Post by thread:[EE] New regulations re transport of Lithium batte

Anyone transporting Lithium batteries of any sort or using them in environments where a fire would be "inconvenient" should read this. http://www.ulbi.com/product-display.asp?ID=50 Federal Regulations December 15th http://www.ulbi.com/whitepapers/RSPA_Interim_Final_Rule_Lithium_Batteries_12-15-04.pdf Pages 75209 & 75280 (a few pages into the 10 page report) make sobering reading. Lithium battery incidents happen often enough to be of concern. Once one cell ignites all will generally follow. If there's a pallet load (up to 30,000 batteries!) you have "a problem". If there is a single battery pack involved you may still have a downed airliner. This applies variably to Li and Li-ion primary and secondary cells of a range of types - see report. Some Li cells are 'safe" but you should be aware of what types you are using. RM ____________________________________________

Russell McMahon wrote: > Anyone transporting Lithium batteries of any sort or using them in > environments where a fire would be "inconvenient" should read this. > > http://www.ulbi.com/product-display.asp?ID=50 > > Federal Regulations December 15th > > > http://www.ulbi.com/whitepapers/RSPA_Interim_Final_Rule_Lithium_Batteries_12-15-04.pdf > > Actually, it only covers PRIMARY cells, i.e. those used like flashlight batteries then are tossed. They exempt secondary (rechargeable) for the time being. Primary cells are rarely made anymore by anybody except Tadiran (Israel). {Quote hidden}> > Pages 75209 & 75280 (a few pages into the 10 page report) make > sobering reading. > Lithium battery incidents happen often enough to be of concern. Once > one cell ignites all will generally follow. > If there's a pallet load (up to 30,000 batteries!) you have "a > problem". If there is a single battery pack involved you may still > have a downed airliner. > This applies variably to Li and Li-ion primary and secondary cells of > a range of types - see report. Some Li cells are 'safe" but you should > be aware of what types you are using. > The second paper clearly exempts rechargeable Li-Ion cells, like those used in cellphones. But I'd suspect its only a matter of time. - - Interesting item happened on the way to finishing my Offender Anklet design. The battery packager (makes the battery paks for my client) required a schematic of the charger and the charger chip before they would make paks without the overcharge PCB (a thin PCB that is installed in the pak to prevent overcharge, more or less). They have approved my design, but the prototype paks all have overcharge PCBs anyway. --Bob > > > RM > ______________________________________________

On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 15:55:58 -0700, you wrote: >Russell McMahon wrote: > >> Anyone transporting Lithium batteries of any sort or using them in >> environments where a fire would be "inconvenient" should read this. >> >> http://www.ulbi.com/product-display.asp?ID=50 >> >> Federal Regulations December 15th >> >> >> http://www.ulbi.com/whitepapers/RSPA_Interim_Final_Rule_Lithium_Batteries_12-15-04.pdf >> >> >Actually, it only covers PRIMARY cells, i.e. those used like flashlight >batteries then are tossed. They exempt secondary (rechargeable) >for the time being. Primary cells are rarely made anymore by anybody >except Tadiran (Israel). Primary lithium cells are VERY common - coin cells, camera type batteries and batteries used in long-life things like telemetry transmitters & electronic utility meters, and for memory backup/RTC applications. ____________________________________________

I forgot about memory backup, etc. Sorry. In any case, the rechargeable ones will be examined next. There are a LOT of people that make bad rechargeable cells. There needs to be better controls over the battery industry. --Bob Mike Harrison wrote: {Quote hidden}>On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 15:55:58 -0700, you wrote: > > > >>Russell McMahon wrote: >> >> >> >>>Anyone transporting Lithium batteries of any sort or using them in >>>environments where a fire would be "inconvenient" should read this. >>> >>> http://www.ulbi.com/product-display.asp?ID=50 >>> >>>Federal Regulations December 15th >>> >>> >>>http://www.ulbi.com/whitepapers/RSPA_Interim_Final_Rule_Lithium_Batteries_12-15-04.pdf >>> >>> >>> >>> >>Actually, it only covers PRIMARY cells, i.e. those used like flashlight >>batteries then are tossed. They exempt secondary (rechargeable) >>for the time being. Primary cells are rarely made anymore by anybody >>except Tadiran (Israel). >> >> > >Primary lithium cells are VERY common - coin cells, camera type batteries and batteries used in >long-life things like telemetry transmitters & electronic utility meters, and for memory backup/RTC >applications. > >_____________________________________________

----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Axtell" <spam_OUTengineerTakeThisOuTcotse.net> Subject: Re: [EE] New regulations re transport of Lithium batteries by air - effective December 29th > In any case, the rechargeable ones will be examined next. There are a > LOT of people that > make bad rechargeable cells. There needs to be better controls over the > battery industry. I get the distinct impression that somehow the industry made an impression on the regulators a few years back. Several years ago I went looking at the SDS's for rechargeable Lithium Ion cells. The SDS's were pretty terrifying. A year or so later I looked again, and without exception they all pretty much said nothing more than it's OK to ship these things. There are all sorts of risks with Lithium Ion, especially around recharging. Apparently, those risks "don't count" since you won't be recharging them when you are shipping them. I thought SDS's covered more than just the shippers, but as best I could tell, that's all that mattered to the new, improved SDS's. --McD ____________________________________________

>> Anyone transporting Lithium batteries of any sort or using them in >> environments where a fire would be "inconvenient" should read this. >> >> http://www.ulbi.com/product-display.asp?ID=50 >> >> Federal Regulations December 15th >> >> >> http://www.ulbi.com/whitepapers/RSPA_Interim_Final_Rule_Lithium_Batteries_12-15-04.pdf > Actually, it only covers PRIMARY cells, i.e. those used like flashlight > batteries then are tossed. They exempt secondary (rechargeable) > for the time being. Primary cells are rarely made anymore by anybody > except Tadiran (Israel). The manufacturer's website is broader brush than the Federal regulation. And I'm pretty sure that what the Fed site said about Lithium primary cells applies in many cases to secondary cells, even though that may not have been their formal focus. The manufacturer mentioned Lithium-Ion - and few would doubt their capability to do bad things. The fed comments about lithium fires was the scariest part. Once you get one cell burning it will generally burn the whole battery. and any others in suitably close proximity. This would apply to any battery with metallic Lithium in it that wasn't built specifically to avoid this. Such precautions normally involved extra cost, size and weight so would tend to be avoided. RM ____________________________________________

At 01:13 PM 12/23/2004 +1300, you wrote: >>In any case, the rechargeable ones will be examined next. There are a LOT >>of people that >>make bad rechargeable cells. There needs to be better controls over the >>battery industry. > >There are strict regulations about carrying batteries in airline checked >luggage but it probably happens on every flight. My family thought the >requirement was strange until I pointed out why. I have had several "very >hot pockets" over the years from carrying cells which have shorted out >with coins etc. The same thing happening in a suitcase in a cargo hold >could be fatal for all. The last time I shipped 1,000 or so dry cells from Asia by air (in product boxes and properly insulated) I got endless hassles. We eventually got them on the flight but a *lot* of documentation was required. The batteries in carry-on seems to be a don't ask-don't tell sort of thing. I can't imagine travelling with a 9-yr-old on a 13 hour flight without enough batteries to keep the MP3 player and Gameboy SP operating for at least half that time! Best regards, Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward" .....speffKILLspam@spam@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com ____________________________________________

Russell McMahon wrote: {Quote hidden}>>> Anyone transporting Lithium batteries of any sort or using them in >>> environments where a fire would be "inconvenient" should read this. >>> >>> http://www.ulbi.com/product-display.asp?ID=50 >>> >>> Federal Regulations December 15th >>> >>> >>> http://www.ulbi.com/whitepapers/RSPA_Interim_Final_Rule_Lithium_Batteries_12-15-04.pdf >>> >> > >> Actually, it only covers PRIMARY cells, i.e. those used like >> flashlight batteries then are tossed. They exempt secondary >> (rechargeable) >> for the time being. Primary cells are rarely made anymore by anybody >> except Tadiran (Israel). > > > The manufacturer's website is broader brush than the Federal > regulation. And I'm pretty sure that what the Fed site said about > Lithium primary cells applies in many cases to secondary cells, even > though that may not have been their formal focus. The manufacturer > mentioned Lithium-Ion - and few would doubt their capability to do bad > things. The fed comments about lithium fires was the scariest part. > Once you get one cell burning it will generally burn the whole > battery. and any others in suitably close proximity. This would apply > to any battery with metallic Lithium in it that wasn't built > specifically to avoid this. Such precautions normally involved extra > cost, size and weight so would tend to be avoided. > Don't get me wrong, Russell- I am concerned about safety. I personally favor NiMH.But unfortunately, Li-Ion can REALLY pack a lot of power in a small space. They are pretty remarkable. --Bob -- Note: Attachments must be sent to attachKILLspamengineer.cotse.net, and MAY delay replies to this message. 520-219-2363 ____________________________________________

