Post by thread:[EE] Lifter design

'[EE] Lifter design'

I prefer to use the nasty term embedded in the title of this

website, as it tends to lead to one being labelled a "kook",

or worse, a "pseudo-scientist".

I feel it's worth mentioning to the PICList as a whole,

because I think many who haven't seen it may be interested,

and those who have seen it may have some input for me

about how it works/if it works.

http://www.americanantigravity.com

Fascinating stuff, really.  In short, applying a high enough

voltage (tens to hundreds of kilovolts) to a capacitor whose

plates have different geometries in the correct orientation

yields a net force sufficient to levitate light objects.

Usually a piece of magnet wire in the same plane as a

piece of metal foil.  The force vector follows that plane,

from the foil to the wire.

The most interesting part is that while no one seems to be

able to provide a really adequate explanation for the physics

involved (at least not one that I wouldn't consider 

"pseudoscientific"), a great deal of experimentation in this

field seems to be occuring in basements and garages

while almost none seems to be occuring on an industrial

scale.

Mike H.

_______________________________________________

http://www.piclist.com

View/change your membership options at

http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

>about how it works/if it works.

What I've always wondered about those things is how dependant they are

on the other side of the HT supply being earthed ... could be a bit of a

problem if they want to achieve actual flight!

While on the subject of high voltage things, any budding Van Der Graaf

or Tesla coil builders in the UK might be interested in some nice stainless

steel spheres that are available at B&Q (a DIY chain store) at what looks

like a good price... 17UKP for a 250mm polished hollow stainless sphere

strikes me as quite good value (though I've never tried to price such a thing

before I'll admit) , they intend you to just leave them lying around the garden

or floating on the pond though:

http://www.diy.co.uk/diy/jsp/bq/category/category.jsp?CATID=182874

They must have loads of uses... whole sky camera anyone?

Cheers,

           Robin.

Apologies for the following huge disclaimers, out of my hands I'm afraid.

This email originates from AXA Sun Life Services Plc (reg. no. 3424940) which is a service company for the following companies within the AXA UK plc Group: 

AXA Sun Life Plc (reg. no. 3291349)

Sun Life Assurance Society Plc (reg. no. 776273)

Sun Life Unit Assurance Limited (reg. no. 975601)

Sun Life Pensions Management Limited (reg. no. 1105141)

AXA Equity & Law Life Assurance Society Plc (reg. no. 575435)

All of the above mentioned companies are registered in England and have their registered office at 107 Cheapside, London EC2V 6DU, England.

This message and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the individual or entity to whom they are addressed.  If you have received this in error, you should not disseminate or copy this email.  Please notify the sender immediately and delete this email from your system.  

Please also note that any opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of The AXA UK Plc Group.

Email transmission cannot be guaranteed to be secure, or error free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, late in arriving or incomplete as a result of the transmission process.  The sender therefore does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which arise as a result of email transmission.

Finally, the recipient should check this email and any attachments for viruses.  The AXA UK Plc Group accept no liability for any damage caused by any virus transmitted by this email.

_______________________________________________

http://www.piclist.com

View/change your membership options at

http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

On Monday 20 September 2004 08:17 am, Mike Hord wrote:

> I prefer to use the nasty term embedded in the title of this

> website, as it tends to lead to one being labelled a "kook",

> or worse, a "pseudo-scientist".

Yes, there are some ideas that qualify as "kook" and "pseudo-scientist", 

however, if you put the "kook" theories aside, what you're looking at is 

most likely based on static electricity.

You recall how if you touch a Tesla coil and your hair lifts due to static 

electricity, while in other cases things cling together (such as some 

clothes coming out of a dryer)?

This seems to (I think) word it correctly:

evolve000.topcities.com/crazye/ceflyingcap.html

--quote--

"It turns out that the device probably depends more on ions than on 

capacitance"

--quote--

...that website points here, which seems to show better info:

http://jnaudin.free.fr/lifters/main.htm

{Quote hidden}> I feel it's worth mentioning to the PICList as a whole,

> because I think many who haven't seen it may be interested,

> and those who have seen it may have some input for me

> about how it works/if it works.

>

> http://www.americanantigravity.com

>

> Fascinating stuff, really.  In short, applying a high enough

> voltage (tens to hundreds of kilovolts) to a capacitor whose

> plates have different geometries in the correct orientation

> yields a net force sufficient to levitate light objects.

>

> Usually a piece of magnet wire in the same plane as a

> piece of metal foil.  The force vector follows that plane,

> from the foil to the wire.

