awesome to communicate across the world by bouncing waves off
the ionosphere!

I have kept up my amateur radio license, but I mainly use it for
experimentation (perfectly legal!) and rarely use it now to chat with
other amateurs. That can be a bit boring unless it is in pursuit of
some goal (a contest or trying to communicate with very low power,
etc.).

Amateur radio began among experimenters and in many ways I think that
is its most valuable aspect, even though it is rare these days.

Sean


On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 8:26 PM, Xiaofan Chen <@spam@xiaofancKILLspamspamgmail.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> -

2010\04\03@012648 by Vitaliy

face
flavicon
face

----- Original Message -----
From: "solarwind" <RemoveMEx.solarwind.xTakeThisOuTspamgmail.com>
To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <spamBeGonepiclistspamBeGonespammit.edu>
Sent: Friday, April 02, 2010 09:18
Subject: Re: [EE] Playing with radio - which band should I use?


On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 11:57 AM, Michael Watterson <TakeThisOuTmikeEraseMEspamspam_OUTradioway.org>
wrote:
{Quote hidden}

->Ok, you guys sold me. I'm going to get a radio amateur's license.


"Get an amateur license", "Get a Spectrum Analyser"...

Give me a break!




2010\04\03@014649 by Russell McMahon

face picon face
> "Get an amateur license",
>  "Get a Spectrum Analyser"...

A remarkably good indication re spurious output level can be obtained with
one of the el-cheapo manually tunable black & white tvs.

If you can place one of those near a radiation source and tune it over all
its bands without  any audible or visual indication that the device is
transmitting (except on its fundamental) then you quite probably have a
clean signal.

Not as good, but still useful, is to tune a portable radio aross AM and FM
bands and listen for any signals.

Sensitivity is very high when very close so you can usually manage "spuries"
when the received is ON the tx that vanish at very short distances.
Good also for devices that are not intended to be transmitters, but are.

> Give me a break!

Granted:

_____                                                                ______
    ________________________________________________________________




                     Russell



>
>
>
>
> -

2010\04\03@041126 by Michael Watterson

face picon face
Russell McMahon wrote:
>> "Get an amateur license",
>>  "Get a Spectrum Analyser"...
>>    
>
> A remarkably good indication re spurious output level can be obtained with
> one of the el-cheapo manually tunable black & white tvs.
>
> If you can place one of those near a radiation source and tune it over all
> its bands without  any audible or visual indication that the device is
> transmitting (except on its fundamental) then you quite probably have a
> clean signal.
>
> Not as good, but still useful, is to tune a portable radio aross AM and FM
> bands and listen for any signals.
>
> Sensitivity is very high when very close so you can usually manage "spuries"
> when the received is ON the tx that vanish at very short distances.
> Good also for devices that are not intended to be transmitters, but are.
>
>  
Indeed there are several designs for simple spectrum analyser for 42MHz
to 870MHz using a I2C controlled TV tuner and a PIC.

With KS0108 128 x  64 panels  now about 12 Eur,  you  can even  build a  
hand held  portable model.
10KHz to 45MHz can be added by using 25MHz or 50MHz crystal based 50MHz
L.O. Mixer to up convert to  50.01 to  95MHz
you can cover 870 MHz to 2100 MHz with a Satellite receiver Tuner I2C
controlled (old stock Comtech under  $10) and  use  the UHF tuner as  
480MHz IF  for  it.

My own spectrum Analyser is only got a 110Mhz plug in. (HP141T). I'm on
the look out for a 18GHz plug in. But meanwhile I can put an old TV
tuner with manual hand calibrated pot for tuning 85 - 300 and 410 - 880
(depending on band switch)  and  Spectrum  Analyser  set approximately  
34MHz to  40MHz.  Gives  10MHz  bandwidth on  analyser.  I  have  a  
converted MMDS  (2.5GHz)  receiver  as a front end for 2.4GHz band and
can connect LNB and other Microwave receivers for 10GHz to 12GHz.

Old VHS or TVs or analog Sat receivers are good source of free parts for
such simple projects.  You can even simply diode detect analog tuned
(0.5V to 20V often) non- I2C old tuners with X-axis sweep of scope and
feed diode to Y axis for a really  basic analyser. Sweep rate needs to
be quite slow.

There is a good reason why the old HP141T has a storage tube. However in
storage mode you can get down to less than 300Hz resolution and viewing
19KHz to 60KHz to see multiplex +  RDS is possible, with 100K Ohm to 50
Ohm opamp buffer.

