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'[EE] Lifter design'
2004\09\20@111736 by Mike Hord

picon face
I prefer to use the nasty term embedded in the title of this
website, as it tends to lead to one being labelled a "kook",
or worse, a "pseudo-scientist".

I feel it's worth mentioning to the PICList as a whole,
because I think many who haven't seen it may be interested,
and those who have seen it may have some input for me
about how it works/if it works.

http://www.americanantigravity.com

Fascinating stuff, really.  In short, applying a high enough
voltage (tens to hundreds of kilovolts) to a capacitor whose
plates have different geometries in the correct orientation
yields a net force sufficient to levitate light objects.

Usually a piece of magnet wire in the same plane as a
piece of metal foil.  The force vector follows that plane,
from the foil to the wire.

The most interesting part is that while no one seems to be
able to provide a really adequate explanation for the physics
involved (at least not one that I wouldn't consider
"pseudoscientific"), a great deal of experimentation in this
field seems to be occuring in basements and garages
while almost none seems to be occuring on an industrial
scale.

Mike H.
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2004\09\20@131945 by Robin.Bussell

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>about how it works/if it works.


What I've always wondered about those things is how dependant they are

on the other side of the HT supply being earthed ... could be a bit of a

problem if they want to achieve actual flight!



While on the subject of high voltage things, any budding Van Der Graaf

or Tesla coil builders in the UK might be interested in some nice stainless

steel spheres that are available at B&Q (a DIY chain store) at what looks

like a good price... 17UKP for a 250mm polished hollow stainless sphere

strikes me as quite good value (though I've never tried to price such a thing

before I'll admit) , they intend you to just leave them lying around the garden

or floating on the pond though:


http://www.diy.co.uk/diy/jsp/bq/category/category.jsp?CATID=182874



They must have loads of uses... whole sky camera anyone?

Cheers,

          Robin.



Apologies for the following huge disclaimers, out of my hands I'm afraid.





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2004\09\20@155340 by Jose Da Silva

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On Monday 20 September 2004 08:17 am, Mike Hord wrote:
> I prefer to use the nasty term embedded in the title of this
> website, as it tends to lead to one being labelled a "kook",
> or worse, a "pseudo-scientist".

Yes, there are some ideas that qualify as "kook" and "pseudo-scientist",
however, if you put the "kook" theories aside, what you're looking at is
most likely based on static electricity.
You recall how if you touch a Tesla coil and your hair lifts due to static
electricity, while in other cases things cling together (such as some
clothes coming out of a dryer)?

This seems to (I think) word it correctly:
evolve000.topcities.com/crazye/ceflyingcap.html
--quote--
"It turns out that the device probably depends more on ions than on
capacitance"
--quote--

...that website points here, which seems to show better info:
http://jnaudin.free.fr/lifters/main.htm


{Quote hidden}

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2004\09\20@161332 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
> I prefer [not] to use the nasty term embedded in the title of this
> website, as it tends to lead to one being labelled a "kook",
> or worse, a "pseudo-scientist".

I assume the [not] was intended :-)

> I feel it's worth mentioning to the PICList as a whole,
> because I think many who haven't seen it may be interested,
> and those who have seen it may have some input for me
> about how it works/if it works.
>
> http://www.americanantigravity.com

Generally said to be caused by electron flow via charged air or other
particles providing net force. Particles "overshoot".

BUT it has been alleged that the devices provide a n force in vacuum BUT I
have never seen this well documented, let alone written up objectively. The
fact that NASA et al are not trailing them suggests they don't work as,
unlike the somewhat similar eg ion drives they are fuel-less so would work
theoretically forever. As such they would be ideal for tasks such as station
keeping for communications satellites. (For all that is said about them NASA
are far from stupid).

>From a practical point of view, the small thrust compared to weight of a
typical power supply means they are invariably tethered rather than free
floating. This is not, I think, a technological limitation but an
engineering one. Power input levels are large compared to power delivered.

Would make a great executive desk toy :-)

For a successful commercial operation using a genuine antigravity system
based on known principles see the similarly titled site by antigravity
research at

       http://www.antigravityresearch.com/

   :-)

I used a modified form of their product in 20+ countries during our round
the world trip.



       Russell McMahon

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2004\09\20@162054 by Mike Hord

picon face
> What I've always wondered about those things is how dependant they are
> on the other side of the HT supply being earthed ... could be a bit of a
> problem if they want to achieve actual flight!

Not at all.  Earthing loses its whole point once you go through a transformer.
Isolation and all that.  Well, not entirely isolate, but quite seriously.

More to the point, I saw a place where a horizontally positioned lifter was
used to drive an airship, which carried then entire powersupply battery and
all underneath.

Mike H.
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2004\09\20@213809 by William Chops Westfield
face picon face
On Sep 20, 2004, at 1:09 PM, Jose Da Silva wrote:

> "It turns out that the device probably depends more on ions than on
> capacitance"
>
It always looked to me like it worked via "electric wind" which is a
pretty well documented thing.  That means it wouldn't work in a vacuum,
and would be pretty useless as a spacecraft motor.

There are a fair number of electrostatic motors that operate off of
very high voltages and very low currents.   These are often very
interesting looking, and one of the favorite demos
is operating them off the potential difference of ground vs a couple
hundred feet up.  Alas, I fear concervation of energy still applies,
and your volts*amps power rating is sufficiently tiny that these are
more an interesting project in low-friction construction than a viable
energy source...

BillW

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2004\09\21@095532 by Mike Hord

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> Alas, I fear concervation of energy still applies,
> and your volts*amps power rating is sufficiently tiny that these are
> more an interesting project in low-friction construction than a viable
> energy source...
>
> BillW

Stupid thermodynamics and Newton.  I get very nervous when people
start talking "free energy" and the like...almost surely leads down the
road to a pseudoscience dead-end!

Mike H.

PS- Russell, you rightly inserted the "[not]" above, but I'm pretty sure
it was read as such by most.
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2004\09\21@140002 by Jose Da Silva

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On Monday 20 September 2004 06:32 pm, William Chops Westfield wrote:
> On Sep 20, 2004, at 1:09 PM, Jose Da Silva wrote:
> > "It turns out that the device probably depends more on ions than on
> > capacitance"
>
> It always looked to me like it worked via "electric wind" which is a
> pretty well documented thing.  That means it wouldn't work in a vacuum,
> and would be pretty useless as a spacecraft motor.

Reading the previous article, it would put some nasty burn marks in anything
which could be considered a "spark gap" such as hands, people, pets.
Electric wind sounds about right, since I think I recall reading elsewhere
that they eventually do sink down, so I suppose they are slowly losing their
charge across the gap.

> There are a fair number of electrostatic motors that operate off of
> very high voltages and very low currents.   These are often very
> interesting looking, and one of the favorite demos
> is operating them off the potential difference of ground vs a couple
> hundred feet up.  Alas, I fear concervation of energy still applies,

Conservation of energy always applies.
Sometimes not all the variables can be explained yet, so it may look great,
until you realize there is no free lunch when you find where the unexplained
is coming from.

> and your volts*amps power rating is sufficiently tiny that these are
> more an interesting project in low-friction construction than a viable
> energy source...

If you understand your science well enough, you know there is no such thing
as an over-unity machine (or perpetual motion machine).    :-)

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2004\09\21@154034 by Mark Jordan

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On 21 Sep 2004 at 0:24, Jose Da Silva wrote:

>
> If you understand your science well enough, you know there is no such thing
> as an over-unity machine (or perpetual motion machine).    :-)
>

       Until someone invent it!

       Mark Jordan

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2004\09\21@180543 by Jinx

face picon face
> > If you understand your science well enough, you know there is no
> > such thing as an over-unity machine (or perpetual motion machine)
> >    :-)
> >
>
> Until someone invent it!

Have you ever read of Bruce dePalma's N-machine ?

"Physicist Bruce DePalma has a 100 kilowatt generator, which he
invented, sitting in his garage. It could power his whole house, but
if he turns it on, the government may confiscate it.

Harvard educated DePalma, who taught physics at MIT for 15 years,
claims that his electrical generator can provide cheap, inexhaustible,
self-sustaining and non polluting source of energy, using principles
that flout conventional physics and are still not fully understood. His N
machine, as it is called, is said to release the "free energy" latent in
the space all around us. DePalma views his device as an innovation
that could help to end the worlds's dangerous dependence on finite
supplies of oil, gas, and other polluting fossil based fuels"

http://www.mufor.org/nmachine.html

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2004\09\21@190138 by Kevin

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Can't he give the plans to a 16 year old hacker to release
on the internet ?

Kevin

On Wed, 22 Sep 2004, Jinx wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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2004\09\21@191907 by Herbert Graf

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face
On Tue, 2004-09-21 at 19:01, Kevin wrote:
> Can't he give the plans to a 16 year old hacker to release
> on the internet ?
>
> Kevin

Which, in my mind, is perfect proof it doesn't work...

-----------------------------
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http://repatch.dyndns.org:8383/pic_stuff/

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2004\09\21@194737 by Brent Brown

picon face
> Have you ever read of Bruce dePalma's N-machine ?
>
> "Physicist Bruce DePalma has a 100 kilowatt generator, which he
> invented, sitting in his garage. It could power his whole house, but if
> he turns it on, the government may confiscate it.
> http://www.mufor.org/nmachine.html

I get this:

Norton Internet Security has blocked access to this restricted site.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Site: http://www.mufor.org/nmachine.html
Blocked categories: Occult/New Age
If you think this web site is incorrectly categorized, visit the Symantec
Internet Security Center to report it.

...maybe this means Norton is in on the conspiracy too? :-)

--
Brent Brown, Electronic Design Solutions
16 English Street, Hamilton, New Zealand
Ph/fax: +64 7 849 0069
Mobile/txt: 025 334 069
eMail:  spam_OUTbrent.brownTakeThisOuTspamclear.net.nz


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2004\09\21@195215 by Jinx

face picon face
> Can't he give the plans to a 16 year old hacker to release
> on the internet ?

The plans are freely available. I've had a copy for 15 years. It has
also run in Nexus magazine, and there were reports of people rep-
licatiing DePalma's results with simple units made from plexiglass
and small rare earth magnets. There was a local (NZ) interest in
DePalma's work (Cathey, Sanders and others) but I've lost contact
over the years

(Those in NZ will also be aware of whatever-happened-to-Rick
Mayne's-Split-Cycle-engine)

What surpries me is that someone with money and an interest in
global technology, eg the likes of Dean Karmen (Segway, Stirling
engines), Bill Gates, or an electric car developer, hasn't picked this
up. It seems as though the N machine has stagnated for several years
(although I'm not up-to-date with current developments) despite, if it
actually works, the obvious benefits

There will be those who instinctively poo-poo DePalma but I've an
open mind about it

- all the physics hasn't been discovered
- some sectors of the energy industry/military do not box to
 Queensbury Rules
- it is not unknown for scientists to do a 180
- theories are largely only as good as the facts that support them
 at the time. No one can say with any certainty what will come out
 of quantum mechanics or particle physics

Found this while searching, a page of interesting geeky stuff

members.fortunecity.com/duggy3/aardvarkvillage/shopcenter/library/lib
links1.html

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2004\09\21@195216 by Jinx

face picon face
> Can't he give the plans to a 16 year old hacker to release
> > on the internet ?
> >
> > Kevin
>
> Which, in my mind, is perfect proof it doesn't work...

That's hardly objective Hebert. All kinds IP isn't released
but we know that things do work. You'd expect to see the
blueprints for a B1 bomber in a school library maybe ?

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2004\09\21@203927 by Herbert Graf

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face
On Tue, 2004-09-21 at 19:51, Jinx wrote:
>  > Can't he give the plans to a 16 year old hacker to release
> > > on the internet ?
> > >
> > > Kevin
> >
> > Which, in my mind, is perfect proof it doesn't work...
>
> That's hardly objective Hebert.

Agreed, it's hardly objective.

> All kinds IP isn't released
> but we know that things do work.

Again, agreed.

> You'd expect to see the
> blueprints for a B1 bomber in a school library maybe ?

Nope, but in this case, if it were indeed as "world changing" as the
person claims the plans WOULD be out there, would have been scooped up
by millions and we'd all have built one of these machines by now.

The fact that hasn't happened is VERY strong "evidence" that the device
is exactly what I think it is.


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2004\09\21@212058 by Jinx

face picon face
> Nope, but in this case, if it were indeed as "world changing" as the
> person claims the plans WOULD be out there

Well, plans and descriptions are out there - they aren't exactly secret.
As I mentioned, I've had detailed plans for many years

Googling gets many results

http://www.australiatrade.com.au/Alternative/Technology/Shopping/prod36.htm

http://www.amasci.com/freenrg/fnrg.html

http://depalma.pair.com/Absurdity/Absurdity05/SecretOfForceMachine.html

and (unfortunately mentions the cold fusion boogeyman but it's
just a discussion)

http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/gargoyle/32/source.htm



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2004\09\21@231005 by Emil Johnsen

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>Well, plans and descriptions are out there - they aren't exactly secret.
>As I mentioned, I've had detailed plans for many years
>
>Googling gets many results
>...
>http://www.amasci.com/freenrg/fnrg.html


"A: As of 04/2004, no proven F/E device exists. Hundreds of amateurs are
hotly pursuing anything which could lead to success. There are several FREE
ENERGY PRIZES, but so far nobody has won any of them."

From http://www.amasci.com/freenrg/fefaq.html#plans


--
Emil Johnsen


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2004\09\22@005939 by Peter L. Peres

picon face

On Mon, 20 Sep 2004, Mike Hord wrote:

> More to the point, I saw a place where a horizontally positioned lifter was
> used to drive an airship, which carried then entire powersupply battery and
> all underneath.

As long as they don't claim to produce more energy than they consume they
have the benefit of doubt. Anyway playing with high voltage is fun even if
no special new effect is discovered imho.

Peter
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2004\09\22@010014 by Peter L. Peres

picon face


On Mon, 20 Sep 2004, Jose Da Silva wrote:

> This seems to (I think) word it correctly:
> evolve000.topcities.com/crazye/ceflyingcap.html
> --quote--
> "It turns out that the device probably depends more on ions than on
> capacitance"
> --quote--

But they claim to have run tests to specifically exclude this possibility
in a vacuum chamber and they say they're not ions.

Peter
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2004\09\22@011535 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
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> but we know that things do work. You'd expect to see the
> blueprints for a B1 bomber in a school library maybe ?

No. But you can probably get a copy at the local US tip on a   good day.

       RM

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2004\09\22@020424 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face
On Sep 21, 2004, at 4:53 PM, Peter L. Peres wrote:
>
> But they claim to have run tests to specifically exclude this
> possibility in a vacuum chamber and they say they're not ions.
>
Got a specific page with photos and/or measurements of one of the
lifters operating in vacuum?  I think you have to get pretty hard
vacuum before you do away with ion effects.  Sputtering, radiometers,
vacuum depositation, and others are examples of significant ion effects
in partial vacuums...

BillW

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2004\09\22@051635 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
>> But they claim to have run tests to specifically exclude this
>> possibility in a vacuum chamber and they say they're not ions.

> Got a specific page with photos and/or measurements of one of the
> lifters operating in vacuum?  I think you have to get pretty hard
> vacuum before you do away with ion effects.  Sputtering, radiometers,
> vacuum depositation, and others are examples of significant ion effects
> in partial vacuums...

I also had HEARD of claims that it worked in pure vacuum. But I've never
seen anything concrete.

You could do a fairly good test with less than full vacuum by demonstrating
the effect as pressure reduces.


       RM

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2004\09\22@062246 by Jinx

face picon face
> but it is not inconceivable that one of these days the US patent office
> is going to have to reverse its stand on the patentability of such devices

Just out of interest, seeing as you've mentioned patentability, I received
a newsletter the other day which included this piece

The "POOR MAN'S PATENT" - Aptly Named !

http://members.cox.net/robertpbell/ARTICLES/POOR.HTM

one of the "Articles by Robert P. Bell", a patent attourney and
former patent examiner. A lot of good tips and advice for the
inventor

http://users.starpower.net/robertbell.marksee/INDEX.html

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2004\09\23@035321 by Peter L. Peres

picon face

On Tue, 21 Sep 2004, William Chops Westfield wrote:

> On Sep 21, 2004, at 4:53 PM, Peter L. Peres wrote:
>>
>> But they claim to have run tests to specifically exclude this
>> possibility in a vacuum chamber and they say they're not ions.
>>
> Got a specific page with photos and/or measurements of one of the
> lifters operating in vacuum?  I think you have to get pretty hard
> vacuum before you do away with ion effects.  Sputtering, radiometers,
> vacuum depositation, and others are examples of significant ion effects
> in partial vacuums...

I agree fully but the last time I saw that site (months ago) they claimed
to use a vacuum chamber rented from somewhere to perform such testing. The
link must be on their site (maybe it did not succeed so they removed it ?
- just snickering).

Peter
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2004\09\25@075830 by Howard Winter

face
flavicon
picon face
Robin,

On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 18:11:39 +0100,
.....Robin.BussellKILLspamspam@spam@axa-sunlife.co.uk wrote:
>...<
> While on the subject of high voltage things, any
budding Van Der Graaf or Tesla coil builders in the UK
might be interested in some nice stainless steel spheres
that are available at B&Q (a DIY chain store) at what
looks like a good price... 17UKP for a 250mm polished
hollow stainless sphere strikes me as quite good value
(though I've never tried to price such a thing before
I'll admit) , they intend you to just leave them lying
around the garden or floating on the pond though:
>
www.diy.co.uk/diy/jsp/bq/category/category.jsp?CA
TID=182874
>
> They must have loads of uses... whole sky camera
anyone?

They'd be excellent topping off gateposts.  Especially
if connected to a high voltage supply... ;-)

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


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