Some notes on price quotes and the drama that are circuit boards:
Futurlec: I used to really not have a problem with Futurlec. I sent them
a board a full month ago. They sent me an email 3 weeks ago asking a
question about a feature of my board (a guard ring around a very high
impedance wire). I told them that's the way it's supposed to be. Two
weeks go by. I say "where's my board?" their response is: "Please answer
the question." so I tell them I answered it already and I send them my
response. Yesterday I send them an email "Where's my board?" their
response: "Please answer the question." so. I'm done with Futurlec.
(I know, shame on me for trying to get something cheaply)
I sent out an RFQ with my gerbers to a couple places. This board is
2.75" square, 10mils clearance/trace width/annular ring, so a pretty
generic board. All of these places do a 5 day or less turnaround if
asked. Olimex was out because of a 10 day turnaround. Quantity 5
(prototypes..)
4. Advanced Circuits $64.00 (I really wanted to buy from them but
they're just too expensive)
3. hamppcb.com $28.60
2. ourpcb.com $27.08
1. pcbnet.com $25.00
What do you mean ? They wanted to find out what is that ring for ?
Well isn't that your business and their's is to manufacture your PCB ?
This is crazy, i think there should be some regulation office you can
complain about the way they treat the customers.
> Some notes on price quotes and the drama that are circuit boards:
>
> Futurlec: I used to really not have a problem with Futurlec. I sent them
> a board a full month ago. They sent me an email 3 weeks ago asking a
> question about a feature of my board (a guard ring around a very high
> impedance wire). I told them that's the way it's supposed to be. Two
> weeks go by. I say "where's my board?" their response is: "Please answer
> the question." so I tell them I answered it already and I send them my
> response. Yesterday I send them an email "Where's my board?" their
> response: "Please answer the question." so. I'm done with Futurlec.
> (I know, shame on me for trying to get something cheaply)
>
> I sent out an RFQ with my gerbers to a couple places. This board is
> 2.75" square, 10mils clearance/trace width/annular ring, so a pretty
> generic board. All of these places do a 5 day or less turnaround if
> asked. Olimex was out because of a 10 day turnaround. Quantity 5
> (prototypes..)
>
> 4. Advanced Circuits $64.00 (I really wanted to buy from them but
> they're just too expensive)
> 3. hamppcb.com $28.60
> 2. ourpcb.com $27.08
> 1. pcbnet.com $25.00
>
> ymmv
>
> -
> Martin
> Some notes on price quotes and the drama that are circuit boards:
>
> Futurlec: I used to really not have a problem with Futurlec. I sent them
> a board a full month ago. They sent me an email 3 weeks ago asking a
> question about a feature of my board (a guard ring around a very high
> impedance wire). I told them that's the way it's supposed to be. Two
> weeks go by. I say "where's my board?" their response is: "Please answer
> the question." so I tell them I answered it already and I send them my
> response. Yesterday I send them an email "Where's my board?" their
> response: "Please answer the question." so. I'm done with Futurlec.
> (I know, shame on me for trying to get something cheaply)
>
> I sent out an RFQ with my gerbers to a couple places. This board is
> 2.75" square, 10mils clearance/trace width/annular ring, so a pretty
> generic board. All of these places do a 5 day or less turnaround if
> asked. Olimex was out because of a 10 day turnaround. Quantity 5
> (prototypes..)
>
> 4. Advanced Circuits $64.00 (I really wanted to buy from them but
> they're just too expensive)
> 3. hamppcb.com $28.60
> 2. ourpcb.com $27.08
> 1. pcbnet.com $25.00
My american experience is yelling: do not deal with any vendor,
website or whatever which have 50% lower prices than market show. They
are usualy fake, but could be ok with some miracle.
I would love a feedback from you after you've got the boards.
I presume you have experience in make differences between a
proffesional PCB board and an amateur one. It needs a few years of PCB
design.
