I'm finally testing my dirk bike ECU. It worked wonderfully till a point,
where the engine turned off and didn't want to start anymore. I thought it
was maybe a bad/cold soldering, so I just replaced it with the original and
didn't bother anymore for that day.
But when back in the lab, the ECU worked! I made a lot of tests and my ECU
proved to work absolutely perfectly, even when hammered. ;) So what was it
that made it suddenly stop working?
I immediately recalled where it happened (I even have GPS logs): I was in a
dried river bed full of rocks, and a thick gray cable was making impossible
for me to pass. I stopped in front of it, the engine turned off but I thought
it was just because of carburetion problems (too low idle), etc..
I noticed it was a very high tension/current cable that fell down from a
tower. Regardless of that, it felt natural for me to grab it with my hand,
raise it, and thus push the bike beyond the obstacle. Then I tried to start
the engine but, as said, it didn't run, so (as I wasn't alone and everybody
was in a hurry) I quickly swapped the ECU with the original, and the engine
restarted.
I am thinking to return there but it means to do 200 kms alone.. it's not
safe to do it off road, but thanks to the GPS log I found a way to do 99% of
those 200km via asphalt, and I will return there to clear my doubts.
I tried to disturb the ECU in my lab with 230V 2000W appliances, but
evidently that wasn't enough. I will have to return there, near that cable,
and see if the fault is repeatable, also because I've been using it for
many hours today and it worked flawlessly.
But as it's very distant from home, I want to make 1 trip and 2 jobs: I want
to bring with me a 2nd prototype, with a supposed workaround/fix/improvement
in place, and see if this new prototype is immune enough to that terribly noisy
cable.
Will shielding help? It probably won't, as it's just 50Hz magnetic field I think,
but I wish to ask you.
Will placing the Xtal nearer to the MPU help (currently 10mm), as well as moving
the Xtal caps to the bottom of the PCB board, so they're as near as possible to
the Xtal and MPU too? (currently the caps are on the same PCB side of the Xtal
and MPU and are comprehensibly not really close (another 10mm) but, worse, their
ground return doesn't go into the MPU Vss pin, but to the opposite side of the
PCB). Can this have made a difference?
What else would you make to ensure maximum immunity to the noise coming from
a very high tension/current cable that is there although it should not be there?
It's a chance I have to make my circuit more robust and gain experience before
they fix that cable (because it can't be there, it's dangerous, and I will notify
the local police about it then, i.e. hopefully tomorrow morning already).
Oh yes this time I won't touch it, I will reach it near with my bike and ECU but
not grab it anymore. If it was the cause of the malfunction, it indeed did it even
at 1 meter of distance, so I'll do it from a small distance.
Interesting. As a person deeply involved in computational
electromagnetics, I don't think the high current line caused the ECU
to malfunction. Surely it's possible but it depends on your board
content and angle to that transmission line thus it looks like a long
shot to me.
There are lots of parameters to be considered in your case but a 7-8A
current radiates quite a lot of noise inversely proportional to square
of the distance and you probably immersed your board to this
radiation from various angles at close proximity. If it's not breaking
down, it's not breaking down. Without knowing the characteristics of
that line you mention (it can't be a 384kV transmission line..), I
believe those rocks you mentioned might be the source of this
malfunction. It's not that common actually but an occuring phenomena.
DOI: 10.1023/A:1021199018553 (Journal of Mining Science)
>
> Howdy,
>
> I'm finally testing my dirk bike ECU. It worked wonderfully till a point,
> where the engine turned off and didn't want to start anymore. I thought it
> was maybe a bad/cold soldering, so I just replaced it with the original and
> didn't bother anymore for that day.
>
> But when back in the lab, the ECU worked! I made a lot of tests and my ECU
> proved to work absolutely perfectly, even when hammered. ;) So what was it
> that made it suddenly stop working?
>
> I immediately recalled where it happened (I even have GPS logs): I was in a
> dried river bed full of rocks, and a thick gray cable was making impossible
> for me to pass. I stopped in front of it, the engine turned off but I thought
> it was just because of carburetion problems (too low idle), etc..
>
> I noticed it was a very high tension/current cable that fell down from a
> tower. Regardless of that, it felt natural for me to grab it with my hand,
> raise it, and thus push the bike beyond the obstacle. Then I tried to start
> the engine but, as said, it didn't run, so (as I wasn't alone and everybody
> was in a hurry) I quickly swapped the ECU with the original, and the engine
> restarted.
>
> I am thinking to return there but it means to do 200 kms alone.. it's not
> safe to do it off road, but thanks to the GPS log I found a way to do 99% of
> those 200km via asphalt, and I will return there to clear my doubts.
>
> I tried to disturb the ECU in my lab with 230V 2000W appliances, but
> evidently that wasn't enough. I will have to return there, near that cable,
> and see if the fault is repeatable, also because I've been using it for
> many hours today and it worked flawlessly.
>
> But as it's very distant from home, I want to make 1 trip and 2 jobs: I want
> to bring with me a 2nd prototype, with a supposed workaround/fix/improvement
> in place, and see if this new prototype is immune enough to that terribly noisy
> cable.
>
> Will shielding help? It probably won't, as it's just 50Hz magnetic field I think,
> but I wish to ask you.
>
> Will placing the Xtal nearer to the MPU help (currently 10mm), as well as moving
> the Xtal caps to the bottom of the PCB board, so they're as near as possible to
> the Xtal and MPU too? (currently the caps are on the same PCB side of the Xtal
> and MPU and are comprehensibly not really close (another 10mm) but, worse, their
> ground return doesn't go into the MPU Vss pin, but to the opposite side of the
> PCB). Can this have made a difference?
>
> What else would you make to ensure maximum immunity to the noise coming from
> a very high tension/current cable that is there although it should not be there?
>
> It's a chance I have to make my circuit more robust and gain experience before
> they fix that cable (because it can't be there, it's dangerous, and I will notify
> the local police about it then, i.e. hopefully tomorrow morning already).
>
> Oh yes this time I won't touch it, I will reach it near with my bike and ECU but
> not grab it anymore. If it was the cause of the malfunction, it indeed did it even
> at 1 meter of distance, so I'll do it from a small distance.
>
> Cheers,
> Mario
>
>
>Howdy,
>
>I'm finally testing my dirk bike ECU. It worked wonderfully till a point,
>where the engine turned off and didn't want to start anymore. I thought it
>was maybe a bad/cold soldering, so I just replaced it with the original and
>didn't bother anymore for that day.
>
>But when back in the lab, the ECU worked! I made a lot of tests and my ECU
>proved to work absolutely perfectly, even when hammered. ;) So what was it
>that made it suddenly stop working?
>
>I immediately recalled where it happened (I even have GPS logs): I was in a
>dried river bed full of rocks, and a thick gray cable was making impossible
>for me to pass. I stopped in front of it, the engine turned off but I thought
>it was just because of carburetion problems (too low idle), etc..
>
>I noticed it was a very high tension/current cable that fell down from a
>tower. Regardless of that, it felt natural for me to grab it with my hand,
>raise it, and thus push the bike beyond the obstacle. Then I tried to start
>the engine but, as said, it didn't run, so (as I wasn't alone and everybody
>was in a hurry) I quickly swapped the ECU with the original, and the engine
>restarted.
>
>I am thinking to return there but it means to do 200 kms alone.. it's not
>safe to do it off road, but thanks to the GPS log I found a way to do 99% of
>those 200km via asphalt, and I will return there to clear my doubts.
>
>I tried to disturb the ECU in my lab with 230V 2000W appliances, but
>evidently that wasn't enough. I will have to return there, near that cable,
>and see if the fault is repeatable, also because I've been using it for
>many hours today and it worked flawlessly.
>
>But as it's very distant from home, I want to make 1 trip and 2 jobs: I want
>to bring with me a 2nd prototype, with a supposed workaround/fix/improvement
>in place, and see if this new prototype is immune enough to that terribly noisy
>cable.
>
>Will shielding help? It probably won't, as it's just 50Hz magnetic field I think,
>but I wish to ask you.
>
>Will placing the Xtal nearer to the MPU help (currently 10mm), as well as moving
>the Xtal caps to the bottom of the PCB board, so they're as near as possible to
>the Xtal and MPU too? (currently the caps are on the same PCB side of the Xtal
>and MPU and are comprehensibly not really close (another 10mm) but, worse, their
>ground return doesn't go into the MPU Vss pin, but to the opposite side of the
>PCB). Can this have made a difference?
>
>What else would you make to ensure maximum immunity to the noise coming from
>a very high tension/current cable that is there although it should not be there?
>
>It's a chance I have to make my circuit more robust and gain experience before
>they fix that cable (because it can't be there, it's dangerous, and I will notify
>the local police about it then, i.e. hopefully tomorrow morning already).
>
>Oh yes this time I won't touch it, I will reach it near with my bike and ECU but
>not grab it anymore. If it was the cause of the malfunction, it indeed did it even
>at 1 meter of distance, so I'll do it from a small distance.
>
>Cheers,
>Mario
>
Should not the owner of the cable been notified? I know in our area, the power company would have been very happy to know that there was an issue with their equipment, both from the viewpoint of good service to their customers, and to eliminate a safety hazard where someone could have been killed. Since, you have the location, it could still be reported, even anonymously. A call to the law enforcement agency of the area would work, they have access to response contacts.
>> I noticed it was a very high tension/current cable that fell down from a
>> tower.
On 6/11/2012 2:14 PM, Electron wrote:
>
> I noticed it was a very high tension/current cable that fell down from a
> tower. Regardless of that, it felt natural for me to grab it with my hand,
> raise it, and thus push the bike beyond the obstacle. Then I tried to start
> the engine but, as said, it didn't run, so (as I wasn't alone and everybody
> was in a hurry) I quickly swapped the ECU with the original, and the engine
> restarted.
>
It likely was not a power cable, maybe it was a RF transmission line for something. High tension wires are generally not insulated, just bare wire because insulation isn't needed with the way the cables are routed and adding insulation would only add cost and make repairs more difficult. If it was an RF transmission line then it very well could have harmed the controller as that has a lot more interference than a power line at 60/50hz, some remote areas run cables to high points where an antenna can get the signal out.
I suppose it must be said. NEVER TOUCH A DOWNED WIRE. If you aren't an engineer for the company that owns it you have no idea whether or not it is live. People get killed doing this. I have been in the position of trying to prevent them from touching those wires ( CERT team) and dealing with the consequences (first responder).
Mark Hanchey <markKILLspampixeltrickery.com> wrote:
>On 6/11/2012 2:14 PM, Electron wrote:
>>
>> I noticed it was a very high tension/current cable that fell down from a
>> tower. Regardless of that, it felt natural for me to grab it with my hand,
>> raise it, and thus push the bike beyond the obstacle. Then I tried to start
>> the engine but, as said, it didn't run, so (as I wasn't alone and everybody
>> was in a hurry) I quickly swapped the ECU with the original, and the engine
>> restarted.
>>
>
>It likely was not a power cable, maybe it was a RF transmission line for
>something. High tension wires are generally not insulated, just bare
>wire because insulation isn't needed with the way the cables are routed
>and adding insulation would only add cost and make repairs more
>difficult. If it was an RF transmission line then it very well could
>have harmed the controller as that has a lot more interference than a
>power line at 60/50hz, some remote areas run cables to high points where
>an antenna can get the signal out.
>
>Mark
>
>
<< It's a chance I have to make my circuit more robust and gain experience before
they fix that cable (because it can't be there, it's dangerous, and I will notify
the local police about it then, i.e. hopefully tomorrow morning already). >>
At 22.09 2012.06.11, you wrote:
>Should not the owner of the cable been notified? I know in our area, the
>power company would have been very happy to know that there was an issue
>with their equipment, both from the viewpoint of good service to their
>customers, and to eliminate a safety hazard where someone could have
>been killed. Since, you have the location, it could still be reported,
>even anonymously. A call to the law enforcement agency of the area would
>work, they have access to response contacts.
