Exact match. Not showing close matches.
PICList
Thread
'[EE] Oscilloscopes...'
2006\04\03@073559
by
olin piclist
William Chops Westfield wrote:
> I *LIKE* my TDS-210,
I have one for my use at a customer, so have acquired some experience with
it. My biggest gripe with it is that the horizontal trigger position stays
fixed in time relative to the center of the screen when you change time
scales. It does not stay fixed in screen position as you would want. This
may sound like a minor nit, but when you use the scope regularly it gets
REALLY ANNOYING. Especially when you expand the time scale the trigger
position is suddenly gone because it got moved off screen. If you're not
used to this "feature", you start fumbling thru the menus trying to figure
out how you accidentally made the trigger display go away. After you're
used to it you have to remember to move the trigger to the center, expand
the time scale slowly, keep moving the trigger back to the center unless you
got it right on center the first time else the error will eventually blow up
and move it off screen, get to the right time scale, then move the trigger
back to where you had it in the first place. It gets to the point where you
dread changing the time scale so you don't have to mess around with the
trigger. Either that or leave the trigger in the center of the screen, but
that gets annoying too since that usually wastes half the screen.
It also pisses me off because we all know it would have been a simple
difference in the firmware to have done it right. I understand things like
bandwidth, sample depth, number of channels, etc cost money and that a low
end scope will have less of them, but doing this right would have cost
nothing extra.
Other things that are "unimpressive" but somewhat more forgiveable in a low
end scope are the relatively low screen resolution, particularly vertically,
and the surprisingly high noise especially at faster sample rates.
******************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, (978) 742-9014. #1 PIC
consultant in 2004 program year. http://www.embedinc.com/products
2006\04\03@074820
by
olin piclist
kravnus wolf wrote:
> Aligent VS tek.
>
> Does it convince you to buy tek? Not sure it is all
> marketing talk there.......
I don't know if it's the same page as the link you posted, but I did see a
comparison between Tek and Agilent. Unfortunately this was produced by Tek,
so any advantages of the Agilent might have were not mentioned. It does
provide a list of things to look into and make up your own mind about, but
I'm not going to take anything from it beyond that. I'd like to see a
similar blurb from Agilent. Between the two one might even be able to get
somewhere near the truth.
******************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, (978) 742-9014. #1 PIC
consultant in 2004 program year. http://www.embedinc.com/products
2006\04\03@080945
by
Mike Harrison
|
On Mon, 3 Apr 2006 07:37:17 -0400, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}>William Chops Westfield wrote:
>> I *LIKE* my TDS-210,
>
>I have one for my use at a customer, so have acquired some experience with
>it. My biggest gripe with it is that the horizontal trigger position stays
>fixed in time relative to the center of the screen when you change time
>scales. It does not stay fixed in screen position as you would want. This
>may sound like a minor nit, but when you use the scope regularly it gets
>REALLY ANNOYING. Especially when you expand the time scale the trigger
>position is suddenly gone because it got moved off screen. If you're not
>used to this "feature", you start fumbling thru the menus trying to figure
>out how you accidentally made the trigger display go away. After you're
>used to it you have to remember to move the trigger to the center, expand
>the time scale slowly, keep moving the trigger back to the center unless you
>got it right on center the first time else the error will eventually blow up
>and move it off screen, get to the right time scale, then move the trigger
>back to where you had it in the first place. It gets to the point where you
>dread changing the time scale so you don't have to mess around with the
>trigger. Either that or leave the trigger in the center of the screen, but
>that gets annoying too since that usually wastes half the screen.
It's this sort of niggle that makes evaluating scopes so important to see how well you can live with
them.
Incidentally the Agilents zoom around the centre (or optionally one div from the left or right side
- I prefer the left option as most of the time you are interested in what happens after the
trigger).
2006\04\03@082823
by
Michael Rigby-Jones
|
{Quote hidden}>-----Original Message-----
>From:
spam_OUTpiclist-bouncesTakeThisOuT
mit.edu [
.....piclist-bouncesKILLspam
@spam@mit.edu]
>Sent: 03 April 2006 13:09
>To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
>Subject: Re: [EE] Oscilloscopes...
>
>
>On Mon, 3 Apr 2006 07:37:17 -0400, you wrote:
>
>>William Chops Westfield wrote:
>>> I *LIKE* my TDS-210,
>>
>>I have one for my use at a customer, so have acquired some experience
>>with it. My biggest gripe with it is that the horizontal trigger
>>position stays fixed in time relative to the center of the
>screen when
>>you change time scales. It does not stay fixed in screen position as
>>you would want. This may sound like a minor nit, but when
>you use the
>>scope regularly it gets REALLY ANNOYING. Especially when you expand
>>the time scale the trigger position is suddenly gone because it got
>>moved off screen. If you're not used to this "feature", you start
>>fumbling thru the menus trying to figure out how you
>accidentally made
>>the trigger display go away. After you're used to it you have to
>>remember to move the trigger to the center, expand the time scale
>>slowly, keep moving the trigger back to the center unless you got it
>>right on center the first time else the error will eventually blow up
>>and move it off screen, get to the right time scale, then move the
>>trigger back to where you had it in the first place. It gets to the
>>point where you dread changing the time scale so you don't
>have to mess
>>around with the trigger. Either that or leave the trigger in the
>>center of the screen, but that gets annoying too since that usually
>>wastes half the screen.
>
>
>It's this sort of niggle that makes evaluating scopes so
>important to see how well you can live with them. Incidentally
>the Agilents zoom around the centre (or optionally one div
>from the left or right side
>- I prefer the left option as most of the time you are
>interested in what happens after the trigger).
Out Aglient 54622D's work the same as the Tek, i.e. if the time between the trigger point and middle of the screen stays constant, so zomming in moves the trigger position to the left or right unless it's bang on zero to start with. It is a bit annoying as it can take an impossibly long time to move the trigger back on the screen with the hoizontal postion control if you have zoomed in considerably. Normaly you have to zoom back out, zero the trigger and then zoom back in. Apart from that one niggle they are superb scopes though, I would love to have one at home.
Regards
Mike
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2006\04\03@084402
by
Alan B. Pearce
>> I *LIKE* my TDS-210,
>
>I have one for my use at a customer, so have acquired
>some experience with it. My biggest gripe with it is
>that the horizontal trigger position stays fixed in time
>relative to the center of the screen when you change time
>scales. It does not stay fixed in screen position as
>you would want. This may sound like a minor nit, but
>when you use the scope regularly it gets REALLY ANNOYING.
Ahh, you may not like the TDS3000 then, it does the same. cannot remember if
the TDS2000 does the same.
2006\04\03@084825
by
Gerhard Fiedler
|
Olin Lathrop wrote:
>> I *LIKE* my TDS-210,
>
> I have one for my use at a customer, so have acquired some experience with
> it. My biggest gripe with it is that the horizontal trigger position stays
> fixed in time relative to the center of the screen when you change time
> scales. It does not stay fixed in screen position as you would want. This
> may sound like a minor nit, but when you use the scope regularly it gets
> REALLY ANNOYING. Especially when you expand the time scale the trigger
> position is suddenly gone because it got moved off screen. If you're not
> used to this "feature", you start fumbling thru the menus trying to figure
> out how you accidentally made the trigger display go away.
I think it depends a bit whether that's a feature or an annoyance. I think
the logic behind is that whatever you want to look at is at or around 0,
whereas the trigger is where it needs to be so that what you want to look
at is at or around 0. Following this line of thought, it makes sense to
keep the 0 point fixed on the screen, not the trigger point.
I took me a bit to get used to it, but it's at least not without logic and
makes some sense. Probably best would be to be able to move the 0 point
around on the screen, or to have a configuration item that allows to choose
whether the trigger point or the 0 point is fixed.
OTOH, when I use the zoom feature, all this doesn't really matter -- and
that's what I use mostly when I want to zoom in on a part of the screen.
Quite often it's neither the part around the trigger point nor the part
around the 0 point that I want to zoom in on, and the zoom feature
conveniently lets me preview and adjust in the coarse time base view what
part of the signal I'll be looking at after zooming in.
Gerhard
2006\04\03@085552
by
Mike Harrison
|
>Out Aglient 54622D's work the same as the Tek, i.e. if the time between the trigger point and middle of the screen stays constant, so zomming in moves the trigger position to the left or right unless it's bang on zero to start with. It is a bit annoying as it can take an impossibly long time to move the trigger back on the screen with the hoizontal postion control if you have zoomed in considerably. Normaly you have to zoom back out, zero the trigger and then zoom back in. Apart from that one niggle they are superb scopes though, I would love to have one at home.
This is an inherent issue with deep-memory scopes, and there is a really nice way that it could be
overcome if they thought about it- a single button to reset the delay to zero. A 'push-to-zero'
function on the delay time knob would be absolutely perfect for this.
On my old 54645D, I actually made up a little external button-box to provide this function (and a
few others) by sending the appropriate RS232 command.
2006\04\03@091015
by
olin piclist
Mike Harrison wrote:
> Incidentally the Agilents zoom around the centre (or optionally one div
> from the left or right side - I prefer the left option as most of the
> time you are interested in what happens after the trigger).
Exactly. I usually have the trigger one division from the left edge. After
all, an analog scope basically has the trigger permanently fixed at the left
edge. Tek committed a major blunder by not at least making their digital
scope capable of acting like an old fashioned analog scope many people will
be used to. It doesn't have to be the only mode, but it should be there.
I still don't understand why there has to be a mode to select where to zoom
the time scale around. Why is it that nobody implements the obvious answer
of zooming around the current trigger position, at least as an optional
mode? It might be useful to have other modes, but that's the one I would
use 99% of the time and would be fine with as the only mode in a low end
scope. It seems they got fancy because they could but forgot to think about
it. It feels like the features were implemented by a bunch of software
weenies that never used a scope. In the end the optimized for the 1% case
at the expense of the 99% case.
******************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, (978) 742-9014. #1 PIC
consultant in 2004 program year. http://www.embedinc.com/products
2006\04\03@092145
by
olin piclist
Gerhard Fiedler wrote:
> I think it depends a bit whether that's a feature or an annoyance. I
> think the logic behind is that whatever you want to look at is at or
> around 0,
But that's the point. This is rarely the case. This may be some firmware
engineer's idea of how to use a scope, but it's not how scope are really
used most of the time.