> Some notes on price quotes and the drama that are circuit boards:
>
> Futurlec: I used to really not have a problem with Futurlec. I sent them
> a board a full month ago. They sent me an email 3 weeks ago asking a
> question about a feature of my board (a guard ring around a very high
> impedance wire). I told them that's the way it's supposed to be. Two
> weeks go by. I say "where's my board?" their response is: "Please answer
> the question." so I tell them I answered it already and I send them my
> response. Yesterday I send them an email "Where's my board?" their
> response: "Please answer the question." so. I'm done with Futurlec.
> (I know, shame on me for trying to get something cheaply)
>
> I sent out an RFQ with my gerbers to a couple places. This board is
> 2.75" square, 10mils clearance/trace width/annular ring, so a pretty
> generic board. All of these places do a 5 day or less turnaround if
> asked. Olimex was out because of a 10 day turnaround. Quantity 5
> (prototypes..)
>
> 4. Advanced Circuits $64.00 (I really wanted to buy from them but
> they're just too expensive)
> 3. hamppcb.com $28.60
> 2. ourpcb.com $27.08
> 1. pcbnet.com $25.00
>
> ymmv
>
> -
> Martin
>
>
> My american experience is yelling: do not deal with any vendor,
> website or whatever which have 50% lower prices than market show. They
> are usualy fake, but could be ok with some miracle.
> I would love a feedback from you after you've got the boards.
> I presume you have experience in make differences between a
> proffesional PCB board and an amateur one. It needs a few years of PCB
> design.
>
> thx,
> Vasile
Vasile,
I don't use any features considered state of the art. My smallest hole
size is .024", my smallest trace/clearance is .010". The smallest SMT
components are 0805, and the biggest part is a 28 lead PIC 18F2220 (SO).
Some hobbyists could make this board. If I needed embedded/micro vias,
trace widths of .004, and 8 layers, I'd use a top-notch board house.
There is no reason this board lot should cost 64*5 = $320. (4PCB lowest
charge, regardless of quantity < 10).
If I get my boards from pcbnet and they don't work I'll eat my words.
I've gotten boards from Futurlec in the past that work fine (they're the
cheapest). They're not high quality but they did work. Now they just
don't want to get the job done.
On 3/7/08, Martin <martinKILLspamnnytech.net> wrote:
> Vasile Surducan wrote:
>
> >
> > My american experience is yelling: do not deal with any vendor,
> > website or whatever which have 50% lower prices than market show. They
> > are usualy fake, but could be ok with some miracle.
> > I would love a feedback from you after you've got the boards.
> > I presume you have experience in make differences between a
> > proffesional PCB board and an amateur one. It needs a few years of PCB
> > design.
> >
> > thx,
> > Vasile
>
> Vasile,
> I don't use any features considered state of the art. My smallest hole
> size is .024", my smallest trace/clearance is .010". The smallest SMT
> components are 0805, and the biggest part is a 28 lead PIC 18F2220 (SO).
> Some hobbyists could make this board.
I could make it too with CNC in 30 minutes, I know that.
If I needed embedded/micro vias,
> trace widths of .004, and 8 layers, I'd use a top-notch board house.
> There is no reason this board lot should cost 64*5 = $320. (4PCB lowest
> charge, regardless of quantity < 10).
>
> If I get my boards from pcbnet and they don't work I'll eat my words.
> I've gotten boards from Futurlec in the past that work fine (they're the
> cheapest). They're not high quality but they did work. Now they just
> don't want to get the job done.
Please don't eat anything only for your own taste :)
With allmost all chinese sites (and a lot of american sites, those
which are selling cheap electronic stuff and have a lot of stars as
"trusted site") the problem is you can't trust them as long you don't
have a true relationship with the opposite side.
On the chinese site the language problem is the biggest one, you
think they understood you, they believe you have understood them, you
are asking a nail and they send you a hammer...
Imagine that on a PCB board transaction...
I have seen that on a $5000 transaction. Imagine the face of the buyer
after half of the components where seqestrated (read stolen) by the
dutch police in Amsterdam and no paper was sent in exchange...and the
rest where components which have never been ordered...
If you don't mind me asking, why are you using this part? I compared it to
an 18F2221, and don't see any obvious differences, except that the x21 is
twice as cheap.
> Dumitru Stama wrote:
> > This is crazy, i think there should be some regulation office you can
> > complain about the way they treat the customers.