>

> The most interesting part is that while no one seems to be

> able to provide a really adequate explanation for the physics

> involved (at least not one that I wouldn't consider

> "pseudoscientific"), a great deal of experimentation in this

> field seems to be occuring in basements and garages

> while almost none seems to be occuring on an industrial

> scale.

>

> Mike H.

_______________________________________________

http://www.piclist.com

View/change your membership options at

http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

> I prefer [not] to use the nasty term embedded in the title of this

> website, as it tends to lead to one being labelled a "kook",

> or worse, a "pseudo-scientist".

I assume the [not] was intended :-)

> I feel it's worth mentioning to the PICList as a whole,

> because I think many who haven't seen it may be interested,

> and those who have seen it may have some input for me

> about how it works/if it works.

>

> http://www.americanantigravity.com

Generally said to be caused by electron flow via charged air or other

particles providing net force. Particles "overshoot".

BUT it has been alleged that the devices provide a n force in vacuum BUT I

have never seen this well documented, let alone written up objectively. The

fact that NASA et al are not trailing them suggests they don't work as,

unlike the somewhat similar eg ion drives they are fuel-less so would work

theoretically forever. As such they would be ideal for tasks such as station

keeping for communications satellites. (For all that is said about them NASA 

are far from stupid).

>From a practical point of view, the small thrust compared to weight of a

typical power supply means they are invariably tethered rather than free

floating. This is not, I think, a technological limitation but an

engineering one. Power input levels are large compared to power delivered.

Would make a great executive desk toy :-)

For a successful commercial operation using a genuine antigravity system

based on known principles see the similarly titled site by antigravity

research at

        http://www.antigravityresearch.com/

    :-)

I used a modified form of their product in 20+ countries during our round

the world trip.

        Russell McMahon

_______________________________________________

http://www.piclist.com

View/change your membership options at

http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

> What I've always wondered about those things is how dependant they are

> on the other side of the HT supply being earthed ... could be a bit of a

> problem if they want to achieve actual flight!

Not at all.  Earthing loses its whole point once you go through a transformer.

Isolation and all that.  Well, not entirely isolate, but quite seriously.

More to the point, I saw a place where a horizontally positioned lifter was

used to drive an airship, which carried then entire powersupply battery and

all underneath.

Mike H.

_______________________________________________

http://www.piclist.com

View/change your membership options at

http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

On Sep 20, 2004, at 1:09 PM, Jose Da Silva wrote:

> "It turns out that the device probably depends more on ions than on

> capacitance"

>

It always looked to me like it worked via "electric wind" which is a

pretty well documented thing.  That means it wouldn't work in a vacuum,

and would be pretty useless as a spacecraft motor.

There are a fair number of electrostatic motors that operate off of

very high voltages and very low currents.   These are often very

interesting looking, and one of the favorite demos

is operating them off the potential difference of ground vs a couple

hundred feet up.  Alas, I fear concervation of energy still applies,

and your volts*amps power rating is sufficiently tiny that these are

more an interesting project in low-friction construction than a viable

energy source...

BillW

_______________________________________________

http://www.piclist.com

View/change your membership options at

http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

> Alas, I fear concervation of energy still applies,

> and your volts*amps power rating is sufficiently tiny that these are

> more an interesting project in low-friction construction than a viable

> energy source...

> 

> BillW

Stupid thermodynamics and Newton.  I get very nervous when people

start talking "free energy" and the like...almost surely leads down the

road to a pseudoscience dead-end!

Mike H.

PS- Russell, you rightly inserted the "[not]" above, but I'm pretty sure

it was read as such by most.

_______________________________________________

http://www.piclist.com

View/change your membership options at

http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

On Monday 20 September 2004 06:32 pm, William Chops Westfield wrote:

> On Sep 20, 2004, at 1:09 PM, Jose Da Silva wrote:

> > "It turns out that the device probably depends more on ions than on

> > capacitance"

>

> It always looked to me like it worked via "electric wind" which is a

> pretty well documented thing.  That means it wouldn't work in a vacuum,

> and would be pretty useless as a spacecraft motor.

Reading the previous article, it would put some nasty burn marks in anything 

which could be considered a "spark gap" such as hands, people, pets.

Electric wind sounds about right, since I think I recall reading elsewhere 

that they eventually do sink down, so I suppose they are slowly losing their 

charge across the gap.