******************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, (978) 742-9014. #1 PIC
consultant in 2004 program year. http://www.embedinc.com/products
2006\04\03@094002
by
Mike Harrison
|
On Mon, 3 Apr 2006 09:11:19 -0400, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}>Mike Harrison wrote:
>> Incidentally the Agilents zoom around the centre (or optionally one div
>> from the left or right side - I prefer the left option as most of the
>> time you are interested in what happens after the trigger).
>
>Exactly. I usually have the trigger one division from the left edge. After
>all, an analog scope basically has the trigger permanently fixed at the left
>edge. Tek committed a major blunder by not at least making their digital
>scope capable of acting like an old fashioned analog scope many people will
>be used to. It doesn't have to be the only mode, but it should be there.
>
>I still don't understand why there has to be a mode to select where to zoom
>the time scale around. Why is it that nobody implements the obvious answer
>of zooming around the current trigger position, at least as an optional
>mode? It might be useful to have other modes, but that's the one I would
>use 99% of the time and would be fine with as the only mode in a low end
>scope. It seems they got fancy because they could but forgot to think about
>it. It feels like the features were implemented by a bunch of software
>weenies that never used a scope. In the end the optimized for the 1% case
>at the expense of the 99% case.
>
Certainly add it as an option, but the main benefit I find of deep-memory scopes is you don't need
to worry too much about getting the right trigger point - just grab a bunch of time and zoom in.
Therefore the point you want to zoom in on is almost always NOT the trigger point, so centering the
zoom on a fixed 'place on the screen' is generally more intuitive than centering on the trigger.
2006\04\03@114911
by
William Chops Westfield
On Apr 3, 2006, at 4:37 AM, Olin Lathrop wrote:
> It also pisses me off because we all know it would have been
> a simple difference in the firmware to have done it right. I
> understand things like bandwidth, sample depth, number of
> channels, etc cost money and that a low end scope will have
> less of them, but doing this right would have cost nothing extra.
>
I wonder if anyone will ever sell an open-source oscilloscope?
Don't like the way the SW works? Fix it yourself, or download
the "unstable with enhanced extra knobs" version from your favorite
repository. Since a lot of the high end scopes these days seem to
be essentially PC clones as the Display/UI, it's not unthinkable.
BillW
2006\04\03@125551
by
kravnus wolf
Actually from the amount of members on the list and
the quality we have I am suprise we don't build one as
a team. Hint hint ;)
John
--- William Chops Westfield <westfw
KILLspammac.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}>
> On Apr 3, 2006, at 4:37 AM, Olin Lathrop wrote:
>
> > It also pisses me off because we all know it would
> have been
> > a simple difference in the firmware to have done
> it right. I
> > understand things like bandwidth, sample depth,
> number of
> > channels, etc cost money and that a low end scope
> will have
> > less of them, but doing this right would have cost
> nothing extra.
> >
> I wonder if anyone will ever sell an open-source
> oscilloscope?
> Don't like the way the SW works? Fix it yourself,
> or download
> the "unstable with enhanced extra knobs" version
> from your favorite
> repository. Since a lot of the high end scopes
> these days seem to
> be essentially PC clones as the Display/UI, it's not
> unthinkable.
>
> BillW
> --
2006\04\03@125955
by
Philip Pemberton
In message <.....59b85d8f05969c249e60a120e09bab02KILLspam
.....mac.com>
>
William "Chops" Westfield <EraseMEwestfwspam_OUT
TakeThisOuTmac.com> wrote:
> I wonder if anyone will ever sell an open-source oscilloscope?
> Don't like the way the SW works? Fix it yourself, or download
> the "unstable with enhanced extra knobs" version from your favorite
> repository. Since a lot of the high end scopes these days seem to
> be essentially PC clones as the Display/UI, it's not unthinkable.
I'd love to do something like that. I can do the software and probably the
digital hardware, but I have absolutely no idea how to go about designing
high-bandwidth low-noise amplifiers and such for the input circuitry.
A DSO isn't *that* complex - when you boil it down to its essentials, you've
got:
- Front end amplifier (1 per channel)
- A/D converter / acquisition circuitry (1 per channel)
- Heavily filtered low-noise power supply
- High speed RAM (SDRAM these days, though 10nS SRAM would be quite
suitable if you could live with the relatively low data density)
- Acquisition controller
- Trigger circuitry (or just leave the ADC acquiring all the time and
implement this in the acq controller)
- CPU interface (PCI?)
- CPU, display and UI (PC?)
It would certainly be fun to build something that gave Tek's low- to
mid-range scopes a run for their money :)
Anyone want to join me? :P
--
Phil. | Kitsune: Acorn RiscPC SA202 64M+6G ViewFinder
philpem
spam_OUTdsl.pipex.com | Cheetah: Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxeV2 512M+100G
http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Tiger: Toshiba SatPro4600 Celeron700 256M+40G
2006\04\03@131853
by
Hazelwood Lyle
> -----Original Message-----
> From: kravnus wolf [@spam@kravnusKILLspam
yahoo.com]
> Sent: Monday, April 03, 2006 12:56 PM
> To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
> Subject: Re: [EE] Oscilloscopes...
>
>
> Actually from the amount of members on the list and
> the quality we have I am suprise we don't build one as
> a team. Hint hint ;)
>
> John
>
EXTREMELY unlikely.
We collectively can't even agree on a PIC programmer design.
The amount of expertise on this list is considerable, but
with that comes a.. "diversity of opinion"... Yeah, that's
the right word, I think. :-)
Lyle
2006\04\03@132740
by
William Chops Westfield
On Apr 3, 2006, at 9:55 AM, kravnus wolf wrote:
>> [open source Osilloscope]
> Actually from the amount of members on the list and the quality
> we have I am suprise we don't build one as a team. Hint hint ;)
I don't WANT to build one. That's *HARD*; high precision analog
design is SCARY. What I want is to be able to take a commercially
purchased unit and just TWEAK the software a little bit so that it
ends up more like the way I want it to be...
BillW
2006\04\03@134340
by
Mike Harrison
|
On Mon, 03 Apr 2006 17:58:28 +0100, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}>In message <
KILLspam59b85d8f05969c249e60a120e09bab02KILLspam
mac.com>
>
> William "Chops" Westfield <RemoveMEwestfwTakeThisOuT
mac.com> wrote:
>
>> I wonder if anyone will ever sell an open-source oscilloscope?
>> Don't like the way the SW works? Fix it yourself, or download
>> the "unstable with enhanced extra knobs" version from your favorite
>> repository. Since a lot of the high end scopes these days seem to
>> be essentially PC clones as the Display/UI, it's not unthinkable.
>
>I'd love to do something like that. I can do the software and probably the
>digital hardware, but I have absolutely no idea how to go about designing
>high-bandwidth low-noise amplifiers and such for the input circuitry.
>
>A DSO isn't *that* complex - when you boil it down to its essentials, you've
>got:
> - Front end amplifier (1 per channel)
> - A/D converter / acquisition circuitry (1 per channel)
> - Heavily filtered low-noise power supply
> - High speed RAM (SDRAM these days, though 10nS SRAM would be quite
> suitable if you could live with the relatively low data density)
> - Acquisition controller
> - Trigger circuitry (or just leave the ADC acquiring all the time and
> implement this in the acq controller)
> - CPU interface (PCI?)
> - CPU, display and UI (PC?)
>
>It would certainly be fun to build something that gave Tek's low- to
>mid-range scopes a run for their money :)
>
>Anyone want to join me? :P
It gets more interesting when you want a more responsive acquisition-to-display interface though
(Tek DPO etc.) Also, SDRAM only gives decent performance in bursts, so a SRAM buffer would also be
necessary. Both of these could be done in a not-too expensive FPGA.
This would be a good base to start with perhaps :
http://www.enterpoint.co.uk/moelbryn/raggedstone1.html
2006\04\03@135521
by
Tomas Larsson
|
{Quote hidden}> -----Original Message-----
> From:
spamBeGonepiclist-bouncesspamBeGone
mit.edu
> [
TakeThisOuTpiclist-bouncesEraseME
spam_OUTmit.edu] On Behalf Of William Chops Westfield
> Sent: Monday, April 03, 2006 7:28 PM
> To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
> Subject: Re: [EE] Oscilloscopes...
>
>
> On Apr 3, 2006, at 9:55 AM, kravnus wolf wrote:
> >> [open source Osilloscope]
>
> > Actually from the amount of members on the list and the quality we
> > have I am suprise we don't build one as a team. Hint hint ;)
>
> I don't WANT to build one. That's *HARD*; high precision
> analog design is SCARY. What I want is to be able to take a
> commercially purchased unit and just TWEAK the software a
> little bit so that it ends up more like the way I want it to be...
>
> BillW
Well Bitscope is avaible with both commercial and free open source software,
Cost from some $300 or so.
With best regards
Tomas Larsson
Sweden
http://www.naks.mine.nu for downloads etc.
ftp://ktl.mine.nu for uploads. Or use the free http://www.yousendit.com service.
Verus Amicus Est Tamquam Alter Idem
2006\04\03@141619
by
Robert Rolf
|
One of the newer Tek scopes uses JAVA. (TDS 700)
http://www.tektronix.com/Measurement/cgi-bin/framed.pl?Document=/Measurement/Products/press/javascope/eng/index.html&FrameSet=oscilloscopes
Tektronix Embraces JavaTM Technology
"BEAVERTON, OREGON (March 24, 1998) -- Meeting market demand for
swift access to application-specific measurement capabilities,
Tektronix, Inc. (NYSE: TEK) today introduced the first-ever test
and measurement instrument implementation of JavaTM technology.
This technology, which is to be included by Tektronix with its
future high-end oscilloscopes, includes technology licensed by
Sun Microsystems, Inc. "
So the trick would be decompiling an 'update' to see how things
tick.
R
William Chops Westfield wrote:
{Quote hidden}> On Apr 3, 2006, at 4:37 AM, Olin Lathrop wrote:
>
>
>>It also pisses me off because we all know it would have been
>>a simple difference in the firmware to have done it right. I
>>understand things like bandwidth, sample depth, number of
>>channels, etc cost money and that a low end scope will have
>>less of them, but doing this right would have cost nothing extra.
>>
>
> I wonder if anyone will ever sell an open-source oscilloscope?
> Don't like the way the SW works? Fix it yourself, or download
> the "unstable with enhanced extra knobs" version from your favorite
> repository. Since a lot of the high end scopes these days seem to
> be essentially PC clones as the Display/UI, it's not unthinkable.