>
> Dimitru, if you don't mind me asking,
>
> 1. Where are you from?
> 2. What's a "regulation office"?
>
>
> --
Dumitru Stama wrote:
>> 1. Where are you from?
>> 2. What's a "regulation office"?
>I am from Romania and by regulation office i mean customer protection.
> I don't mind you asking, don't worry :)
In most free market economies, the proper response to Martin's problem is
precisely what he did: take his business elsewhere, and tell as many people
as he can about the bad service he received.
Trust me, that hurt Futurlec much more than any complaint the company may
have received from the regulation office. Martin is his own "customer
protection".
:-)
Vitaliy, who was born in a socialist country whose current
president-dictator set a goal of raising the living standard to US levels by
2030.
It may be that the "=" will be with the US standard substantially lower,
maybe even lower than the present standard of that other country. ~)
Note the tent cities of Southern California that are getting increased
population, and people being evicted from their houses, and no where to go.
> Dumitru Stama wrote:
>>> 1. Where are you from?
>>> 2. What's a "regulation office"?
>> I am from Romania and by regulation office i mean customer protection.
>> I don't mind you asking, don't worry :)
>
> In most free market economies, the proper response to Martin's problem is
> precisely what he did: take his business elsewhere, and tell as many people
> as he can about the bad service he received.
>
> Trust me, that hurt Futurlec much more than any complaint the company may
> have received from the regulation office. Martin is his own "customer
> protection".
>
> :-)
>
> Vitaliy, who was born in a socialist country whose current
> president-dictator set a goal of raising the living standard to US levels by
> 2030.
>
> Martin wrote:
>
>> 28 lead PIC 18F2220 (SO).
>>
>
> If you don't mind me asking, why are you using this part? I compared it to
> an 18F2221, and don't see any obvious differences, except that the x21 is
> twice as cheap.
>
> Vitaliy
>
>
> On 3/7/08, Martin <EraseMEmartinspam_OUTTakeThisOuTnnytech.net> wrote:
>> Some notes on price quotes and the drama that are circuit boards:
>>
>> Futurlec: I used to really not have a problem with Futurlec. I sent them
>> a board a full month ago. They sent me an email 3 weeks ago asking a
>> question about a feature of my board (a guard ring around a very high
>> impedance wire). I told them that's the way it's supposed to be. Two
>> weeks go by. I say "where's my board?" their response is: "Please answer
>> the question." so I tell them I answered it already and I send them my
>> response. Yesterday I send them an email "Where's my board?" their
>> response: "Please answer the question." so. I'm done with Futurlec.
>> (I know, shame on me for trying to get something cheaply)
>>
>> I sent out an RFQ with my gerbers to a couple places. This board is
>> 2.75" square, 10mils clearance/trace width/annular ring, so a pretty
>> generic board. All of these places do a 5 day or less turnaround if
>> asked. Olimex was out because of a 10 day turnaround. Quantity 5
>> (prototypes..)
>>
>> 4. Advanced Circuits $64.00 (I really wanted to buy from them but
>> they're just too expensive)
>> 3. hamppcb.com $28.60
>> 2. ourpcb.com $27.08
>> 1. pcbnet.com $25.00
>
> My american experience is yelling: do not deal with any vendor,
> website or whatever which have 50% lower prices than market show. They
> are usualy fake, but could be ok with some miracle.
> I would love a feedback from you after you've got the boards.
> I presume you have experience in make differences between a
> proffesional PCB board and an amateur one. It needs a few years of PCB
> design.
>
> thx,
> Vasile
Received my boards today (3/18) ordered 3/06, shipped UPS ground on
3/13. Boards came from Illinois (USA) or possibly overseas (the
pcbnet.com website says foreign & domestic).
The boards appear to be of high quality but I don't know until I
assemble them. Real cost was $25 each.
On Fri, Mar 7, 2008 at 9:50 AM, Martin <martinspam_OUTnnytech.net> wrote:
> Some notes on price quotes and the drama that are circuit boards:
>
> Futurlec: I used to really not have a problem with Futurlec. I sent them
> a board a full month ago. They sent me an email 3 weeks ago asking a
> question about a feature of my board (a guard ring around a very high
> impedance wire). I told them that's the way it's supposed to be. Two
> weeks go by. I say "where's my board?" their response is: "Please answer
> the question." so I tell them I answered it already and I send them my
> response. Yesterday I send them an email "Where's my board?" their
> response: "Please answer the question." so. I'm done with Futurlec.
> (I know, shame on me for trying to get something cheaply)
It might be more illuminating to tell them that it is a guard ring,
and send them a URL explaining it.
Otherwise, it looks like a gerber file error causing a short that they
would end up eating the cost on.
I have had to do similar where I've milled the PCB out to provide a
mag head mounting/spring/cable combination. (patented)
David VanHorn wrote:
> It might be more illuminating to tell them that it is a guard ring,
> and send them a URL explaining it.
> Otherwise, it looks like a gerber file error causing a short that they
> would end up eating the cost on.
>
> I have had to do similar where I've milled the PCB out to provide a
> mag head mounting/spring/cable combination. (patented)
>
At the same time I had a "high end" board house ignore my comments that
the bottom layers were mirrored. "Yeah, no problem" they said. Yeah, no
problem that they screwed up 1000 boards. Not my fault.
So either I tell them that something might be a problem and someone
screws it up anyway, or I don't tell them and they hesitate for weeks.
Sheesh!
> At the same time I had a "high end" board house ignore my comments that
> the bottom layers were mirrored. "Yeah, no problem" they said. Yeah, no
> problem that they screwed up 1000 boards.
Hi Martin,
Why would you mirror the bottom layer? It seems like extra steps for you
all around, especially when you check the gerbers. I absolutely want my
X and Y origin to match on all layers, and it gives the board house
confidence in my work as well.
part 1 1292 bytes content-type:text/plain; charset="us-ascii" (decoded quoted-printable)
Martin,
One thing I learned a long tine ago is to put text AND targets on EVERY layer of board
Even middle layers.
Offset targets (3-5), so they can only align one way
Text that can only be read from one view top or bottom same edge view.
I once had top and bottom trace reversed.
Still worked for thru hole but not smd.
Ray
On Tue, 18 Mar 2008 22:39:31 -0400, Martin K wrote: {Quote hidden}
> David VanHorn wrote:
>> It might be more illuminating to tell them that it is a guard
>> ring, and send them a URL explaining it.
>> Otherwise, it looks like a gerber file error causing a short that
>> they would end up eating the cost on.
>>
>> I have had to do similar where I've milled the PCB out to provide
>> a mag head mounting/spring/cable combination. (patented)
>>
>
> At the same time I had a "high end" board house ignore my comments
> that the bottom layers were mirrored. "Yeah, no problem" they said.
> Yeah, no problem that they screwed up 1000 boards. Not my fault. So
> either I tell them that something might be a problem and someone
> screws it up anyway, or I don't tell them and they hesitate for
> weeks. Sheesh!
>
> -
> Martin
part 2 35 bytes content-type:text/plain; charset="us-ascii" (decoded 7bit)
> Hi Martin,
>
> Why would you mirror the bottom layer? It seems like extra steps for you
> all around, especially when you check the gerbers. I absolutely want my
> X and Y origin to match on all layers, and it gives the board house
> confidence in my work as well.
>
> Cheerful regards,
>
> Bob
I didn't intend to, but I already sent it to them and they said it was
fine, that they can easily flip it back over with their software.
> Bob Blick wrote:
>
>
>> Hi Martin,
>>
>> Why would you mirror the bottom layer? It seems like extra steps for you
>> all around, especially when you check the gerbers. I absolutely want my
>> X and Y origin to match on all layers, and it gives the board house
>> confidence in my work as well.
>>
>> Cheerful regards,
>>
>> Bob
>>
>
> I didn't intend to, but I already sent it to them and they said it was
> fine, that they can easily flip it back over with their software.
>
> -
> Martin
>
I inadvertently sent Gerbers to Advanced Circuits with a flipped bottom
layer (resulting from a new Eagle CAD installation). They actually
called me when the board failed their design rule check to help me
figure out what was wrong. Can't beat them on service.
nnytech.net> wrote:
