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'[EE] ONSemi quality'
2007\11\05@153730 by Mike Hord

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Anyone have anything to say about ON Semiconductor's quality?

We have a small batch of ON Semi ICs failing in an unusually
short field deployment time and I'm wondering if anyone has
encountered general or specific issues with ON's parts.  They
of course have nothing to say about it.

Mike H.

2007\11\05@160817 by David VanHorn

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> We have a small batch of ON Semi ICs failing in an unusually
> short field deployment time and I'm wondering if anyone has
> encountered general or specific issues with ON's parts.  They
> of course have nothing to say about it.

Having been in similar situations with other vendors, are you sure you
are within the parts ratings?
I've seen cases where the ratings weren't published in the current
data sheets, or the violation wasn't possible to measure outside the
part's casing.

2007\11\05@161709 by Spehro Pefhany

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Quoting Mike Hord <spam_OUTmike.hordTakeThisOuTspamgmail.com>:

> Anyone have anything to say about ON Semiconductor's quality?
>
> We have a small batch of ON Semi ICs failing in an unusually
> short field deployment time and I'm wondering if anyone has
> encountered general or specific issues with ON's parts.  They
> of course have nothing to say about it.
Quoting Mike Hord <.....mike.hordKILLspamspam@spam@gmail.com>:

> Anyone have anything to say about ON Semiconductor's quality?
>
> We have a small batch of ON Semi ICs failing in an unusually
> short field deployment time and I'm wondering if anyone has
> encountered general or specific issues with ON's parts.  They
> of course have nothing to say about it.

I think *generally* they are very good, however I think most manufacturers
have occasional problems. Sometimes they change things which affects designs
which were pushing (or over) the limits (stated or implied) and failures
occur (for example ESD protection circuitry). I've seen problems with a couple
of parts from their predecessor Motorola, as well as several other "big name"
companies. Stuff happens, and because of liability concerns you may have
trouble getting them to admit it.

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..."                          "The Journey is the reward"
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Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com




2007\11\05@173824 by Bob Blick

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Any chance they are counterfeit parts?

--- Mike Hord <.....mike.hordKILLspamspam.....gmail.com> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

2007\11\05@174009 by Russell McMahon

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flavicon
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> We have a small batch of ON Semi ICs failing in an
> unusually
> short field deployment time and I'm wondering if anyone
> has
> encountered general or specific issues with ON's parts.
> They
> of course have nothing to say about it.



Examples of the general situation (almost) always help.
Sometimes people may spot an inobvious fault cause if you
are free to divulge enough information.

ON Semi are usually regarded as a quality supplier.


   Russell


2007\11\05@175844 by Xiaofan Chen

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On 11/6/07, Russell McMahon <EraseMEapptechspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTparadise.net.nz> wrote:
> ON Semi are usually regarded as a quality supplier.
>

I thought so but our component engineers are now recommending
us not to use them. Not so sure why, maybe quality issue.

Xiaofan

2007\11\05@191104 by Russell McMahon

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> On 11/6/07, Russell McMahon <apptechspamspam_OUTparadise.net.nz>
> wrote:

>> ON Semi are usually regarded as a quality supplier.

> I thought so but our component engineers are now
> recommending
> us not to use them. Not so sure why, maybe quality issue.

I would want more than an unsupported recommendation before
moving away from such a capable and experienced supplier.
Their QC has always been international-standards based and,
if one considers them as Motorola under a different name
(which is variably true), then they have a long standing
reputation as a top class supplier.

So, unless there is reason to think that the whole
organisation is in deep trouble and cutting corners badly, a
recommendation not to use them may tell you more about the
recommenders than about ON Semi.



       Russell McMahon


2007\11\05@193007 by Forrest W. Christian

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face
Bob Blick wrote:
> Any chance they are counterfeit parts?
Seconded.  I had a bunch of L6202's I bought from a supplier which
exhibited something like a 50% failure rate.   The problem went away
when I switched to a known good source.

Also, in the process of troubleshooting this, ST was very happy to help
and look at my design to determine why it was failing.   Have you asked  
Onsemi about why these parts are failing?

-forrest

2007\11\05@202003 by Xiaofan Chen

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On 11/6/07, Russell McMahon <@spam@apptechKILLspamspamparadise.net.nz> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Ok, I just checked the local component engineer and he told
me more likely it is due to delivery issues.

Xiaofan

2007\11\06@092508 by Mike Hord

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I will address several messages, one at a time, here.

The part, incidentally, is a high-speed analog mux- the NLAST4599.

>From Dave VanHorn:

> Having been in similar situations with other vendors, are you sure you
> are within the parts ratings?

Fairly sure- run down of the application follows:
It's an analog mux, two channel, switch the positive rail of a 2:3 voltage
divider from the output of a 0-5V DAC to floating.  VCC is also 5V, but
the selector input is driven by 3.3V logic.  The switching rate is
non-existant; perhaps two pulses of 250 us or so long every several
hundred milliseconds.  It's a high speed mux, so no real worries there.
The output of the divider is buffered by an op-amp, which has NOT been
dying on any of these (10, now, with more examples in the offing) boards.

Spehro observed:
> Stuff happens, and because of liability concerns you may have
> trouble getting them to admit it.

Agreed; a couple of years ago we had a problem with the wirebonds in
Sony CCD modules on this same product.  It took a long time to get them
to admit to it and even longer to get them to stop shipping us bad product.
They just kept adding lot numbers to the "bad" list after they shipped them.

Bob Blick:

>Any chance they are counterfeit parts?

Absolutely!  It wouldn't be the first time we got counterfeit parts
from this CM.
This is a topic already on the radar to be pursued.

>From Russell:

> Examples of the general situation (almost) always help.
> Sometimes people may spot an inobvious fault cause if you
> are free to divulge enough information.

See above.  I don't think I should go further into detail than that; it's not
MY IP to give away.  And, at the risk of dipping into hubris, we have enough
engineering expertise here that a flaw should be found easily enough.

> ON Semi are usually regarded as a quality supplier.

That's part of what I was looking for- a general statement of confidence in ON.
I'd prefer someone to say "I just saw an article about a huge counterfeiting
ring specializing in ONSemi parts" or "You know, we've had a strangely high
failure rate of ON components lately, too".

Google, FWIW, has very little to say about this.

Forrest asked:

>Have you asked Onsemi about why these parts are failing?

Not yet- this started yesterday.  Some of that, at least, will be handled by
our supplier- since they are a CM, we buy WORKING boards from them.
If the boards AREN'T working, that's their problem, and they need to sort it
with their suppliers.  Of course, without being privy to the ins and outs of
our design, they need our help, too, but a lot of the supplier comms goes
to them.

Mike H.

2007\11\06@094739 by David VanHorn

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I've seen problems with known legit chips from good vendors.

Modem chips that had wierd noise on the output when squelched (should
be silent!) from TI. TI eventually admitted that they'd moved the fab
and hadn't had any luck producing good chips, so they shipped ones
that were almost ok.

Modem chips that violated the applicable standards from Rockwell,
vendor said "too bad, so sad"..

Printer controller chip also from rockwell, a rommed micro to drive a
slip printer, which had a firmware bug that resulted in really bad
drive to the print solenoids.
They never owned up to the problem, but they told us unofficially that
the problem wasn't on our circuit board, and it wasn't in the print
mechanism. (that left their chip...)

I've had problems in chips that were cross licensed, or where they
bought the mask from someone else, and had issues that they didn't
understand because they didn't design the part. Sometimes there are
constraints in the original manufacturer's data sheet that don't make
it to the later or cross licensed versions.

2007\11\06@100213 by Mike Hord

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> I've seen problems with known legit chips from good vendors.

Agreed- just in the last 18 months (my limit of true industry
experience) I've seen

- the aforementioned Sony CCDs with questionable wirebond
quality;
- oscillators from ECS which were not properly filtering harmonics
at given temperatures, causing all kinds of clock wildness;
- laser diodes from Rohm which behaved in at least one
questionable manner (internal reflections which were not present
in past lots, and possibly a recent increase in temperature
sensitivity over past lots).

Perhaps we should start a log of such events at PICList.com?
Of course, that may expose James to the wrath of large companies
who certainly wouldn't want their failures broadcasted.

Mike

2007\11\06@120210 by John Chung

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--- Mike Hord <RemoveMEmike.hordTakeThisOuTspamgmail.com> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

I personally share my thoughts on poor IC :)

John

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2007\11\06@164357 by alan smith

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I agree with all thats been said...including the counterfit parts.  Unless you send some back to the factory...and thats an option....you might never know if they were real ON parts.

Russell McMahon <spamBeGoneapptechspamBeGonespamparadise.net.nz> wrote:  > We have a small batch of ON Semi ICs failing in an
> unusually
> short field deployment time and I'm wondering if anyone
> has
> encountered general or specific issues with ON's parts.
> They
> of course have nothing to say about it.



Examples of the general situation (almost) always help.
Sometimes people may spot an inobvious fault cause if you
are free to divulge enough information.

ON Semi are usually regarded as a quality supplier.


Russell


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