>
> BillW
2006\04\03@142546
by
Robert Rolf
William Chops Westfield wrote:
{Quote hidden}> On Apr 3, 2006, at 9:55 AM, kravnus wolf wrote:
>
>>>[open source Osilloscope]
>
>
>>Actually from the amount of members on the list and the quality
>>we have I am suprise we don't build one as a team. Hint hint ;)
>
>
> I don't WANT to build one. That's *HARD*; high precision analog
> design is SCARY. What I want is to be able to take a commercially
> purchased unit and just TWEAK the software a little bit so that it
> ends up more like the way I want it to be...
Like the many hacks based on the Linksys WRT54G routers, which are
essentially running a linux kernal.
R
2006\04\03@152636
by
William Chops Westfield
On Apr 3, 2006, at 11:25 AM, Robert Rolf wrote:
>> I don't WANT to build one.
> Like the many hacks based on the Linksys WRT54G routers, which are
> essentially running a linux kernal.
>
Yes, exactly! Although in that case I think only enough of the
official software is "open source" that people have been able
to replace it wholesale; A sort of "we didn't really mean for
this to be open source but we got caught by the GPL. Oops."
SW that was intended to be open source from the start would be
better. The situation with Tivo is probably a better example.
Although - I think the official theory is that all other WRT54G
software is a "support nightmare." (note "theory" - I'm not sure
that this is true.) Newer versions of the box labeled WRT54G
have different HW, the official software is no longer linux based,
and the third-party images don't run. For which we were duly dinged
by the open source community. (though I can see both sides of THAT.)
BillW
2006\04\03@163744
by
James Newtons Massmind
Philip Pemberton Sent: 2006 Apr 03, Mon 09:58
> Anyone want to join me? :P
I'm still waiting to sell a kit based on your existing SX Logic Analyzer...
---
James.
2006\04\03@163931
by
James Newton, Host
> EXTREMELY unlikely.
> We collectively can't even agree on a PIC programmer design.
> The amount of expertise on this list is considerable, but
> with that comes a.. "diversity of opinion"... Yeah, that's
> the right word, I think. :-)
Before anyone decides to try doing another "group project" PLEASE go to the
archive and read the threads on the last group design that was attempted on
the piclist. Search for CUMP or... What was the other one called? The
development kit thing?
---
James Newton: PICList webmaster/Admin
RemoveMEjamesnewton
TakeThisOuTpiclist.com 1-619-652-0593 phone
http://www.piclist.com/member/JMN-EFP-786
PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com
2006\04\03@165332
by
Mark Rages
On 4/3/06, William Chops Westfield <westfwEraseME
.....mac.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}>
> On Apr 3, 2006, at 11:25 AM, Robert Rolf wrote:
>
> >> I don't WANT to build one.
>
> > Like the many hacks based on the Linksys WRT54G routers, which are
> > essentially running a linux kernal.
> >
> Yes, exactly! Although in that case I think only enough of the
> official software is "open source" that people have been able
> to replace it wholesale; A sort of "we didn't really mean for
> this to be open source but we got caught by the GPL. Oops."
> SW that was intended to be open source from the start would be
> better. The situation with Tivo is probably a better example.
>
> Although - I think the official theory is that all other WRT54G
> software is a "support nightmare." (note "theory" - I'm not sure
> that this is true.) Newer versions of the box labeled WRT54G
> have different HW, the official software is no longer linux based,
> and the third-party images don't run. For which we were duly dinged
> by the open source community. (though I can see both sides of THAT.)
>
They still sell the Linux-combatible version as "WRT54GL". So I guess
they've learned quickly. Open firmware has made the WRT54G the most
desirable consumer wireless router out there. It's the only one with
a model number I've memorized, and with fan sites on the Internet.
Someday I'm going to add wheels to one and make a Linux-powered robot.
Regards,
Mark
markrages@gmail
--
You think that it is a secret, but it never has been one.
- fortune cookie
2006\04\03@171614
by
Randy Glenn
2006\04\03@214905
by
kravnus wolf
I know what you mean. A PC. Don't like the OS, change
it. I like TI calc for it's programming capabilities
but the OS is off limits.... Maybe someone Just like
my PalmIII.
Such fine hardware without being able to do anything.
John
--- William Chops Westfield <RemoveMEwestfwspam_OUT
KILLspammac.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}>
> On Apr 3, 2006, at 9:55 AM, kravnus wolf wrote:
> >> [open source Osilloscope]
>
> > Actually from the amount of members on the list
> and the quality
> > we have I am suprise we don't build one as a team.
> Hint hint ;)
>
> I don't WANT to build one. That's *HARD*; high
> precision analog
> design is SCARY. What I want is to be able to take
> a commercially
> purchased unit and just TWEAK the software a little
> bit so that it
> ends up more like the way I want it to be...
>
> BillW
> --
2006\04\03@234415
by
William Chops Westfield
On Apr 3, 2006, at 6:49 PM, kravnus wolf wrote:
> Just like my PalmIII.
Ohh. A digiscope-type thing that plugged into a palmtop
for it's UI would be pretty neat!
BillW
2006\04\04@010619
by
Mike Hord
> >This may sound like a minor nit, but
> >when you use the scope regularly it gets REALLY ANNOYING.