> There are a fair number of electrostatic motors that operate off of

> very high voltages and very low currents.   These are often very

> interesting looking, and one of the favorite demos

> is operating them off the potential difference of ground vs a couple

> hundred feet up.  Alas, I fear concervation of energy still applies,

Conservation of energy always applies.

Sometimes not all the variables can be explained yet, so it may look great, 

until you realize there is no free lunch when you find where the unexplained 

is coming from.

> and your volts*amps power rating is sufficiently tiny that these are

> more an interesting project in low-friction construction than a viable

> energy source...

If you understand your science well enough, you know there is no such thing 

as an over-unity machine (or perpetual motion machine).    :-)

_______________________________________________

http://www.piclist.com

View/change your membership options at

http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

On 21 Sep 2004 at 0:24, Jose Da Silva wrote:

> 

> If you understand your science well enough, you know there is no such thing

> as an over-unity machine (or perpetual motion machine).    :-) 

> 

        Until someone invent it!

        Mark Jordan

_______________________________________________

http://www.piclist.com

View/change your membership options at

http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

> > If you understand your science well enough, you know there is no

> > such thing as an over-unity machine (or perpetual motion machine)

> >    :-) 

> > 

> 

> Until someone invent it!

Have you ever read of Bruce dePalma's N-machine ?

"Physicist Bruce DePalma has a 100 kilowatt generator, which he

invented, sitting in his garage. It could power his whole house, but

if he turns it on, the government may confiscate it. 

Harvard educated DePalma, who taught physics at MIT for 15 years,

claims that his electrical generator can provide cheap, inexhaustible,

self-sustaining and non polluting source of energy, using principles

that flout conventional physics and are still not fully understood. His N

machine, as it is called, is said to release the "free energy" latent in

the space all around us. DePalma views his device as an innovation

that could help to end the worlds's dangerous dependence on finite

supplies of oil, gas, and other polluting fossil based fuels"

http://www.mufor.org/nmachine.html

_______________________________________________

http://www.piclist.com

View/change your membership options at

http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

Can't he give the plans to a 16 year old hacker to release

on the internet ?

Kevin

On Wed, 22 Sep 2004, Jinx wrote:

{Quote hidden}> > > If you understand your science well enough, you know there is no

> > > such thing as an over-unity machine (or perpetual motion machine)

> > >    :-)

> > >

> >

> > Until someone invent it!

>

> Have you ever read of Bruce dePalma's N-machine ?

>

> "Physicist Bruce DePalma has a 100 kilowatt generator, which he

> invented, sitting in his garage. It could power his whole house, but

> if he turns it on, the government may confiscate it.

>

> Harvard educated DePalma, who taught physics at MIT for 15 years,

> claims that his electrical generator can provide cheap, inexhaustible,

> self-sustaining and non polluting source of energy, using principles

> that flout conventional physics and are still not fully understood. His N

> machine, as it is called, is said to release the "free energy" latent in

> the space all around us. DePalma views his device as an innovation

> that could help to end the worlds's dangerous dependence on finite

> supplies of oil, gas, and other polluting fossil based fuels"

>

> http://www.mufor.org/nmachine.html

>

> _______________________________________________

> http://www.piclist.com

> View/change your membership options at

> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

>

_______________________________________________

http://www.piclist.com

View/change your membership options at

http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

On Tue, 2004-09-21 at 19:01, Kevin wrote:

> Can't he give the plans to a 16 year old hacker to release

> on the internet ?

> 

> Kevin

Which, in my mind, is perfect proof it doesn't work...

-----------------------------

Herbert's PIC Stuff:

http://repatch.dyndns.org:8383/pic_stuff/

_______________________________________________

http://www.piclist.com

View/change your membership options at

http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

> Have you ever read of Bruce dePalma's N-machine ?

>

> "Physicist Bruce DePalma has a 100 kilowatt generator, which he

> invented, sitting in his garage. It could power his whole house, but if

> he turns it on, the government may confiscate it.

> http://www.mufor.org/nmachine.html 

I get this:

Norton Internet Security has blocked access to this restricted site.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Site: http://www.mufor.org/nmachine.html

Blocked categories: Occult/New Age

If you think this web site is incorrectly categorized, visit the Symantec 

Internet Security Center to report it.

...maybe this means Norton is in on the conspiracy too? :-)

-- 

Brent Brown, Electronic Design Solutions

16 English Street, Hamilton, New Zealand

Ph/fax: +64 7 849 0069

Mobile/txt: 025 334 069

eMail:  spam_OUTbrent.brownTakeThisOuTclear.net.nz

_______________________________________________

http://www.piclist.com

View/change your membership options at

http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

> Can't he give the plans to a 16 year old hacker to release

> on the internet ?

The plans are freely available. I've had a copy for 15 years. It has

also run in Nexus magazine, and there were reports of people rep-

licatiing DePalma's results with simple units made from plexiglass

and small rare earth magnets. There was a local (NZ) interest in

DePalma's work (Cathey, Sanders and others) but I've lost contact

over the years

(Those in NZ will also be aware of whatever-happened-to-Rick

Mayne's-Split-Cycle-engine)

What surpries me is that someone with money and an interest in

global technology, eg the likes of Dean Karmen (Segway, Stirling

engines), Bill Gates, or an electric car developer, hasn't picked this

up. It seems as though the N machine has stagnated for several years

(although I'm not up-to-date with current developments) despite, if it

actually works, the obvious benefits

There will be those who instinctively poo-poo DePalma but I've an

open mind about it

- all the physics hasn't been discovered

- some sectors of the energy industry/military do not box to

  Queensbury Rules

- it is not unknown for scientists to do a 180

- theories are largely only as good as the facts that support them

  at the time. No one can say with any certainty what will come out

  of quantum mechanics or particle physics

Found this while searching, a page of interesting geeky stuff

members.fortunecity.com/duggy3/aardvarkvillage/shopcenter/library/lib

links1.html

_______________________________________________

http://www.piclist.com

View/change your membership options at

http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

 > Can't he give the plans to a 16 year old hacker to release

> > on the internet ?

> > 

> > Kevin

> 

> Which, in my mind, is perfect proof it doesn't work...

That's hardly objective Hebert. All kinds IP isn't released

but we know that things do work. You'd expect to see the

blueprints for a B1 bomber in a school library maybe ?

_______________________________________________

http://www.piclist.com

View/change your membership options at

http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

On Tue, 2004-09-21 at 19:51, Jinx wrote:

>  > Can't he give the plans to a 16 year old hacker to release

> > > on the internet ?

> > > 

> > > Kevin

> > 

> > Which, in my mind, is perfect proof it doesn't work...

> 

> That's hardly objective Hebert. 

Agreed, it's hardly objective.

> All kinds IP isn't released

> but we know that things do work. 

Again, agreed.

> You'd expect to see the

> blueprints for a B1 bomber in a school library maybe ?

Nope, but in this case, if it were indeed as "world changing" as the

person claims the plans WOULD be out there, would have been scooped up

by millions and we'd all have built one of these machines by now.

The fact that hasn't happened is VERY strong "evidence" that the device

is exactly what I think it is.

-----------------------------

Herbert's PIC Stuff:

http://repatch.dyndns.org:8383/pic_stuff/

_______________________________________________

http://www.piclist.com

View/change your membership options at

http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

> Nope, but in this case, if it were indeed as "world changing" as the

> person claims the plans WOULD be out there

Well, plans and descriptions are out there - they aren't exactly secret.

As I mentioned, I've had detailed plans for many years

Googling gets many results

http://www.australiatrade.com.au/Alternative/Technology/Shopping/prod36.htm

http://www.amasci.com/freenrg/fnrg.html

http://depalma.pair.com/Absurdity/Absurdity05/SecretOfForceMachine.html

and (unfortunately mentions the cold fusion boogeyman but it's

just a discussion)

http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/gargoyle/32/source.htm

_______________________________________________

http://www.piclist.com

View/change your membership options at

http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

>Well, plans and descriptions are out there - they aren't exactly secret.

>As I mentioned, I've had detailed plans for many years

>

>Googling gets many results

>...

>http://www.amasci.com/freenrg/fnrg.html

"A: As of 04/2004, no proven F/E device exists. Hundreds of amateurs are 

hotly pursuing anything which could lead to success. There are several FREE 

ENERGY PRIZES, but so far nobody has won any of them."

 From http://www.amasci.com/freenrg/fefaq.html#plans

--

Emil Johnsen

_______________________________________________

http://www.piclist.com

View/change your membership options at

http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

On Mon, 20 Sep 2004, Mike Hord wrote:

> More to the point, I saw a place where a horizontally positioned lifter was

> used to drive an airship, which carried then entire powersupply battery and

> all underneath.

As long as they don't claim to produce more energy than they consume they 

have the benefit of doubt. Anyway playing with high voltage is fun even if 

no special new effect is discovered imho.

Peter

_______________________________________________

http://www.piclist.com

View/change your membership options at

http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

On Mon, 20 Sep 2004, Jose Da Silva wrote:

> This seems to (I think) word it correctly:

> evolve000.topcities.com/crazye/ceflyingcap.html

> --quote--

> "It turns out that the device probably depends more on ions than on

> capacitance"

> --quote--

But they claim to have run tests to specifically exclude this possibility 

in a vacuum chamber and they say they're not ions.

Peter

_______________________________________________

http://www.piclist.com

View/change your membership options at

http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

> but we know that things do work. You'd expect to see the

> blueprints for a B1 bomber in a school library maybe ?

No. But you can probably get a copy at the local US tip on a   good day.

        RM

_______________________________________________

http://www.piclist.com

View/change your membership options at

http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

On Sep 21, 2004, at 4:53 PM, Peter L. Peres wrote:

>

> But they claim to have run tests to specifically exclude this

> possibility in a vacuum chamber and they say they're not ions.

>

Got a specific page with photos and/or measurements of one of the

lifters operating in vacuum?  I think you have to get pretty hard

vacuum before you do away with ion effects.  Sputtering, radiometers,

vacuum depositation, and others are examples of significant ion effects

in partial vacuums...

BillW

_______________________________________________

http://www.piclist.com

View/change your membership options at

http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

>> But they claim to have run tests to specifically exclude this

>> possibility in a vacuum chamber and they say they're not ions.

> Got a specific page with photos and/or measurements of one of the

> lifters operating in vacuum?  I think you have to get pretty hard

> vacuum before you do away with ion effects.  Sputtering, radiometers,

> vacuum depositation, and others are examples of significant ion effects

> in partial vacuums...

I also had HEARD of claims that it worked in pure vacuum. But I've never 

seen anything concrete.

You could do a fairly good test with less than full vacuum by demonstrating 

the effect as pressure reduces.

        RM 

_______________________________________________

http://www.piclist.com

View/change your membership options at

http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

> but it is not inconceivable that one of these days the US patent office

> is going to have to reverse its stand on the patentability of such devices

Just out of interest, seeing as you've mentioned patentability, I received

a newsletter the other day which included this piece

The "POOR MAN'S PATENT" - Aptly Named !

http://members.cox.net/robertpbell/ARTICLES/POOR.HTM

one of the "Articles by Robert P. Bell", a patent attourney and

former patent examiner. A lot of good tips and advice for the

inventor

http://users.starpower.net/robertbell.marksee/INDEX.html

_______________________________________________

http://www.piclist.com

View/change your membership options at

http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

On Tue, 21 Sep 2004, William Chops Westfield wrote:

> On Sep 21, 2004, at 4:53 PM, Peter L. Peres wrote:

>> 

>> But they claim to have run tests to specifically exclude this

>> possibility in a vacuum chamber and they say they're not ions.

>> 

> Got a specific page with photos and/or measurements of one of the

> lifters operating in vacuum?  I think you have to get pretty hard

> vacuum before you do away with ion effects.  Sputtering, radiometers,

> vacuum depositation, and others are examples of significant ion effects

> in partial vacuums...

I agree fully but the last time I saw that site (months ago) they claimed 

to use a vacuum chamber rented from somewhere to perform such testing. The 

link must be on their site (maybe it did not succeed so they removed it ? 

- just snickering).

Peter

_______________________________________________

http://www.piclist.com

View/change your membership options at

http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

Robin,

On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 18:11:39 +0100, 

.....Robin.BussellKILLspam@spam@axa-sunlife.co.uk wrote:

>...<

> While on the subject of high voltage things, any 

budding Van Der Graaf or Tesla coil builders in the UK 

might be interested in some nice stainless steel spheres 

that are available at B&Q (a DIY chain store) at what 

looks like a good price... 17UKP for a 250mm polished 

hollow stainless sphere strikes me as quite good value 

(though I've never tried to price such a thing before 

I'll admit) , they intend you to just leave them lying 

around the garden or floating on the pond though:

> 

www.diy.co.uk/diy/jsp/bq/category/category.jsp?CA

TID=182874

> 

> They must have loads of uses... whole sky camera 

anyone?

They'd be excellent topping off gateposts.  Especially 

if connected to a high voltage supply... ;-)

Cheers,

Howard Winter

St.Albans, England

_______________________________________________

http://www.piclist.com

View/change your membership options at

http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist