Searching \ for '[EE] Money talks' in subject line. ()
Make payments with PayPal - it's fast, free and secure! Help us get a faster server
FAQ page: www.piclist.com/techref/index.htm?key=money+talks
Search entire site for: 'Money talks'.

Exact match. Not showing close matches.
PICList Thread
'[EE] Money talks'
2007\01\11@100429 by Peter P.

picon face

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070111/ap_on_hi_te/spy_coins

I wonder how they get the signal out. Assuming the lids are metal and insulated
they could be used as 'dipole' halves. Or use a microwave frequency and resonate
the disks as is ?

Peter P.


2007\01\11@111530 by David VanHorn

picon face
On 1/11/07, Peter P. <spam_OUTplpeter2006TakeThisOuTspamyahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070111/ap_on_hi_te/spy_coins
>
> I wonder how they get the signal out. Assuming the lids are metal and
> insulated
> they could be used as 'dipole' halves. Or use a microwave frequency and
> resonate
> the disks as is ?


The latter.. Look up the "great seal" bug, and that BTW was done by Lev
Theremin

2007\01\11@111603 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
Peter P. wrote:

> news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070111/ap_on_hi_te/spy_coins
>
> I wonder how they get the signal out.

I wonder whether they even exist.

Besides this:

> "It wouldn't seem to be the best place to put something like
> that; you'd want to put it in something that wouldn't be left
> behind or spent," said Jeff Richelson, a researcher and author
> of books about the CIA and its gadgets. "It doesn't seem to
> make a whole lot of sense."

there is of course the question why Canadian coins, of all. If I wanted to
track US DoD contractors with coins, I probably would choose US coins :)  

Gerhard

2007\01\11@121100 by Herbert Graf

flavicon
face
On Thu, 2007-01-11 at 14:15 -0200, Gerhard Fiedler wrote:
> Peter P. wrote:
>
> > news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070111/ap_on_hi_te/spy_coins
> >
> > I wonder how they get the signal out.
>
> I wonder whether they even exist.

Me too.

{Quote hidden}

Hmm, perhaps the IS the reason. A US coin can be "spent" in many more
places the a Canadian coin.

Having worked with US people who regularly come up to Canada it is not
unusual to see some cannuck money in their pockets.

That said, I agree with you, this story does seem a bit far fetched. But
anything is possible.

TTYL

2007\01\11@154724 by Debbie

flavicon
face

--- Herbert Graf <.....mailinglist3KILLspamspam@spam@farcite.net> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

I can imagine the scenario at Spy Tracking HQ if the target put the coin in a
parking machine: Hey, our man seems to be standing round in the street an awful
long time! :)
Debbie

Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com

2007\01\11@163231 by David VanHorn

picon face
> I can imagine the scenario at Spy Tracking HQ if the target put the coin
> in a
> parking machine: Hey, our man seems to be standing round in the street an
> awful
> long time! :)
> Debbie


If that is a resonant cavity bug, they need to be able to paint it with some
pretty strong microwaves.
The operation is explained some in "Theremin, Ether music and espionage"

2007\01\11@164235 by Peter P.

picon face
Gerhard Fiedler <lists <at> connectionbrazil.com> writes:

> Peter P. wrote:
>
> > news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070111/ap_on_hi_te/spy_coins
> >
> > I wonder how they get the signal out.
>
> I wonder whether they even exist.
>
> Besides this:
>
> > "It wouldn't seem to be the best place to put something like
> > that; you'd want to put it in something that wouldn't be left
> > behind or spent," said Jeff Richelson, a researcher and author
> > of books about the CIA and its gadgets. "It doesn't seem to
> > make a whole lot of sense."
>
> there is of course the question why Canadian coins, of all. If I wanted to
> track US DoD contractors with coins, I probably would choose US coins :)  

If you'd be a third party interested in raising a stink between .ca and .us
you'd do just exactly that. If you'd be a local you's still do as above in the
hope that someone would look for a third party. Surely you wouldn't expect them
to be Bangladeshi coins ? Anyway I know nothing about these things except spook
stuff is not to be touched excepting with a long pole. It stinks. I was
referring to the technical issue. As to whether it exists, I doubt whether they
made up that coin.

Peter


2007\01\11@164723 by Peter P.

picon face
David VanHorn <dvanhorn <at> microbrix.com> writes:

> On 1/11/07, Peter P. <plpeter2006 <at> yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070111/ap_on_hi_te/spy_coins
> >
> > I wonder how they get the signal out. Assuming the lids are metal and
> > insulated
> > they could be used as 'dipole' halves. Or use a microwave frequency and
> > resonate
> > the disks as is ?
>
> The latter.. Look up the "great seal" bug, and that BTW was done by Lev
> Theremin

'Painting' something with microwaves in 2006 will likely end up with half the
country's black helicopters buzzing the source before you can say 'hop'.
Especially some kind of defence-related installation. The kind of beam needed to
illuminate a resonator should be almost the same with the kind of beam used to
illuminate a target before shooting a radar guided missile at it, power-wise.

Outguessing what others did or did not do is not what I was trying to do. I was
trying to understand how one gets a signal out of something that very closely
resembles a good quality shield can. Low power too, as there is no room for a
big battery in there.

I think I saw some boxes like that in a museum kind of place on the web. They
were supposed to be carrying microfilms or codepads or such, during the cold
war. Not transmitters.

Also, having such a thing planted on one, where one would be a scientist with
some form of security clearance, would probably be one of the fastest ways to
end one's carreer as a defence subcontractor, and possibly land one in jail
while the powers that be make their minds up about what the thing got used for.

So, I assume it's really a tracking gadget, as they said, and I would like to
know how one couples the signal to it so it gest out of the box. Resonating the
box directly as a slotless slot antenna or flat discone might work.

Peter P.


2007\01\11@170906 by David VanHorn

picon face
Gargoyle on the "Great seal bug"

It was a resonant cavity, totally passive.
You paint it with a beam, and the reflected energy is amplitude modulated by
the audio.

2007\01\12@023129 by Peter P.

picon face
David VanHorn <dvanhorn <at> microbrix.com> writes:

> Gargoyle on the "Great seal bug"
>
> It was a resonant cavity, totally passive.
> You paint it with a beam, and the reflected energy is amplitude modulated by
> the audio.

Thanks, I have read that before. I was saying that the beam must be so strong it
would trigger threat warning indicators. Both the 'seal' and this thing are
subject to the radar equation, lacking their own source of energy. That's why
the beam needs to be very powerful.

Peter


2007\01\12@130545 by David VanHorn

picon face
>
>
> Thanks, I have read that before. I was saying that the beam must be so
> strong it
> would trigger threat warning indicators. Both the 'seal' and this thing
> are
> subject to the radar equation, lacking their own source of energy. That's
> why
> the beam needs to be very powerful.


I don't know that it needs to be all that powerful, it's not actually
running anything in there.
It's just that the reflected energy needs to be detectable.  Doppler speed
guns aren't too powerful, and they work.

2007\01\12@143625 by Brooke Clarke

flavicon
face
Hi Peter:

The way I read the article the coin shown was one used for hiding micro
dots and they were saying the tracking coin was similar.  The link to
the U.S. coin web page is broken.

If the actual coin was physically large there would be less chance of it
getting used in some machine.  And if it was a Canadian coin then it
would be less likely to be spent in the U.S.

One approach would be some type of anti shoplifting tag.  That way the
coin could be made from a non magnetic metal with the tag inside.  Just
a guess.  The subject would need to pass through what amounts to a
"gate" like at store exits, but this could be hidden in a door frame for
this application rather than being out in the open in the case of
discouraging people from shoplifting.   The operational parameters of
the tag could be made different from the common tags so that it would
mark the subject as a shoplifter when he was leaving a store.

Another approach might be some type of RFID tag.  These are powered by
an external LF signal picked up in a coil.  The response is a UHF
signal.  By splitting the coin into two or more electrically isolated
parts it might act as an antenna for the UHF signal.  A coil could be
placed just inside the diameter.

Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke

--
w/Java http://www.PRC68.com
w/o Java www.pacificsites.com/~brooke/PRC68COM.shtml
http://www.precisionclock.com

2007\01\12@150511 by Peter P.

picon face
David VanHorn <dvanhorn <at> microbrix.com> writes:

> I don't know that it needs to be all that powerful, it's not actually
> running anything in there.
> It's just that the reflected energy needs to be detectable.  Doppler speed
> guns aren't too powerful, and they work.

Doppler speed guns are pointed at essentially point blank range at a target that
is many lambdas square. The small resonator if used as a microwave microphone is
at most one lambda square, assuming someone can actually put a beam on it
(remember it would be in a wallet between other coins). The radar cross section
for a microwave speed gun is huge and its power is not so low (tens of mW
afaik). A laser speed gun will have double the range for the same beam power
because for the laser the radar equation is not valid (the laser is inverse
square law without a retroreflector).

Brooke said it could be used in a 'gate' type of reader but the article mentions
'tracking'. This implies it works stand-alone imho. It will be fun to watch how
this ends.

Peter P.


More... (looser matching)
- Last day of these posts
- In 2007 , 2008 only
- Today
- New search...