>
> Ahh, you may not like the TDS3000 then, it does the same. cannot remember if
> the TDS2000 does the same.
It does, but IIRC the 2000 has something the 3000 and the 200 series don't:
a "zero horizontal" button. I just got a 3000 on my desk at work today (first
day on the job; heck of a way to make a first impression!), and that was a
flaw I noticed straight away.
Mike H.
2006\04\04@011100
by
kravnus wolf
But the update through RS232 is not enough. But still
useful for low freq. sounds like a good idea. Is there
any place that sell this kind of portable cable?
John
--- William Chops Westfield <RemoveMEwestfwTakeThisOuT
spammac.com> wrote:
> On Apr 3, 2006, at 6:49 PM, kravnus wolf wrote:
>
> > Just like my PalmIII.
>
> Ohh. A digiscope-type thing that plugged into a
> palmtop
> for it's UI would be pretty neat!
>
> BillW
> --
2006\04\04@014947
by
Nate Duehr
William Chops Westfield wrote:
> Although - I think the official theory is that all other WRT54G
> software is a "support nightmare." (note "theory" - I'm not sure
> that this is true.) Newer versions of the box labeled WRT54G
> have different HW, the official software is no longer linux based,
> and the third-party images don't run. For which we were duly dinged
> by the open source community. (though I can see both sides of THAT.)
Linksys switched to the VxWorks RTOS on the later models of the WRT54G
series routers, but understood that people who WANT to hack their
routers wanted to Linux version, so they released the WRT54GL -- "L" for
Linux.
Nate
2006\04\04@075201
by
Philip Pemberton
2006\04\04@081020
by
Gerhard Fiedler
kravnus wolf wrote:
>> Ohh. A digiscope-type thing that plugged into a palmtop for it's UI
>> would be pretty neat!
> But the update through RS232 is not enough.
Are you sure? Depends on where you put the transition from input data to
screen data. Say 115k2 b/s and 50 Hz screen refresh; that gives around 2k
bits per refresh. Could be enough with a compression algorithm.
Gerhard
2006\04\04@083406
by
William Chops Westfield
On Apr 4, 2006, at 4:50 AM, Philip Pemberton wrote:
>> Is there any place that sell this kind of portable cable?
>
> There used to be places that sold the Palm HotSync connectors,
> but I haven't seen any for a long while. I wanted a bare connector
> for my Palm VIIx so I could build up a few cables, but it looks
> like they're unobtainium now.
>
PDA cables are distressingly one-of-a-kind, but I bought several
of these to go with my old Palm IIIs:
http://www.surpluscomputers.com/store/main.aspx?
p=ItemDetail&item=ACC10692
There seems to be no end of add-on vendors that got "burnt" by
the high turnover rate of the physical connectors (and stylus
shape) of PDAs a couple of years back (things seem more settled
now, I guess.) There are several places selling things like
keypads for the Palm m100; I've seen prices down around $1.99:
http://www.geeks.com/details.asp?invtid=TKB150P&cat=PDA
BillW
2006\04\04@084233
by
William Chops Westfield
On Apr 4, 2006, at 5:09 AM, Gerhard Fiedler wrote:
>> But the update through RS232 is not enough.
>
I figure a screen update is about 160 bytes (cause the screen
is typically 160x160 pixles, so a 115200bps link would give you
better than 50Hz update, assuming the screen can even go that fast,
even without compression...
BillW
2006\04\04@090818
by
William Couture
On 4/4/06, William Chops Westfield <spamBeGonewestfwSTOPspam
EraseMEmac.com> wrote:
>
> On Apr 4, 2006, at 5:09 AM, Gerhard Fiedler wrote:
>
> >> But the update through RS232 is not enough.
> >
>
> I figure a screen update is about 160 bytes (cause the screen
> is typically 160x160 pixles, so a 115200bps link would give you
> better than 50Hz update, assuming the screen can even go that fast,
> even without compression...
160 pixels * 160 pixels = 25600 pixels
For a monochrome screen, 1 pixel == 1 bit
25600 / 8 = 3200 bytes per screen
at 10 bits per byte RS232, 32000 bits per screen
(Yes, this is more than the original resolution)
at 115200 baud, 115200 / 32000 = 3.6Hz update
If the pixels are not monochrome, multiply bits by color
depth in pixels, and divide update by color depth in
pixels.
Bill
--
Psst... Hey, you... Buddy... Want a kitten? straycatblues.petfinder.org
2006\04\04@091624
by
Michael Rigby-Jones
|
{Quote hidden}>-----Original Message-----
>From:
KILLspampiclist-bouncesspamBeGone
mit.edu [
EraseMEpiclist-bounces
EraseMEmit.edu]
>Sent: 04 April 2006 14:08
>To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
>Subject: Re: [EE] Oscilloscopes...
>
>
>On 4/4/06, William Chops Westfield <
@spam@westfw@spam@
spam_OUTmac.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Apr 4, 2006, at 5:09 AM, Gerhard Fiedler wrote:
>>
>> >> But the update through RS232 is not enough.
>> >
>>
>> I figure a screen update is about 160 bytes (cause the screen is
>> typically 160x160 pixles, so a 115200bps link would give you better
>> than 50Hz update, assuming the screen can even go that fast, even
>> without compression...
>
>160 pixels * 160 pixels = 25600 pixels
>
>For a monochrome screen, 1 pixel == 1 bit
>
>25600 / 8 = 3200 bytes per screen
>
>at 10 bits per byte RS232, 32000 bits per screen
>(Yes, this is more than the original resolution)
>
>at 115200 baud, 115200 / 32000 = 3.6Hz update
>
>If the pixels are not monochrome, multiply bits by color
>depth in pixels, and divide update by color depth in
>pixels.
>
>Bill
But it's an oscilloscope, you don't want to display pictures so why not just send the cordinates of the data points? For a 160x160 screen that's a maximum of 160 bytes, less if you want to try and use the redundant bits.
Regards
Mike
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2006\04\04@092844
by
Wouter van Ooijen
2006\04\04@094930
by
Robert Rolf
|
Michael Rigby-Jones wrote:
{Quote hidden}>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From:
spamBeGonepiclist-bounces
KILLspammit.edu [
.....piclist-bouncesspam_OUT
mit.edu]
>>Sent: 04 April 2006 14:08
>>To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
>>Subject: Re: [EE] Oscilloscopes...
>>
>>
>>On 4/4/06, William Chops Westfield <
TakeThisOuTwestfw.....
TakeThisOuTmac.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Apr 4, 2006, at 5:09 AM, Gerhard Fiedler wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>>But the update through RS232 is not enough.
>>>>
>>>I figure a screen update is about 160 bytes (cause the screen is
>>>typically 160x160 pixles, so a 115200bps link would give you better
>>>than 50Hz update, assuming the screen can even go that fast, even
>>>without compression...
>>
>>160 pixels * 160 pixels = 25600 pixels
>>
>>For a monochrome screen, 1 pixel == 1 bit
>>
>>25600 / 8 = 3200 bytes per screen
>>
>>at 10 bits per byte RS232, 32000 bits per screen
>>(Yes, this is more than the original resolution)
>>
>>at 115200 baud, 115200 / 32000 = 3.6Hz update
>>
>>If the pixels are not monochrome, multiply bits by color
>>depth in pixels, and divide update by color depth in
>>pixels.
>>
>>Bill
>
>
> But it's an oscilloscope, you don't want to display pictures so why not just send the cordinates of the data points? For a 160x160 screen that's a maximum of 160 bytes, less if you want to try and use the redundant bits.
You don't even need full coordinates. Just the sample values. Let the Palm(R) display
software decide where to place them (scroll vs sweep vs average vs peak/envelope).
Seems to me it would be dead easy to use a PIC with 8 bit A/D (since screen
can't show more than 160 steps) to make this interface. Could do multi channel
as well.
R
2006\04\04@113216
by
William Chops Westfield
On Apr 4, 2006, at 6:28 AM, Wouter van Ooijen wrote:
>> I've seen prices down around $1.99:
>> http://www.geeks.com/details.asp?invtid=TKB150P&cat=PDA
>
> I see $4.99, or did I miss something?
>
It's one of the things that periodically goes "on sale", but
not at the moment...
BillW
2006\04\04@114033
by
Randy Glenn
|
On 4/4/06, William Couture <TakeThisOuTbcoutureKILLspam
spamgmail.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}> On 4/4/06, William Chops Westfield <
.....westfw
RemoveMEmac.com> wrote:
> >
> > On Apr 4, 2006, at 5:09 AM, Gerhard Fiedler wrote:
> >
> > >> But the update through RS232 is not enough.
> > >
> >
> > I figure a screen update is about 160 bytes (cause the screen
> > is typically 160x160 pixles, so a 115200bps link would give you
> > better than 50Hz update, assuming the screen can even go that fast,
> > even without compression...
>
> 160 pixels * 160 pixels = 25600 pixels
>
> For a monochrome screen, 1 pixel == 1 bit
>
> 25600 / 8 = 3200 bytes per screen
>
> at 10 bits per byte RS232, 32000 bits per screen
> (Yes, this is more than the original resolution)
>
> at 115200 baud, 115200 / 32000 = 3.6Hz update
>
> If the pixels are not monochrome, multiply bits by color
> depth in pixels, and divide update by color depth in
> pixels.
>
> Bill
That's assuming that you want to be able to display any old bitmap you
want. If just a line is sufficient, you only need to send one value -
the Y coordinate - for each column of pixels. Thus, 160 bytes / frame.
--
-Randy Glenn
Computer Eng. and Mgt. Year IV, McMaster University
Regional Student Representative, IEEE Canada
randy.glenn-at-gmail.com - glennrb-at-mcmaster.ca
randy.glenn-at-computer.org - randy_glenn-at-ieee.org
http://www.randyglenn.ca
2006\04\04@171731
by
Peter
On Mon, 3 Apr 2006, William Chops Westfield wrote:
> I don't WANT to build one. That's *HARD*; high precision analog
> design is SCARY. What I want is to be able to take a commercially
> purchased unit and just TWEAK the software a little bit so that it
> ends up more like the way I want it to be...
How high are the specs that you need ? For lower end there are several
solutions with open source front ends. For example:
http://www.syscompdesign.com/
only 2MHz (20MHz sampling) and not so cheap. There are a few others like
this.
Peter
2006\04\04@171804
by
Mike Hord
> > Just like my PalmIII.