--- Russell McMahon <.....apptechKILLspam.....paradise.net.nz> wrote: > The manufacturer's website is broader brush than the Federal > regulation. And > I'm pretty sure that what the Fed site said about Lithium primary > cells > applies in many cases to secondary cells, even though that may not > have been > their formal focus. The manufacturer mentioned Lithium-Ion - and few > would > doubt their capability to do bad things. The fed comments about > lithium > fires was the scariest part. Once you get one cell burning it will > generally > burn the whole battery. and any others in suitably close proximity. > This > would apply to any battery with metallic Lithium in it that wasn't > built > specifically to avoid this. Such precautions normally involved extra > cost, > size and weight so would tend to be avoided. > Well if you want the specific danger of standard chemistry lithium ion secondary cells.. let me explain. It's NOT the Lithium that's the danger actually. This is a common falacy poeple have. The electrolyte in the cells is volatile (IE combustable) that's the first problem, the second is the 'ION' part. When cell temperature reaches above 100C the common ionic compound used in the cell decomposes. This compound happens to be CoO3. What does it decompose into? CoO and O2.. oxegen. This is where the real danger is. If one battery cell is shorted in a 'palette' the fire will continue irreguardless weather you have an oxidizer or not because it's a self oxidizing reaction. Several demonstrations done by hobbyists who use these will make you realize just how dumb some people are. They were done UNDER WATER, IE no oxegen source, and still burned like a raging inferno consuming the entire battery in seconds. The most common chemistry is also the most dangerous, the other chemistries although more stable aren't much better and have lower cell capacity and performance. Over discharging the cells IE below there minimum voltage is not safe either, the cell will decompose if you overdischarge it, again leaving you with O2 and a volatile substance mixed together. It's just waiting to go BOOM (which I have several video's of happening it's quite spectacular). There is a cell chemistry that is 1) very safe by comparison, 2) does not use cobalt. Chargers for these are more like the ones people have used for NiCd's and Lead Acid. However you still need to terminate the charge, it will mess up the cell overcharging them as well, however they won't do the big fire ball in your cell phone trick. They use a transitional metal IE iron or vanadium, instead of cobalt and use a phosphate affixed to it. This seems to make a much stabler cell at much higher temperatures. Instead of 120C death temperature it's more like 1000C before decomposition is seen. However if your battery is that hot you have other more pressing problems. The chemistry is called Saphion. I don't think you will see it too soon on the market sadly. Too many 'patent' problems with it. Stephen R. Phillips __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free! http://my.yahoo.com ____________________________________________

At 03:18 PM 12/23/2004 +1300, you wrote: >>The batteries in carry-on seems to be a don't ask-don't tell sort of thing. > >A year ago the airlines all said you could carry batteries in carry on >luggage. They didn't specify any precautions. > > > RM Korean Air has prohibited batteries for over 10 years (they really do make you remove all the batteries from everything you own, at least they did the last time I travelled on them. Even AAA cells. You get them back at the end of the flight-- they just put them into an envelope). Here are the Canadian regulations for carry-on batteries: http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/commerce/DangerousGoods/regoverview/passlugg/menu.htm Spare batteries must be individually protected so as to prevent short circuits and carried in carry-on baggage only. In addition, each spare battery must not exceed the following quantities: * for lithium metal or lithium alloy batteries, a lithium content of not more than 2 grams; or * for lithium ion batteries, an aggregate equivalent lithium content of not more than 8 grams. Best regards, Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward" EraseMEspeffspam_OUTTakeThisOuTinterlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com ____________________________________________

At 03:18 PM 12/23/2004 +1300, you wrote: >>The batteries in carry-on seems to be a don't ask-don't tell sort of thing. > >A year ago the airlines all said you could carry batteries in carry on >luggage. They didn't specify any precautions. > > > RM PS, for freight, the relevant item for "safe" types of batteries (not lithium etc.) is special exemption 130: (there are also issues with the quantity of cells) "130 For other than a dry battery specifically covered by another entry in the § 172.101 Table, "Batteries, dry" are not subject to the requirements of this subchapter when they are securely packaged and offered for transportation in a manner that prevents the dangerous evolution of heat (for example, by the effective insulation of exposed terminals) and protects against short circuits." Best regards, Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward" speffspam_OUTinterlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com ___________________________________________

In message <003e01c4e884$3de213d0$d201a8c0@y2k> Russell McMahon <@spam@apptechKILLspamparadise.net.nz> wrote: > I have had several "very > hot pockets" over the years from carrying cells which have shorted out with > coins etc. Never heard of masking tape then? If I don't have the original packaging for the cells, I put a bit of masking tape over one of the terminals (usually the positive terminal). No complete circuit, no current flow, no batteries "venting with flame" in one's pockets :) As for lithium coin cells, I don't put them in my pockets - that and I usually individually pack them in Ziploc bags, even if they are still in the original packaging. Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, KILLspamphilpemKILLspamphilpem.me.uk | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... This is 1 FM. - Quick Mr. Worf close the bloomin' hailing frequencies. ____________________________________________