>>> I noticed it was a very high tension/current cable that fell down from a
>>> tower.
>>
>
>Electron <.....electron2k4KILLspam.....infinito.it> wrote:
>
>>
>>Howdy,
>>
>>I'm finally testing my dirk bike ECU. It worked wonderfully till a point,
>>where the engine turned off and didn't want to start anymore. I thought it
>>was maybe a bad/cold soldering, so I just replaced it with the original and
>>didn't bother anymore for that day.
>>
>>But when back in the lab, the ECU worked! I made a lot of tests and my ECU
>>proved to work absolutely perfectly, even when hammered. ;) So what was it
>>that made it suddenly stop working?
>>
>>I immediately recalled where it happened (I even have GPS logs): I was in a
>>dried river bed full of rocks, and a thick gray cable was making impossible
>>for me to pass. I stopped in front of it, the engine turned off but I thought
>>it was just because of carburetion problems (too low idle), etc..
>>
>>I noticed it was a very high tension/current cable that fell down from a
>>tower. Regardless of that, it felt natural for me to grab it with my hand,
>>raise it, and thus push the bike beyond the obstacle. Then I tried to start
>>the engine but, as said, it didn't run, so (as I wasn't alone and everybody
>>was in a hurry) I quickly swapped the ECU with the original, and the engine
>>restarted.
>>
>>I am thinking to return there but it means to do 200 kms alone.. it's not
>>safe to do it off road, but thanks to the GPS log I found a way to do 99% of
>>those 200km via asphalt, and I will return there to clear my doubts.
>>
>>I tried to disturb the ECU in my lab with 230V 2000W appliances, but
>>evidently that wasn't enough. I will have to return there, near that cable,
>>and see if the fault is repeatable, also because I've been using it for
>>many hours today and it worked flawlessly.
>>
>>But as it's very distant from home, I want to make 1 trip and 2 jobs: I want
>>to bring with me a 2nd prototype, with a supposed workaround/fix/improvement
>>in place, and see if this new prototype is immune enough to that
>terribly noisy
>>cable.
>>
>>Will shielding help? It probably won't, as it's just 50Hz magnetic
>field I think,
>>but I wish to ask you.
>>
>>Will placing the Xtal nearer to the MPU help (currently 10mm), as
>well as moving
>>the Xtal caps to the bottom of the PCB board, so they're as near as
>possible to
>>the Xtal and MPU too? (currently the caps are on the same PCB side of the Xtal
>>and MPU and are comprehensibly not really close (another 10mm) but,
>worse, their
>>ground return doesn't go into the MPU Vss pin, but to the opposite side of the
>>PCB). Can this have made a difference?
>>
>>What else would you make to ensure maximum immunity to the noise coming from
>>a very high tension/current cable that is there although it should
>not be there?
>>
>>It's a chance I have to make my circuit more robust and gain experience before
>>they fix that cable (because it can't be there, it's dangerous, and I
>will notify
>>the local police about it then, i.e. hopefully tomorrow morning already).
>>
>>Oh yes this time I won't touch it, I will reach it near with my bike
>and ECU but
>>not grab it anymore. If it was the cause of the malfunction, it
>indeed did it even
>>at 1 meter of distance, so I'll do it from a small distance.
>>
>>Cheers,
>>Mario
>>
At 00.03 2012.06.12, you wrote:
>On 6/11/2012 2:14 PM, Electron wrote:
>>
>> I noticed it was a very high tension/current cable that fell down from a
>> tower. Regardless of that, it felt natural for me to grab it with my hand,
>> raise it, and thus push the bike beyond the obstacle. Then I tried to start
>> the engine but, as said, it didn't run, so (as I wasn't alone and everybody
>> was in a hurry) I quickly swapped the ECU with the original, and the engine
>> restarted.
>>
>
>It likely was not a power cable, maybe it was a RF transmission line for
>something. High tension wires are generally not insulated, just bare
>wire because insulation isn't needed with the way the cables are routed
>and adding insulation would only add cost and make repairs more
>difficult. If it was an RF transmission line then it very well could
>have harmed the controller as that has a lot more interference than a
>power line at 60/50hz, some remote areas run cables to high points where
>an antenna can get the signal out.
Yup, the suspect it was a RF transmission line is strong, I will take photos
of it anyway and will post them here later today or tomorrow.
<< It's a chance I have to make my circuit more robust and gain experience before
they fix that cable (because it can't be there, it's dangerous, and I will notify
the local police about it then, i.e. hopefully tomorrow morning already). >>
At 22.09 2012.06.11, you wrote:
>Should not the owner of the cable been notified? I know in our area, the
>power company would have been very happy to know that there was an issue
>with their equipment, both from the viewpoint of good service to their
>customers, and to eliminate a safety hazard where someone could have
>been killed. Since, you have the location, it could still be reported,
>even anonymously. A call to the law enforcement agency of the area would
>work, they have access to response contacts.
>>> I noticed it was a very high tension/current cable that fell down from a
>>> tower.
>>
>
At 15.39 2012.06.12, you wrote:
>On Tue, Jun 12, 2012 at 2:19 AM, Electron <electron2k4spam_OUTinfinito.it> wrote:
>
>> At 21.52 2012.06.11, you wrote:
>> >I'm glad you survived.
>>
>> It looked like it was insulated. :D
>>
>> Famous last words... :~{
I went back there.. after A LOT of km's, I found the wire repaired (i.e. back up).
Yes it was a RF cable probably.
Anyhow, no sign of malfunction from that distance.
Km's useful anyway to test even more the system.. but.. argh, I could have tested it near my home then. :(
I tried then to replicate the problem in the lab placing two working (calling each other) GSM phones upon the ECU, but they caused no problem.
Well I've collected 20 hours and 700km's of tests on a prototype with doubtful solderings, I guess I can affirm the design is reliable now anyway. :D
>
> I tried then to replicate the problem in the lab placing two working (calling
> each other) GSM phones upon the ECU, but they caused no problem. Well I've
> collected 20 hours and 700km's of tests on a prototype with doubtful solderings,
> I guess I can affirm the design is reliable now anyway. :D
>
> Cheers,
> Mario
>
If this is a commercial product you should really test it for radiated susceptibility at an EMC lab.
/Ruben
==============================
Ruben Jönsson
AB Liros Electronic
Box 9124, 200 39 Malmö, Sweden
TEL INT +46 40142078
FAX INT +46 40947388 @spam@rubenKILLspampp.sbbs.se
==============================
It must have been turned off otherwise you would probably not be here to
report, that if still might cause some
electromagnetic effects is possible I suppose - After all its a
giant antenna cable - what frequency might it tune into? 8Hz?
> I suppose it must be said. NEVER TOUCH A DOWNED WIRE. If you aren't an
> engineer for the company that owns it you have no idea whether or not it is
> live. People get killed doing this. I have been in the position of trying
> to prevent them from touching those wires ( CERT team) and dealing with the
> consequences (first responder).
>
> Mark Hanchey <RemoveMEmarkTakeThisOuTpixeltrickery.com> wrote:
>
> >On 6/11/2012 2:14 PM, Electron wrote:
> >>
> >> I noticed it was a very high tension/current cable that fell down from a
> >> tower. Regardless of that, it felt natural for me to grab it with my
> hand,
> >> raise it, and thus push the bike beyond the obstacle. Then I tried to
> start
> >> the engine but, as said, it didn't run, so (as I wasn't alone and
> everybody
> >> was in a hurry) I quickly swapped the ECU with the original, and the
> engine
> >> restarted.
> >>
> >
> >It likely was not a power cable, maybe it was a RF transmission line for
> >something. High tension wires are generally not insulated, just bare
> >wire because insulation isn't needed with the way the cables are routed
> >and adding insulation would only add cost and make repairs more
> >difficult. If it was an RF transmission line then it very well could
> >have harmed the controller as that has a lot more interference than a
> >power line at 60/50hz, some remote areas run cables to high points where
> >an antenna can get the signal out.
> >
> >Mark
> >
> >
infinito.it> wrote:
