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'[EE] Laptop Choice'
2005\10\04@175531 by John Nall

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Howard Winter wrote:



> > I recently bought a
>T23 that's approaching its 4th birthday, for what I consider a bargain price (about the same as 2 ICD2s!) and
>having changed the US keyboard for a UK one . . . .
>

What in the world would be the difference between a US keyboard and a UK
keyboard??  You type "gas" and it comes out "petrol?"  Stuff like that?  :-)

John


2005\10\04@182349 by sergio masci

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On Tue, 4 Oct 2005, John Nall wrote:

{Quote hidden}

No it has the keys in the right place. It also has a key with the local
currency symbol which can be useful :-)

Regards
Sergio Masci

2005\10\04@183318 by Howard Winter

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John,

On Tue, 04 Oct 2005 17:55:24 -0400, John Nall wrote:

> Howard Winter wrote:
>
> > > I recently bought a
> >T23 that's approaching its 4th birthday, for what I consider a bargain price (about the same as 2 ICD2s!) and
> >having changed the US keyboard for a UK one . . . .
> >
>
> What in the world would be the difference between a US keyboard and a UK
> keyboard??  You type "gas" and it comes out "petrol?"  Stuff like that?  :-)

No, the grammar-checker does that - the keyboard automatically inserts a "u" after the second "o" in words like "colour" :-)))

There are a number of differences - we have an extra key between Z and left-shift for a start ("\", shifted: "¦"), the punctuation is moved around (eg. shifted 2 and 3 are " and £ instead of @ and # on yours), the <Enter> key is two rows deep and narrower than yours (I often end up hitting "\" on US keyboards when I go for <Enter>).  Oh, in case it doesn't travel, the shifted 3 is the Pound-Sterling sign, which isn't present on a US keyboard - I think everything else is actually present on both.  The above is true of all US/UK keyboards, but a difference I don't quite understand in the Thinkpad T23 keyboards is that the US one has more words on it - Backspace, Enter, Shift, Tab, keys all have those words on them on the US keyboard, but just symbols on the UK one.  Perhaps this reflects the characteristics of road signs in the two places?  :-)

Most countries have their own keyboard layout - at least the letters are all the same on yours and ours!  German keyboards have the top row: QWERTZUIOP and French ones have: AZERTYUIOP - a nightmare if you're trying to use one in a hurry (I had to file a flight plan like that over there once).

The biggest problem when using the "wrong" US/UK keyboard is that @ and " are transposed, so email addresses trip you up, and "\" is on the far side of the keyboard, so URLs are a problem.

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England

2005\10\04@184027 by Howard Winter

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On Tue, 4 Oct 2005 23:23:49 +0100 (BST), sergio masci wrote:

> On Tue, 4 Oct 2005, John Nall wrote:
>...<
> > What in the world would be the difference between a US keyboard and a UK
> > keyboard??  You type "gas" and it comes out "petrol?"  Stuff like that?  :-)
>
> No it has the keys in the right place. It also has a key with the local
> currency symbol which can be useful :-)

Oh yes, I forgot to mention that the crossed-L that we use for Sterling was also used by Italy for Lire - but now they and others use the Euro, the symbol for that is on 4, activated by holding <AltGr> - the right-hand <Alt> key, which I see doesn't say "Gr" on the US keyboard!  If it travels, this is the Euro symbol between these pointy brackets: > < and this is the Sterling symbol: >£<

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England

2005\10\04@190948 by olin piclist

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> No it has the keys in the right place. It also has a key with the
> local currency symbol which can be useful :-)

And when it breaks you have to bring it 'round the shop for the lads to sort
out.


*****************************************************************
Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts
(978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com

2005\10\04@191647 by John Nall

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Olin Lathrop wrote:

>> And when it breaks you have to bring it 'round the shop for the lads to sort
>out.
>  
>
Right.  :-)  Actually, I have the greatest respect for the cousins
(after all, my ancestors came from there, although perhaps "fled one
step ahead of the law" might be a better description).  But I made the
mistake of buying an MG Midget one time.  It is the only car that I have
ever had which would break while just sitting still -- parked.

John

2005\10\04@192349 by Marcel Duchamp

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Olin Lathrop wrote:
>>No it has the keys in the right place. It also has a key with the
>>local currency symbol which can be useful :-)
>
>
> And when it breaks you have to bring it 'round the shop for the lads to sort
> out.

And the lads, they will fit 'er with the best!

2005\10\04@205109 by Chen Xiao Fan

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Lenovo takes over the people of IBM PC divisions along with
the research centers in USA/JAPAN as well as the ShenZhen
plant which used to produce 50% of IBM ThinkPad notebooks.
The plant was a joint venture of IBM and Great Wall Group
but now is under control of Lenovo (used to be called
Legend Group). Therefore I guess ThinkPad will still be
a top brand in the notebook world and one still need to
pay the premiums for a ThinkPad.

Learning from the lessons of my poor Dell 600M, my brother
decided to buy a IBM T41 last year. It is great even though
the price is higher. Dell is not that cheaper outside USA
and the quality of Dell notebooks really sucks. Dell
desktops are quite okay though.

Still put this into the greater context of PC industry,
who wins and who lose? Cheaper (read lousier) vendors like
Dell wins and IBM is out. IBM is out of the harddisk
business and now out of the PC business. Who knows what
is the next sector it will lose? Without the access to
the desktop, it will lose the server business and the
service business later. Let's wait for another 10 years
and see how IBM performs.

With globalization, cheaper goods will be all over the place
and the quality standard will of course suffer when the
mass market consumers prefer to buy cheaper stuffs.

Another thing is that I do not think buying a 2nd-hand
notebooks will be a good idea unless you are a collectors.
3 (at most 4) years is the average economic life of a
desktop/notebook.

Regards,
Xiaofan



{Original Message removed}

2005\10\05@003303 by Howard Winter

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On Tue, 04 Oct 2005 16:25:19 -0700, Marcel Duchamp wrote:

> Olin Lathrop wrote:
> >>No it has the keys in the right place. It also has a key with the
> >>local currency symbol which can be useful :-)
> >
> >
> > And when it breaks you have to bring it 'round the shop for the lads to sort
> > out.
>
> And the lads, they will fit 'er with the best!

Y'know, this is going right past me - it must be something I haven't seen!  Anyone want to let me in on it?

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2005\10\05@041746 by Alan B. Pearce

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>Most countries have their own keyboard layout - at
>least the letters are all the same on yours and ours!
>German keyboards have the top row: QWERTZUIOP and
>French ones have: AZERTYUIOP - a nightmare if you're
>trying to use one in a hurry (I had to file a flight
>plan like that over there once).

Heh, great fun that is. Had to use a French keyboard on a machine we had
supplied as part of a test fixture - started off trying to figure out why we
couldn't log in. Took a moment or two to figure out that I was using the
lettering as shown on the keys, but it was mapped as a UK keyboard. We ended
up using a laptop we had with us to look at what the key tops should be for
our machine.

The joys of not being a touch typist ... ;)

2005\10\05@042236 by Alan B. Pearce

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>> Olin Lathrop wrote:
>> >>No it has the keys in the right place. It also has a key
>> >> with the local currency symbol which can be useful :-)
>> >
>> >
>> > And when it breaks you have to bring it 'round the shop for the lads to
sort
>> > out.
>>
>? And the lads, they will fit 'er with the best!
>
>Y'know, this is going right past me - it must be something
>I haven't seen!  Anyone want to let me in on it?

Me too - sounds like something from the Blues Brothers.

2005\10\05@095747 by Gerhard Fiedler

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John Nall wrote:

> What in the world would be the difference between a US keyboard and a UK
> keyboard??  

- www.microsoft.com/globaldev/reference/keyboards.mspx
List of Windows keyboard layouts (quite a few), with Shift/CapsLock/AltGr
animation. Requires IE to view.

- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keyboard_layout
Collection of a number of layouts (no Shift/CapsLock/AltGr states).

- http://www.visi.com/~pmk/evolved.html
Interesting analysis of layout efficiency.

- www.acm.vt.edu/%7Ejmaxwell/dvorak/compare.html
Finger travel calculator, comparing QWERTY and Dvorak layouts (Dvorak is
the /other/ US layout :)

Gerhard

2005\10\05@100552 by olin piclist

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Howard Winter wrote:
>>> And when it breaks you have to bring it 'round the shop for the
>>> lads to sort out.
>>
>> And the lads, they will fit 'er with the best!
>
> Y'know, this is going right past me - it must be something I haven't
> seen!  Anyone want to let me in on it?

He, he.  I was wondering if any of the Brits on this list would get it.  I'm
pretty sure all Yanks get it, but don't know about Aussies and Kiwis.


*****************************************************************
Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts
(978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com

2005\10\05@103518 by olin piclist

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Alan B. Pearce wrote:
> Heh, great fun that is. Had to use a French keyboard on a machine we
> had supplied as part of a test fixture - started off trying to figure
> out why we couldn't log in. Took a moment or two to figure out that I
> was using the lettering as shown on the keys, but it was mapped as a
> UK keyboard. We ended up using a laptop we had with us to look at
> what the key tops should be for our machine.

About 20 years ago I was working for a company where we all had dumb
terminals connecter via 19.2Kbaud to the central computer running a time
sharing operating system.  Sometimes when I walked away from my desk for a
minute I'd find a particular person sitting at my terminal.  This was
annoying because he was difficult to get rid of and of course didn't bother
to log me out and log himself in.  I didn't want to log myself out everytime
I went to the bathroom or whatever, so I switched a few key caps around on
my keyboard, like J and H, G and F, M and N, and a few other a casual
observer might not notice right away.  It didn't bother me since I didn't
look at the key caps when typing anyway.  But it did keep the rifraff off my
terminal.


*****************************************************************
Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts
(978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com

2005\10\05@103747 by olin piclist

face picon face
Alan B. Pearce wrote:
>>>> And when it breaks you have to bring it 'round the shop for the
>>>> lads to sort out.
>>>
>> ? And the lads, they will fit 'er with the best!
>>
>> Y'know, this is going right past me - it must be something
>> I haven't seen!  Anyone want to let me in on it?
>
> Me too - sounds like something from the Blues Brothers.

Ha, ha, ha.  Nope.  Then again you and Howard are the last people likely to
notice.  I'm curious if some of the down under folks like Jinx and Russell
get it.


*****************************************************************
Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts
(978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com

2005\10\05@122605 by David Van Horn

picon face
> I went to the bathroom or whatever, so I switched a few key caps
around on
> my keyboard, like J and H, G and F, M and N, and a few other a casual
> observer might not notice right away.  It didn't bother me since I
didn't
> look at the key caps when typing anyway.  But it did keep the rifraff
off
> my terminal.

I've been known to reverse the wiring to the horizontal or vertical yoke
coils.. Makes for a fun morning with a hung-over co-worker. :)

My Libretto L1 is like that. Japanese keyboard. As long as you
touch-type, everything's fine, but if you look at the keytops, you're
hosed.




2005\10\05@122606 by Howard Winter

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On Wed, 5 Oct 2005 10:37:43 -0400, Olin Lathrop wrote:

> Alan B. Pearce wrote:
> >>>> And when it breaks you have to bring it 'round the shop for the
> >>>> lads to sort out.
> >>>
> >> ? And the lads, they will fit 'er with the best!
> >>
> >> Y'know, this is going right past me - it must be something
> >> I haven't seen!  Anyone want to let me in on it?
> >
> > Me too - sounds like something from the Blues Brothers.
>
> Ha, ha, ha.  Nope.  Then again you and Howard are the last people likely to
> notice.  I'm curious if some of the down under folks like Jinx and Russell
> get it.

The thing is that it *sounds* English (as opposed to American) but I don't recognise it.

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2005\10\05@142036 by Spehro Pefhany

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At 05:26 PM 10/5/2005 +0100, you wrote:

>The thing is that it *sounds* English (as opposed to American) but I don't
>recognise it.

Unless I'm missing a contemporary cultural reference (quite possible),
I believe that's the entire joke.

They *did* tone the faux Right-Pondian down a smidge from the "pip pip old
bean" level.

Best regards,

Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..."            "The Journey is the reward"
spam_OUTspeffTakeThisOuTspaminterlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com
->> Inexpensive test equipment & parts http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZspeff


2005\10\05@142741 by John Nall

picon face
Spehro Pefhany wrote:

>
> > Unless I'm missing a contemporary cultural reference (quite possible),
> I believe that's the entire joke.
>
> They *did* tone the faux Right-Pondian down a smidge from the "pip pip
> old
> bean" level.
>
Well, I thought it was funny (although entirely unexpected, coming from
Olin, because I never thought he had a sense of humor).  But don't know
as I can explain WHY it seemed funny.  It just did,  that's all.  :-)

John

2005\10\05@144832 by Dave Lag

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Who knew Lucas made keyboards?...
:)

Howard Winter wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2005\10\05@145236 by Michael Rigby-Jones

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{Quote hidden}

It sounds a lot like an American trying to do English ;)

Regards

Mike

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2005\10\05@152241 by olin piclist

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Howard Winter wrote:
> The thing is that it *sounds* English (as opposed to American) but I
> don't recognise it.

Americans don't say "bring it 'round", "lads", or "sort out".  These are all
things I've heard on BBC TV programs or from Brits on the PIClist.  Maybe
stringing them all together like that wasn't appropriate (hey, we're just a
bunch of yahoos over here, what do we know), but it sounds unmistakably
British to any American in a way that it's obvious the Brits are being made
fun of.


*****************************************************************
Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts
(978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com

2005\10\05@152740 by David Van Horn

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>
> Who knew Lucas made keyboards?...
> :)

ROTFLMAO!



2005\10\05@154144 by John J. McDonough

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>> Who knew Lucas made keyboards?...
>> :)
>
> ROTFLMAO!

Try as I might, I just can't picture carrying my timing light in the morning
to start up my keybooard.

2005\10\05@154506 by Richard Prosser

picon face
It sounded pretty "English" to a UK-born NZer also.
(But I thought I had missed some special reference also).

RP

On 06/10/05, Olin Lathrop <.....olin_piclistKILLspamspam.....embedinc.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> -

2005\10\05@225042 by Tony Smith

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> to log me out and log himself in.  I didn't want to log myself out
> everytime
> I went to the bathroom or whatever, so I switched a few key caps around on
> my keyboard, like J and H, G and F, M and N, and a few other a casual
> observer might not notice right away.  It didn't bother me since I didn't
> look at the key caps when typing anyway.  But it did keep the rifraff off
> my
> terminal.


There's an old story about someone who found that when he sat down at the
keyboard he could log in ok, but not when he tried it standing up.

After much head scratching and general dismantling of gear, the problem
was determined to be that he would touch type when sitting, but did hunt &
peck when standing.  Of course, some keytops had been switched (like M &
N).  When standing, he had to look at the keyboard, he got it wrong.  Must
have been at Olin's terminal.

Can't remember who the guy was who figured it out.

Tony

2005\10\06@041633 by Russell McMahon

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>> I went to the bathroom or whatever, so I switched a few key caps
> around on my keyboard, like J and H, G and F, M and N ...


> I've been known to reverse the wiring to the horizontal or vertical
> yoke
> coils.. Makes for a fun morning with a hung-over co-worker. :)

> My Libretto L1 is like that. Japanese keyboard. As long as you
> touch-type, everything's fine, but if you look at the keytops,
> you're
> hosed.

I bought my HP laptop in Vienna. It had German Windows XP which was
extremely challenging, but I've now changed that. But the keyboard has
Z and Y keys swapped, and many of the special characters are marked
wrongly on the keyboard * and locations need to be memorised, and it
has an extra shift key (righht of space bar) that allows you to
accented characters etc, and ... . Also abbrevtaions are in German -
pos1, einfg, entf, strg, ... . All up it's great fun to use.



       RM


* eg / \ ' ; ' @ ~ & * ^ ....

2005\10\07@111248 by Philip Pemberton

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In message <EraseMEE1EMvLa-0007no-00spam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTpop-borzoi.atl.sa.earthlink.net>>          "Howard Winter" <HDRWspamspam_OUTh2org.demon.co.uk> wrote:


> but a difference I don't quite understand in the Thinkpad T23 keyboards is that the US one has more words on
> it - Backspace, Enter, Shift, Tab, keys all have those words on them on the US keyboard, but just symbols on
> the UK one.  Perhaps this reflects the characteristics of road signs in the two places?  :-)

ISO standards that the 'Merkins don't follow (I hear they prefer the ANSI
stuff)?
ISTR all the usual electronics-related symbols are covered by ISO 60416 or
something like that. American gear usually has the "POWER ON" text over the
power switch, European stuff usually has the ISO "I in an O" symbol.

Later.
-- Phil.                              | Acorn RiscPC600 SA220 64MB+6GB 100baseT
@spam@philpemKILLspamspamphilpem.me.uk              | Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxe R2 512MB+100GB
http://www.philpem.me.uk/          | Panasonic CF-25 Mk.2 Toughbook
... Only in your dreams, Commander. þ Tro

2005\10\07@112253 by Philip Pemberton

face picon face
In message <3B8AEFFADD3DD4118F8100508BACEC2C0A2892B1@spex>
         Chen Xiao Fan <KILLspamxiaofanKILLspamspamsg.pepperl-fuchs.com> wrote:

> Learning from the lessons of my poor Dell 600M, my brother
> decided to buy a IBM T41 last year. It is great even though
> the price is higher. Dell is not that cheaper outside USA
> and the quality of Dell notebooks really sucks. Dell
> desktops are quite okay though.

Have you ever tried to repair a Dell desktop? You should try it sometime. It
will give you a whole new perspective on computer repair when you try and
replace a Dell PSU.

Oh, and if you think Thinkpads are expensive, go look at the price of a
Panasonic Toughbook.. Upwards of £2,000, but fully ruggedised and built like
the proverbial brick outhouse.

> IBM is out of the harddisk business and now out of the PC business.

They gave up on HDDs because of the 75GXP fiasco. Drives failing left, right
and centre. Maxtor are at it now - I used to recommend their drives because
I'd never seen one fail in "reasonable" service (i.e. not kicked or banged
around). Nowadays I'm not so sure.
Never had a Seagate fail completely though... I've got a 2GB Medalist that's
sticktioned, and a 6GB U4 in my RiscPC. All working perfectly.

> Another thing is that I do not think buying a 2nd-hand
> notebooks will be a good idea unless you are a collectors.
> 3 (at most 4) years is the average economic life of a
> desktop/notebook.
Panasonic CF-25 Toughbook. Manufactured in 1997, P133 CPU. Quirky, but damn
hard to kill and fine for Win98, Office 97 and MinGW. Also runs Linux VERY
nicely once you get the PCMCIA config right.
Yes it's a little slow, yes I'd like a faster laptop, but in general it does
the job. A Thinkpad or a Toughbook would be nice, but on a student budget
anything's better than nothing.

Later.
-- Phil.                              | Acorn RiscPC600 SA220 64MB+6GB 100baseT
RemoveMEphilpemTakeThisOuTspamphilpem.me.uk              | Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxe R2 512MB+100GB
http://www.philpem.me.uk/          | Panasonic CF-25 Mk.2 Toughbook
... Today is the tomorrow you worried about yesterday

2005\10\07@114256 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
IMHO nowadays Linux requires better computer to run than Windows XP
and brodband connection to patch just like Windows if you are running
the latest Linux versions. Latest mainstream Linux versions are really
not for slow computers now.

And yes I bought the Dell 600M when I was a poor student in a very
nice and very rich place (Irvine CA). If I were not a studnet at the time,
I would probably buy a Dell Desktop for US$299 without monitor and buy
a US$70 17" monitor.

Regards,
Xiaofan

On 10/7/05, Philip Pemberton <spamBeGonephilpemspamBeGonespamdsl.pipex.com> wrote:
>
> Panasonic CF-25 Toughbook. Manufactured in 1997, P133 CPU. Quirky, but damn
> hard to kill and fine for Win98, Office 97 and MinGW. Also runs Linux VERY
> nicely once you get the PCMCIA config right.
> Yes it's a little slow, yes I'd like a faster laptop, but in general it does
> the job. A Thinkpad or a Toughbook would be nice, but on a student budget
> anything's better than nothing.
>

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