I have a spare KS0108, 128x 64 and a 20x4 text and a nice box. Plus an
LMX2430 synth with 400MHz to 800MHz and 800MHz to 1600MHz VCOs. by
adding mixer and two filters that will give 10KHz to 2400MHz. I'll stick
the UV917 I2C TV tuner,  50MHz converter, and comtech 900MHz to 1700 MHz
I2C tuner in the box with batteries, keypad and the two displays to have
a cheap portable signal generator / tracking generator and spectrum
analyser. Also I have 100MHz to 3GHz noise gen I built.
So connectors for external RF bridges too are in order to measure return
loss/VSWR/Impedance of filters and aerials with tracking generator and
detectors or noise gen and spectrum analysers etc.
I have nice pair of drum attenuators from a scrapped piece of gear 1dB
and 10dB steps that are good to 1GHz and a DC switched attenuator good
for up 6GHz...


But not today. Maybe in the Autumn.


'[EE] Playing with radio - which band should I use?'
2011\08\30@215608 by RussellMc
face picon face
>From about 5 months ago ... :-)

>> If you want to experiment with Aerials and Wireless transmission, get an
>> Amateur licence. That's what it's for. :-) Till last year the official
>> Irish title was "Wireless Experimenter".

VM said:

> "Get an amateur license", "Get a Spectrum Analyser"...
> Give me a break!

Just get a licence - it IS a break.
An amateur license (in many countries) allows the average person to
legally do things with RF that would get you them in  trouble in
almost every other case.  Sounds like a "break" to me.




             Russel

2011\08\31@013637 by V G

picon face
On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 9:55 PM, RussellMc <RemoveMEapptechnzspamTakeThisOuTgmail.com> wrote:

> >From about 5 months ago ... :-)
>
> >> If you want to experiment with Aerials and Wireless transmission, get an
> >> Amateur licence. That's what it's for. :-) Till last year the official
> >> Irish title was "Wireless Experimenter".
>
> VM said:
>
> > "Get an amateur license", "Get a Spectrum Analyser"...
> > Give me a break!
>
> Just get a licence - it IS a break.
> An amateur license (in many countries) allows the average person to
> legally do things with RF that would get you them in  trouble in
> almost every other case.  Sounds like a "break" to me.


Hi! Why the sudden interest in this thread

2011\08\31@031538 by RussellMc

face picon face
>> > "Get an amateur license", "Get a Spectrum Analyser"...
>> > Give me a break!

>> Just get a licence - it IS a break.

> Hi! Why the sudden interest in this thread?

No 'sudden interest'.
I rediscovered it while searching for the TI Chronos 'watch' prior posting.
I noted that the 'give me a break' comment had not been answered and,
as it was the whole content of the response and as the value of an
amateur licence seemed under appreciated (as it is by many) it seemed
worth making a quick comment.

Seems I missed Chrono's at $US25, free shipping.
I'd have one by now if I'd seen that :-).
At $50 it's just a matter of getting around to it. At $25 the
motivation level would rise enough to make it happen. Probably.


Russell



        Russel

2011\08\31@153843 by V G

picon face
On Wed, Aug 31, 2011 at 3:14 AM, RussellMc <apptechnzEraseMEspam.....gmail.com> wrote:

> No 'sudden interest'.
> I rediscovered it while searching for the TI Chronos 'watch' prior posting.
> I noted that the 'give me a break' comment had not been answered and,
> as it was the whole content of the response and as the value of an
> amateur licence seemed under appreciated (as it is by many) it seemed
> worth making a quick comment.
>

You're right.


> Seems I missed Chrono's at $US25, free shipping.
> I'd have one by now if I'd seen that :-).
> At $50 it's just a matter of getting around to it. At $25 the
> motivation level would rise enough to make it happen. Probably.


LOL! I know what you mean. I bought the chronos watch last year. It's really
cool. You should get one


'[EE] Playing with radio - which band should I use?'
2011\09\01@141837 by John Ferrell
face
flavicon
face
Yes, get a license and stay legal! It is easier than ever, AFIK all or most countries have eliminated code requirements because of international treaties.
In the US one who follows this list can prepare for the Tech license in a couple of evenings. I am part of a Volenteer Examiner(VE)  team that does exams on the second Saturday morning of each month. The fee is $12. We are very tight on the rules, but we really want everyone to pass.

Most of my antenna experiments take place on the 2 meter band, 144mhz to 148mhz. The physical size and instrumentation needs are within easy reach.

Wire antennas for HF are best developed at full size because of the need to being so close to the ground in terms of wave lengths.

A great deal of expense & effort can be saved by doing a little modelling first. The free version of EZNEC will allow a good starting place.



On 8/30/2011 9:55 PM, RussellMc wrote:
{Quote hidden}

-- John Ferrell W8CCW
  "Until one has loved an animal,
    part of their soul remains unawakened."

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