>
> Ohh. A digiscope-type thing that plugged into a palmtop
> for it's UI would be pretty neat!
Funny you mention that. Xilinx has an Appnote on their
website about making a portable o-scope with an older
Handspring Visor using the Insight Springboard Dev Kit.
If you can find the dev kit, the Visors are pretty cheap now.
I'm on the lookout for one, now that I know what I can do
with it...I have the Visor, just need the dev kit.
Mike H.
2006\04\04@175416
by
Philip Pemberton
In message <RemoveME88eca9220604041418h57c691f8s3c58ff64594a4fd8
spamBeGonemail.gmail.com>
>
"Mike Hord" <spamBeGonemike.hord@spam@
spam_OUTgmail.com> wrote:
> Funny you mention that. Xilinx has an Appnote on their
> website about making a portable o-scope with an older
> Handspring Visor using the Insight Springboard Dev Kit.
Wasn't it a logic analyser, not an oscilloscope?
I've just been reading through the appnote - it looks pretty nifty. Certainly
a few neat ideas worth borrowing.
> If you can find the dev kit, the Visors are pretty cheap now.
>
> I'm on the lookout for one, now that I know what I can do
> with it...I have the Visor, just need the dev kit.
I've got a Palm VIIx here, and I'm looking for a good Palm OS programming
tutorial. I've got PODS and Cygwin installed, it's just a case of figuring
out how to actually write some software with it :)
Thanks.
--
Phil. | Kitsune: Acorn RiscPC SA202 64M+6G ViewFinder
TakeThisOuTphilpemspam
dsl.pipex.com | Cheetah: Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxeV2 512M+100G
http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Tiger: Toshiba SatPro4600 Celeron700 256M+40G
2006\04\04@220407
by
kravnus wolf
you can just send the sampled data to the palm and get
the palm to draw the sinwave there. less bandwidth BUT
more processor hungry. Not sure whether the Palm can
handle it that well.
john
--- Michael Rigby-Jones
<Michael.Rigby-JonesEraseME
bookham.com> wrote:
>
>
> >{Original Message removed}
2006\04\04@221405
by
Dave King
That is going to vary quite a bit by model. I have a
Zire 31 and watch colour movies at just under 30fps.
(29.97 video rate). The 31 has a 160x160 display and
16mb of ram and you can stick up to a 1gb sdram card
in it for storage. The USB/Serial speed is up to 154K
and the cpu is 400mhz.
Dave
{Quote hidden}> you can just send the sampled data to the palm and get
> the palm to draw the sinwave there. less bandwidth BUT
> more processor hungry. Not sure whether the Palm can
> handle it that well.
>
> john
>
> --- Michael Rigby-Jones
> <
RemoveMEMichael.Rigby-JonesEraseME
spam_OUTbookham.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > >{Original Message removed}
2006\04\05@000242
by
William Chops Westfield
On Apr 4, 2006, at 7:04 PM, kravnus wolf wrote:
> you can just send the sampled data to the palm and get
> the palm to draw the sinwave there. less bandwidth BUT
> more processor hungry.
No, no! The whole point is that the "scope" section has to
operate at quite HIGH bandwidth. Tens of thousands, preferably
millions of samples per second, and as many bits as your A-D
can sample. The display only has to be updating at its maximum
display resolution, with an update time dependent on display and
HUMAN reaction times, which are much slower than the scope "needs"
to deal with...
BillW
2006\04\05@053650
by
Alan B. Pearce
2006\04\06@112553
by
Mike Hord
|
Yes and no. Here are three links of pertinence:
direct.xilinx.com/bvdocs/appnotes/xapp146.pdf
8 channel digital voltmeter.
direct.xilinx.com/bvdocs/appnotes/xapp149.pdf
Oscilloscope.
direct.xilinx.com/bvdocs/appnotes/xapp368.pdf
Logic analyzer.
They also have a few other neat projects. If I could only
find the dev kit!
Mike H.
On 4/4/06, Philip Pemberton <@spam@philpemRemoveME
EraseMEdsl.pipex.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}> In message <
EraseME88eca9220604041418h57c691f8s3c58ff64594a4fd8
@spam@mail.gmail.com>
>
> "Mike Hord" <@spam@mike.hordspam_OUT
.....gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Funny you mention that. Xilinx has an Appnote on their
> > website about making a portable o-scope with an older
> > Handspring Visor using the Insight Springboard Dev Kit.
>
> Wasn't it a logic analyser, not an oscilloscope?
> I've just been reading through the appnote - it looks pretty nifty. Certainly
> a few neat ideas worth borrowing.
>
> > If you can find the dev kit, the Visors are pretty cheap now.
> >
> > I'm on the lookout for one, now that I know what I can do
> > with it...I have the Visor, just need the dev kit.
>
> I've got a Palm VIIx here, and I'm looking for a good Palm OS programming
> tutorial. I've got PODS and Cygwin installed, it's just a case of figuring
> out how to actually write some software with it :)
>
> Thanks.
> --
> Phil. | Kitsune: Acorn RiscPC SA202 64M+6G ViewFinder
>
spamBeGonephilpemEraseME
dsl.pipex.com | Cheetah: Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxeV2 512M+100G
>
http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Tiger: Toshiba SatPro4600 Celeron700 256M+40G
> -
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