Post by thread:[EE] Manhattan-style Prototyping

On 05/06/2010 01:46 PM, Michael Watterson wrote: > Ariel Rocholl wrote: >> Chuck Adams wrote these nice articles, here is the introduction: >> >> www.qrpme.com/K7QO%20Manhattan%20Techniques%20Paper.pdf >> >> ...and your link is the 2nd part of it. >> >> 2010/5/6 Marcel Birthelmer <marcelb.listsKILLspamgmail.com> >> >> > http://www.qrpme.com/ > > This is a strange fixation, kits that fit in tuna tins or something? > > What next? Sardine cans with 320x240 touch screen 18F4550? I want one but only if we can get the fish smell out of it. ;-) -- Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry .....ncherryKILLspam.....linuxha.com http://www.linuxha.com/ Main site http://linuxha.blogspot.com/ My HA Blog Author of: Linux Smart Homes For Dummies

Neil Cherry wrote: > On 05/06/2010 01:46 PM, Michael Watterson wrote: > >> Ariel Rocholl wrote: >> >>> Chuck Adams wrote these nice articles, here is the introduction: >>> >>> www.qrpme.com/K7QO%20Manhattan%20Techniques%20Paper.pdf >>> I experimented with a cheap leather punch and two sizes of round pad, to make island pads for Manhattan: 1) Paxoline/SRPB 1.6mm board. Shatters 2) 1.6mm FR4. Awkward, but if the punch is sharpened around outer edge with file, it just about works. 3) Some PCB for microwave patch antenna. < 0.8mm, material unknown. Works great very easy. It's the kind of very cheap punch with a wheel of about 8 different size slightly conical hollow punch and lightweight "pliers" type action with half open rolled sheet handles rather than solid.

Perhaps for standard low frequency stuff you are right, but Manhattan and other similar techniques are prototyping tools for RF design. You don't really need it except for RF. You cannot use breadboards and similar things for prototype RF multi-GHZ circuitry. Once you have your Manhattan board working as expected, you go to PCB production from there. In many cases you won't be able to use standard PCB as they have a high loss dielectric so PCB production for teflon and other materials are quite expensive and typically not available for hobbyists. 2010/5/7 Tamas Rudnai <tamas.rudnaispam_OUTgmail.com> > What is the advantage of using Manhattan technique? I always thought it was > used only before PCB etching become available to hobbyists? > > Thanks > Tamas > > >

Won't the extra length of component legs that this method brings with it, especially for capacitors, introduce a lot of extra impedance in the circuits at those frequencies? /Ruben {Quote hidden}> Perhaps for standard low frequency stuff you are right, but Manhattan and > other similar techniques are prototyping tools for RF design. You don't > really need it except for RF. > > You cannot use breadboards and similar things for prototype RF multi-GHZ > circuitry. Once you have your Manhattan board working as expected, you go to > PCB production from there. In many cases you won't be able to use standard > PCB as they have a high loss dielectric so PCB production for teflon and > other materials are quite expensive and typically not available for > hobbyists. > > 2010/5/7 Tamas Rudnai <@spam@tamas.rudnaiKILLspamgmail.com> > > > What is the advantage of using Manhattan technique? I always thought it > was > > used only before PCB etching become available to hobbyists? > > > > Thanks > > Tamas > > > > > > > -

Examples on the document are just easy examples, you normally use much shorter legs. I actually use a variation of this method with Kapton tape and conductive strip which help you use 1206 SMD so parasistic impedance is greatly reduced. 2010/5/7 Ruben Jönsson <KILLspamrubenKILLspampp.sbbs.se> {Quote hidden}> Won't the extra length of component legs that this method brings with it, > especially for capacitors, introduce a lot of extra impedance in the > circuits > at those frequencies? > > /Ruben > > > > Perhaps for standard low frequency stuff you are right, but Manhattan and > > other similar techniques are prototyping tools for RF design. You don't > > really need it except for RF. > > > > You cannot use breadboards and similar things for prototype RF multi-GHZ > > circuitry. Once you have your Manhattan board working as expected, you go > to > > PCB production from there. In many cases you won't be able to use > standard > > PCB as they have a high loss dielectric so PCB production for teflon and > > other materials are quite expensive and typically not available for > > hobbyists. > > > > 2010/5/7 Tamas Rudnai <RemoveMEtamas.rudnaiTakeThisOuTgmail.com> > > > > > What is the advantage of using Manhattan technique? I always thought it > > was > > > used only before PCB etching become available to hobbyists? > > > > > > Thanks > > > Tamas > > > > > > > > > > > --

Adam Field wrote: >> What is the advantage of using Manhattan technique? I always thought >> it was used only before PCB etching become available to hobbyists? > > If you have a circuit in mind, you can build it in under an hour and > have a rigid prototype. I etch boards too, but the process takes much > longer than manhattan construction for low part count projects. But these advantages are not unique to manhattan layout, only to fixed pre-made prototyping boards you can solder to. For example, the prototype area of my ReadyBoards (http://www.embedinc.com/products) mimics the layout of common solderless breadboards. You can also use those just as well to build a circuit quickly and end up with a rigid and reliable prototype.

At 08:14 PM 5/6/2010, Tamas Rudnai wrote: >What is the advantage of using Manhattan technique? I always thought it was >used only before PCB etching become available to hobbyists? Its quick and easy. It has good RF performance (up to UHF frequencies if you are careful). I routinely use that technique when I'm adding circuitry to an existing design. For example, one of the mods I do to some of the professional wireless intercom systems I work with (broadcast-type comm systems) is to add a bias supply to the receive antenna input so that a powered (active) receive antenna can be used. The only place that can be done on these particular units is inside the little metal can that houses the input bandpass filter. I use a few little (3/16") diameter circles of PCB material glued to the top of the existing circuit board to hold all of the components I need to add. The bypass capacitors have extremely short leads - the circles are glued to areas of the existing PCB that are all ground-plane. Just scrape away the solder mask and solder the cap from the added circle right down to the ground plane. I've also been known to glue PCB circles right on top of SMT components (usually chips). Those are usually 1/8" diameter circles. Modern purpose-built prototyping circuit boards have reduced the need for Manhattan construction for most low-frequency work as well as circuits that use mostly ICs. But if I don't have the time or inclination to design a PCB for a RF project, Manhattan construction is probably my first choice. FWIW - I sit down for fifteen minutes and punch several hundred circles out of cleaned PCB material when I get low. I use a Roper Whitney "Junior" 3/16 punch - I purchased a couple of extra punches (1/8", 3/16") and ground the centering-tits off so as to punch flat circles. Our local R-W supplier keeps most of the Roper-Whitney stuff in stock and the extra punches were only a couple of dollars each. I store the cleaned circles in a small zip-lock baggie - they don't oxidize too badly over a one year period. dwayne -- Dwayne Reid <spamBeGonedwaynerspamBeGoneplanet.eon.net> Trinity Electronics Systems Ltd Edmonton, AB, CANADA (780) 489-3199 voice (780) 487-6397 fax http://www.trinity-electronics.com Custom Electronics Design and Manufacturing

Interesting stuff, thanks guys to lightening me up! There is something I again I need to try :-) Thanks Tamas On Fri, May 7, 2010 at 4:42 PM, Dwayne Reid <TakeThisOuTdwaynerEraseMEspam_OUTplanet.eon.net> wrote: {Quote hidden}> At 08:14 PM 5/6/2010, Tamas Rudnai wrote: > >What is the advantage of using Manhattan technique? I always thought it > was > >used only before PCB etching become available to hobbyists? > > Its quick and easy. It has good RF performance (up to UHF > frequencies if you are careful). > > I routinely use that technique when I'm adding circuitry to an > existing design. For example, one of the mods I do to some of the > professional wireless intercom systems I work with (broadcast-type > comm systems) is to add a bias supply to the receive antenna input so > that a powered (active) receive antenna can be used. The only place > that can be done on these particular units is inside the little metal > can that houses the input bandpass filter. I use a few little > (3/16") diameter circles of PCB material glued to the top of the > existing circuit board to hold all of the components I need to > add. The bypass capacitors have extremely short leads - the circles > are glued to areas of the existing PCB that are all > ground-plane. Just scrape away the solder mask and solder the cap > from the added circle right down to the ground plane. > > I've also been known to glue PCB circles right on top of SMT > components (usually chips). Those are usually 1/8" diameter circles. > > Modern purpose-built prototyping circuit boards have reduced the need > for Manhattan construction for most low-frequency work as well as > circuits that use mostly ICs. But if I don't have the time or > inclination to design a PCB for a RF project, Manhattan construction > is probably my first choice. > > FWIW - I sit down for fifteen minutes and punch several hundred > circles out of cleaned PCB material when I get low. I use a Roper > Whitney "Junior" 3/16 punch - I purchased a couple of extra punches > (1/8", 3/16") and ground the centering-tits off so as to punch flat > circles. Our local R-W supplier keeps most of the Roper-Whitney > stuff in stock and the extra punches were only a couple of dollars > each. I store the cleaned circles in a small zip-lock baggie - they > don't oxidize too badly over a one year period. > > dwayne > > -- > Dwayne Reid <RemoveMEdwaynerTakeThisOuTplanet.eon.net> > Trinity Electronics Systems Ltd Edmonton, AB, CANADA > (780) 489-3199 voice (780) 487-6397 fax > http://www.trinity-electronics.com > Custom Electronics Design and Manufacturing > > -