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'[EE] Inexpensive low-qty (100-250ish) assembly sou'
2007\10\24@090838 by Forrest W Christian

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I would really like to outsource some of the circuit board assembly for
our better-selling products.   However, I have yet to find an assembler
which can even come close to the cost of doing it in-house.  Seems like
everywhere wants more than the parts themselves cost to put them on the
board...

Is there somewhere I haven't looked?

-forrest

2007\10\24@125438 by Carl Denk

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Try Inservco. http://www.inservco.com/
They do smaller jobs, lots of medical equipment like controllers for
MRI's, etc. Top quality, but maybe an overkill for your purposes. They
are located Northern Ohio, and can say unreserved, I would recommend. :)

Forrest W Christian wrote:
> I would really like to outsource some of the circuit board assembly for
> our better-selling products.   However, I have yet to find an assembler
> which can even come close to the cost of doing it in-house.  Seems like
> everywhere wants more than the parts themselves cost to put them on the
> board...
>
> Is there somewhere I haven't looked?
>
> -forrest
>  

2007\10\24@134621 by Funny NYPD

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Agree. For high volume products like the Ipod, most likely the job are send to Asia for low cost. Sometime, Even the design are outsourced to Asia. This makes it hard to get a low cost industry environment here in the USA for small volume products. The BOM cost here is close to Asia, however the labor cost is way too expensive comparing with Asia cost. Feel the same pain here.
Funny



{Original Message removed}

2007\10\24@135155 by Timothy J. Weber

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Forrest W Christian wrote:
> I would really like to outsource some of the circuit board assembly for
> our better-selling products.   However, I have yet to find an assembler
> which can even come close to the cost of doing it in-house.  Seems like
> everywhere wants more than the parts themselves cost to put them on the
> board...
>
> Is there somewhere I haven't looked?

I've had great experience with C&D Assembly in Groton, NY; don't know if
they're as cheap as you'd like, but they were substantially cheaper than
others we'd looked at.

Also, Advanced Circuits is apparently trying to get into the
small-volume assembly business, and I was told a couple of months ago
that they would essentially match any price.
--
Timothy J. Weber
http://timothyweber.org

2007\10\24@140835 by PAUL James
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Forrest,

Have you tried HDA-SMC in Arizona?  Contact info below.

Glenn W. Shomperlen
HDA/SMC
230 S. Siesta Lane
Tempe, AZ  85281
USA
Phone: 480-967-8989 x224
fax: 480-894-2578


Tell him Jim Paul from Colibrys sent you.



                                                       Regards,

                                                         Jim





{Original Message removed}

2007\10\24@155140 by alan smith

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I had the outfit that is associated with Advanced.....not all that cheap actually.  Will they match? Never asked them about it..next time they call I will

"Timothy J. Weber" <spam_OUTtwTakeThisOuTspamtimothyweber.org> wrote:  Forrest W Christian wrote:
> I would really like to outsource some of the circuit board assembly for
> our better-selling products. However, I have yet to find an assembler
> which can even come close to the cost of doing it in-house. Seems like
> everywhere wants more than the parts themselves cost to put them on the
> board...
>
> Is there somewhere I haven't looked?

I've had great experience with C&D Assembly in Groton, NY; don't know if
they're as cheap as you'd like, but they were substantially cheaper than
others we'd looked at.

Also, Advanced Circuits is apparently trying to get into the
small-volume assembly business, and I was told a couple of months ago
that they would essentially match any price.
--
Timothy J. Weber
http://timothyweber.org

2007\10\24@155346 by alan smith

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Parts cost...in general.....are the same domestically USA as they are in Asia.  If the process is automated...never having to be touched....then its as cheap domestic as it is in Asia...in volumes.  Small run protos are always going to be expensive.

Funny NYPD <.....funnynypdKILLspamspam@spam@yahoo.com> wrote:  Agree. For high volume products like the Ipod, most likely the job are send to Asia for low cost. Sometime, Even the design are outsourced to Asia. This makes it hard to get a low cost industry environment here in the USA for small volume products. The BOM cost here is close to Asia, however the labor cost is way too expensive comparing with Asia cost. Feel the same pain here.
Funny



{Original Message removed}

2007\10\25@100053 by M. Adam Davis

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You're right at the quantity where it'll probably cost the same as
doing it in-house if you don't have assembly machines.

Lower quantity and in-house is cheaper, higher quantities and local
assemblers are cheaper.

The primary difference between the two is machine setup time/cost.  If
the quantity isn't very high, then this speed bump is too large to
overcome, and hand assembly in the US is very expensive.

If you do find an assembler that gives you a better price than
in-house for this quantity, please let us all know!

I haven't used them yet, but have toured and met with Saline
Lectronics in southeast Michigan.

-Adam

On 10/24/07, Forrest W Christian <forrestcspamKILLspamimach.com> wrote:
> I would really like to outsource some of the circuit board assembly for
> our better-selling products.   However, I have yet to find an assembler
> which can even come close to the cost of doing it in-house.  Seems like
> everywhere wants more than the parts themselves cost to put them on the
> board...
>
> Is there somewhere I haven't looked?
>
> -forrest
> -


'[EE] Inexpensive low-qty (100-250ish) assembly sou'
2007\12\24@161359 by Ray Newman
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part 1 2803 bytes content-type:text/plain; charset="us-ascii" (decoded quoted-printable)

Connector costs in Asia are far less than USA.
BUT
shipping, including customs duty, raises the cost to the same as USA.
ALSO
SE Asia like to sell material in 1,000 pcs minimum.

That is why contract Assembly  in Thailand is 1,000 assemblies minimum.

Even in SE Asia I found that if  I have more than two material suppliers in any one
country it is cheaper to pay an Agent 7% to consolidate shipment from that country
to Thailand for assembly.
The shipping/customs costs mount up quickly but inter-Asia is not so bad.

China requires 10,000 pcs runs minimum runs.
And your design is in jeopardy of being copied.

Thailand IS more expensive than China but the government
prohibits export contract assemblers from selling in Thailand.

IF you can afford your own SMD equipment and your design is mostly SMD
THEN
you can make it for the same price as in SE Asia.
BUT
once you have something that is labor intensive, then SE Asia is cheaper.
Ray



On Wed, 24 Oct 2007 12:53:43 -0700 (PDT), alan smith wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> {Original Message removed}


'[EE] Inexpensive low-qty (100-250ish) assembly sou'
2008\01\28@023925 by Vitaliy
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Ray Newman wrote:
>China requires 10,000 pcs runs minimum runs.

Absolutely not true. There are many small shops in China, and we've had as
few as 250 boards built at a time.

2008\01\28@041726 by Xiaofan Chen

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On 10/25/07, Funny NYPD <EraseMEfunnynypdspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTyahoo.com> wrote:
> Agree. For high volume products like the Ipod, most likely the
> job are send to Asia for low cost. Sometime, Even the design
> are outsourced to Asia. This makes it hard to get a low cost
> industry environment here in the USA for small volume
> products. The BOM cost here is close to Asia, however the
> labor cost is way too expensive comparing with Asia cost.
> Feel the same pain here.

Often the BOM cost (especially the electronics parts: ICs, etc)
can be even cheaper in US comparing to Asia if you insist to use
the same components from the same vendors. But then the other
parts like plastic or metal parts in US are way too expensive.

As for the labor cost, China has an edge. Now some southeast
Asia countries (say Vietnam, Indonesia or Thailand, or even
Malaysia) are even cheaper than east coastal area of China.

That being said, it is not really always cheaper to outsource.
Quality control is very important no matter where the product
is produced. One needs to be careful when choosing the
outsourcing firms.

Xiaofan

2008\01\28@053735 by Apptech

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> As for the labor cost, China has an edge. Now some
> southeast
> Asia countries (say Vietnam, Indonesia or Thailand, or
> even
> Malaysia) are even cheaper than east coastal area of
> China.

I was recently told by a factory owner that Chinese
production worker labour costs about half coastal city rates
only 3 or 4 hours travel inland to the right areas.


       Russell

2008\01\28@065346 by Spehro Pefhany

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At 02:37 AM 1/28/2008, you wrote:
>Ray Newman wrote:
> >China requires 10,000 pcs runs minimum runs.
>
>Absolutely not true. There are many small shops in China, and we've had as
>few as 250 boards built at a time.

Yes, but if you don't have reasonably large quantities, generally the
higher quality suppliers will not be interested, and you'll be dealing
with some much more dubious characters.

Best regards,

Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..."            "The Journey is the reward"
speffspamspam_OUTinterlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com



2008\01\28@074226 by Xiaofan Chen

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On Jan 28, 2008 7:53 PM, Spehro Pefhany <@spam@speffKILLspamspaminterlog.com> wrote:
> At 02:37 AM 1/28/2008, you wrote:
> >Ray Newman wrote:
> > >China requires 10,000 pcs runs minimum runs.
> >
> >Absolutely not true. There are many small shops in China, and we've
> > had as few as 250 boards built at a time.
>
> Yes, but if you don't have reasonably large quantities, generally the
> higher quality suppliers will not be interested, and you'll be dealing
> with some much more dubious characters.

I am not sure if "dubious characters" is really correct. But
if you need ISO9000 or something like that, I think you will be
dealing with bigger companies which may not really be
interested in small build. And many companies will require
that the supplier need to have IS)9000 type of QMS.

In my previous job, none of the qualified PCB suppliers came
from China. It is not that there were no qualified vendors
from China but none of the qualified vendors wanted to deal
with the low quantity of the order and requirement of the boards.

Xiaofan

2008\01\28@111524 by alan smith

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Oh....if management would only understand that.....

Xiaofan Chen <KILLspamxiaofancKILLspamspamgmail.com> wrote:  That being said, it is not really always cheaper to outsource.
Quality control is very important no matter where the product
is produced. One needs to be careful when choosing the
outsourcing firms.

     
---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.

2008\01\28@135915 by Gerhard Fiedler

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Xiaofan Chen wrote:

>> Yes, but if you don't have reasonably large quantities, generally the
>> higher quality suppliers will not be interested, and you'll be dealing
>> with some much more dubious characters.
>
> I am not sure if "dubious characters" is really correct.

Possibly a better way to state this is that for small qualities, the cost
of the "cultural translation" between the USA (or Europe) and China is
probably too high. Bigger Chinese companies that often deal with US or
European customers probably have already acquired some of that "cultural
translation" know-how, but smaller companies generally have fewer resources
for that and less experience. And if you're only interested in a few
hundred boards, your own resources for that "cultural translation" probably
are not that high, either.

And doing something like this without proper "cultural translation" is
bound to create dubious results, mostly independently of the characters
involved :)

Gerhard

2008\01\29@144148 by olin piclist

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Vitaliy wrote:
> There are many small shops in China, and we've had
> as few as 250 boards built at a time.

Would you mind providing contact information on a few?  The place I had been
using for several years for 100-500 piece runs suddenly went flaky and then
stopped responding altogether.  The places that used to do small runs now
don't want to do them anymore, or at least not full turnkey.  Someone has to
buy the parts and put the kit together, so it might as well be someone at
the factory where the labor rate is low and the kit doesn't have to be
shipped anywhere.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.

2008\01\29@151249 by Christopher Cole

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face
On Tue, Jan 29, 2008 at 02:42:39PM -0500, Olin Lathrop wrote:
> Would you mind providing contact information on a few?

Olin,

For electronic assembly, I have used a company called Interactive Engineering
Corp., (which is located right near me) in Akron, Ohio.  They assembled a
small run of prototypes for me a while back, and I was imressed with their
work.  Their facility is good size, and fairly well equipped.  Visit them at:
http://www.4iec.com/

Take care,
-Chris

--
| Christopher Cole, Cole Design and Development               RemoveMEcoleTakeThisOuTspamcoledd.com |
| Embedded Software Development and Electronic Design       http://coledd.com |
| Akron, Ohio, USA                                               800-518-2154 |

2008\01\29@160010 by Carl Denk

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Also in Lagrange, Ohio - middle of Lorain County - Northern Ohio West of
Cleveland does very quality work. a lot for the medical (MRI
controllers, etc.) They also maintain testing and repair for customers.
http://www.inservco.com/

Christopher Cole wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2008\01\29@170407 by olin piclist

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Christopher Cole wrote:
> For electronic assembly, I have used a company called Interactive
> Engineering Corp., (which is located right near me) in Akron, Ohio.
> They assembled a small run of prototypes for me a while back, and I
> was imressed with their work.  Their facility is good size, and
> fairly well equipped.  Visit them at: http://www.4iec.com/

Thanks, but I should have said in China, Vietnam, or anyplace else where the
costs are low.  I know several small shops around here too.  They generally
do very good work and are happy to do low volume, but are 2.5-4x or so more
expensive than going direct to China.

I can't sell my products for reasonable prices and have them manufactured
here.  For example, original local quotes I got for the USBProg were around
$75.  That clearly doesn't work when I sell them for $80.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.

2008\01\29@182828 by TGO Electronica

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You can also try Mexico, a lot closer and with the resources from the US
close at hand.

If you want a quote send me the info and I can get one for you.

Gabriel


{Original Message removed}

2008\01\29@232013 by Forrest W Christian

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Olin Lathrop wrote:
> Thanks, but I should have said in China, Vietnam, or anyplace else where the
> costs are low.  I know several small shops around here too.  They generally
> do very good work and are happy to do low volume, but are 2.5-4x or so more
> expensive than going direct to China.

I basically gave up and built my own assembly line....  It's sad when
it's cheaper to buy all the equipment (used) needed to do the assembly
yourself than to outsource it.

Just curious, what type of pricing were you getting for the assembly
costs for the USBprog?   Right now, we're hand placing, but I have been
thinking about getting a P&P place machine to be able to pick up some of
these low-end production run type of jobs, and keep the line busier than
a few hours a month.

-forrest

2008\01\30@080817 by olin piclist

face picon face
Forrest W Christian wrote:
> Just curious, what type of pricing were you getting for the assembly
> costs for the USBprog?

I was paying around $30 each for built units delivered to my office.  I
still had a few things to do after that, plus there was some fallout, so my
cost was a bit higher.  I figured each finished tested unit cost me just
under $40.  This next run I was going to push some of the testing to the
manufacturer by providing a jig, but they seem to have fallen off the planet
somehow.

I just got a reply from Futurlec about whether they do small run turnkey.
All they said was that their assembly line was busy right now and they
couldn't take on any more work.  It's aggrevating when people don't answer
the question asked.  It's useful to know they can't handle a new order right
now, but I still don't know if they do small run turnkey in general, and if
so when they would take on such work again.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.

2008\01\30@082417 by Martin Klingensmith

face
flavicon
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Surely your's or your technicians' time must be worth something. It's
still cheaper for you to do this in-house?
-
Martin

Forrest W Christian wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2008\01\30@124003 by John Chung

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They do take small runs. Yes I know how you feel when
they don answer to the point.... At least their PCB
service is up and running.

John


{Quote hidden}

********************************************************************
> Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts,
> http://www.embedinc.com/products
> (978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since
> 2000.
> --

2008\01\30@161403 by Zik Saleeba

face picon face
On Jan 31, 2008 12:08 AM, Olin Lathrop <spamBeGoneolin_piclistspamBeGonespamembedinc.com> wrote:
>
> I just got a reply from Futurlec about whether they do small run turnkey.
> ...  It's aggrevating when people don't answer the question asked.

Your experience with Futurlec customer service matches mine. In my
case I ordered some boards. I wasn't in a hurry so it didn't bother me
when they hadn't shown up after a couple of weeks. After a few more
weeks I was wondering what had happened. I sent several emails but had
no response whatsoever. After a few more weeks the boards randomly
turned up one day and they were great. But I'll never use Futurlec for
boards again.

Cheers,
Zik

2008\01\30@183208 by Martin K

face
flavicon
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Zik Saleeba wrote:
> case I ordered some boards. I wasn't in a hurry so it didn't bother me
> when they hadn't shown up after a couple of weeks. After a few more
> weeks I was wondering what had happened. I sent several emails but had
> no response whatsoever. After a few more weeks the boards randomly
> turned up one day and they were great. But I'll never use Futurlec for
> boards again.
>
> Cheers,
> Zik
>  
> Your experience with Futurlec customer service matches mine. In my


Since you bring it up, I've never had trouble ordering boards from
Futurlec. No, they aren't the fastest, but I've always gotten a response
to my emails.
-
Martin

2008\01\30@195504 by Forrest W. Christian

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Olin Lathrop wrote:
> I just got a reply from Futurlec about whether they do small run
> turnkey. All they said was that their assembly line was busy right now
> and they couldn't take on any more work.
I have had a really bad experience with Futurlec and counterfeit
parts....  to date I haven't been able to get any traction wiht them
fixing it either.

Google "Futurlec counterfeit" and see that I'm not the only one with
this experience.

-forrest

2008\01\30@195857 by Forrest W. Christian

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Martin Klingensmith wrote:
> Surely your's or your technicians' time must be worth something. It's
> still cheaper for you to do this in-house?
>  
Yes.   It is (amazingly).

By the time I pay setup, kitting, insertion/placement and assembly fees
it ends up being that I can assemble them in-house for about half the
cost.   Especially since I am able to get enconomies of scale across
multiple products by using the same parts in all of my designs... I.E.
prefer the same value resistors, diodes, etc.

With the through hole, I'm standardizing on a specific panel width as
well so I can run any of my assemblies without re-tooling.

The problem with low-volume for board houses seems that I have to pay
someone to re-tool for my run, so it costs more.   With my own assembly
line, and taking pains to limit or eliminate re-tool costs between
products, I can keep my costs low.

-forrest


'[EE] Inexpensive low-qty (100-250ish) assembly sou'
2008\02\01@015406 by Carey Fisher
face picon face
Olin Lathrop wrote:
> Thanks, but I should have said in China, Vietnam, or anyplace else where the
> costs are low.  I know several small shops around here too.  They generally
> do very good work and are happy to do low volume, but are 2.5-4x or so more
> expensive than going direct to China.
Olin, How do you find assembly operations in China, Vietnam, etc?  Ever
use Alibaba E-commerce conglomeration site?

*Carey Fisher*

2008\02\03@203432 by Vitaliy

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Olin Lathrop wrteo;
> Would you mind providing contact information on a few?  The place I had
> been
> using for several years for 100-500 piece runs suddenly went flaky and
> then
> stopped responding altogether.  The places that used to do small runs now
> don't want to do them anymore, or at least not full turnkey.  Someone has
> to
> buy the parts and put the kit together, so it might as well be someone at
> the factory where the labor rate is low and the kit doesn't have to be
> shipped anywhere.

Olin, please contact me off-list: myfirstname at scantool dot net.

Vitaliy


'[EE] Inexpensive low-qty (100-250ish) assembly sou'
2008\04\22@142032 by olin piclist
face picon face
> Christopher Cole wrote:
>> For electronic assembly, I have used a company called Interactive
>> Engineering Corp., (which is located right near me) in Akron, Ohio.
>> They assembled a small run of prototypes for me a while back, and I
>> was imressed with their work.  Their facility is good size, and
>> fairly well equipped. Visit them at:
>> http://www.4iec.com/">http://www.4iec.com
>
> Thanks, but I should have said in China, Vietnam, or anyplace else where
> the costs are low.  I know several small shops around here too.  They
> generally do very good work and are happy to do low volume, but are 2.5-4x
> or so more expensive than going direct to China.

I just wanted to follow up on this old thread.  I have meanwhile gone thru a
production run with Data Tehnik in Serbia and was very pleased.  The
communication was way better than even the best manufacturers in China that
I have dealt with.  This was a small (100 unit) run that was full turnkey.
They subbed out the PC board fab to a place in Macedonia, then put together
the kit, assembled the boards, and tested the built units.  I sent them
software, a jig, and instructions for testing.  The resulting units are well
made and basically directly shippable to customers.

The per unit price was about 1/4 more than a year earlier for the same
product from China.  However, this run included unit testing, no fallouts,
and no screwups to fix afterwards.  In the end my total cost per shippable
unit was actually a little less than the "cheap" run a year earlier from
China.

My main contact at Data Tehnik is Djula Djarmati, who sometimes also posts
to the PIClist.  He can be reached at djula021-sbb-co-yu (replace first "-"
with @, others with ".").


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.

2008\04\22@180220 by Dwayne Reid

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face
Who sourced the parts?  Did you supply or were they able to meet or
beat your best prices?

dwayne

At 12:21 PM 4/22/2008, Olin Lathrop wrote:

>They subbed out the PC board fab to a place in Macedonia, then put together
>the kit, assembled the boards, and tested the built units.


--
Dwayne Reid   <TakeThisOuTdwaynerEraseMEspamspam_OUTplanet.eon.net>
Trinity Electronics Systems Ltd    Edmonton, AB, CANADA
(780) 489-3199 voice          (780) 487-6397 fax
http://www.trinity-electronics.com
Custom Electronics Design and Manufacturing

2008\04\22@182533 by olin piclist

face picon face
Dwayne Reid wrote:
> Who sourced the parts?  Did you supply or were they able to meet or
> beat your best prices?

As I said in a part that you snipped:

>>This was a small (100 unit) run that was full turnkey.

********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.

2008\04\22@204647 by Dwayne Reid

flavicon
face
At 04:27 PM 4/22/2008, Olin Lathrop wrote:

>As I said in a part that you snipped:
>
> >>This was a small (100 unit) run that was full turnkey.

Ahh. . .

I hadn't understood that you meant that they sourced all the parts
when you said "full turnkey".  Rather, I had expected that to mean
that PCB was assembled, then installed into the product's case and
packed into the individual shipping cartons.  In other words:
finished packages ready for delivery to the customer.

Many thanks!

dwayne

--
Dwayne Reid   <RemoveMEdwaynerspamTakeThisOuTplanet.eon.net>
Trinity Electronics Systems Ltd    Edmonton, AB, CANADA
(780) 489-3199 voice          (780) 487-6397 fax
http://www.trinity-electronics.com
Custom Electronics Design and Manufacturing

2008\04\22@230318 by Bob Axtell

face picon face
I think that folks might be happy with MicroMex. I just discovered that
they will now
do SMT in their Imura (Sonora, Mexico) facility. He has over 100
assemblers, and  I
think (know) he would do a good job. My client in Tucson does not want
any offshore
assembly, because the product is very expensive and MADE IN USA is
important to him.

Look up http://www.MicroMex.com, and tell Marcella  that I told you to look
into Micromex.

--Bob Axtell.


Dwayne Reid wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2008\04\22@233407 by Sean Breheny

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Just curious, Bob: How can they call it MADE IN USA if it is made in Mexico?

Sean


On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 11:02 PM, Bob Axtell <engineerEraseMEspam.....cotse.net> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2008\04\22@235109 by Apptech

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> Just curious, Bob: How can they call it MADE IN USA if it
> is made in Mexico?

They will not know, Senor ...

   R

2008\04\23@010038 by Sean Breheny

face picon face
Hmmm, OK, but he gave "made in USA" as a reason why he cannot do it
"offshore" How would they know it was done off shore any more than in
Mexico?

Sean


On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 11:50 PM, Apptech <EraseMEapptechspamparadise.net.nz> wrote:
> > Just curious, Bob: How can they call it MADE IN USA if it
>  > is made in Mexico?
>
>  They will not know, Senor ...
>
>     R
>
>  --
>

2008\04\23@021026 by Jinx

face picon face
> Just curious, Bob: How can they call it MADE IN USA if it is
> made in Mexico?

Listening to the radio the other night I was reminded of the claim
that goods were made in the city of Usa in Japan so that consumers
might have been misled by MADE IN USA

http://www.snopes.com/business/genius/usa.asp

Possibly goods Made In Mexico do not suffer the Made In China
stigma

2008\04\23@024731 by Apptech

face
flavicon
face
> Possibly goods Made In Mexico do not suffer the Made In
> China
> stigma

That would also apply to Olin's "Made in Serbia" labels.

They are labelled "Made in Serbia" aren't they?*



       Russell

*    FWIW - I liked what Olin recounted enough to copy it on
to several people involved in small scale production. With
any luck his suppliers may get a few more orders.

2008\04\23@081105 by Djula Djarmati

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face
>> Just curious, Bob: How can they call it MADE IN USA if it
>> is made in Mexico?
>
> They will not know, Senor ...

I think the MADE IN... has little to do with the location of manufacture
and they can legally call it MADE IN USA.

The phrase they use for this is something like "the last significant
processing or the most percentage of value". This is strictly controlled
by the Customs since it affects imposed tariffs. If we want to claim
MADE IN SERBIA, we have to submit a MANUFACTURE ORDER document which is
a detailed list of components, processing and labor required for
manufacture with prices and countries of origin. This is much more
important for steel, agricultural and similar products where there are
trade barriers.

If a product is very expensive like Bob said you can claim that the IP
value in the product outweighs the physical/labor value and it is
legally MADE IN USA. This is why mass produced and cheap products are
mostly labeled as made in China, Taiwan, Mexico etc. - the components
and labor price makes for the majority of the value.

We have a product where all mechanical components (quite a lot of them)
are made in Serbia and we manufacture all the electronics, but since
it's very expensive, it is MADE IN SWEDEN. However, they do the final
calibration and testing in Sweden and visit us often to check production
procedures.

Of course, some companies plainly lie.

Djula

2008\04\23@082825 by Djula Djarmati

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face
Dwayne Reid wrote:
> Who sourced the parts?  Did you supply or were they able to meet or
> beat your best prices?
>
> dwayne
>
> At 12:21 PM 4/22/2008, Olin Lathrop wrote:
>
>> They subbed out the PC board fab to a place in Macedonia, then put together
>> the kit, assembled the boards, and tested the built units.

For small runs (<1000) and generic components available from multiple
vendors we usually meet or beat DigiKey prices. We can't beat prices for
single source US components like MICROCHIP, ALLEGRO, MAXIM etc. We are
probably 10-20% more expensive.

So, if you have a project with few expensive components it makes sense
to get it made locally, but if you have many components (~200 or more)
and just a few expensive ones, it may be worth considering outsourcing.

Djula

2008\04\23@102616 by Tony Smith

flavicon
face
> >> Just curious, Bob: How can they call it MADE IN USA if it
> is made in
> >> Mexico?
> >
> > They will not know, Senor ...
>
> I think the MADE IN... has little to do with the location of
> manufacture and they can legally call it MADE IN USA.
>
>
> If a product is very expensive like Bob said you can claim
> that the IP value in the product outweighs the physical/labor
> value and it is legally MADE IN USA. This is why mass
> produced and cheap products are mostly labeled as made in
> China, Taiwan, Mexico etc. - the components and labor price
> makes for the majority of the value.


That's just bizarre.  So bizarre it's probably true: "I thought long & hard
about this, and my thinking is expensive, therefore it's made here, not in
China".

I don't think it'd wash in Australia, I've seen a lot of Australian
companies put "Designed in Oz, Made in China" on the box.

Maybe 'Made in USA' means 'Made in the Upper Section of the Americas'?

Tony

2008\04\23@102808 by Bob Axtell

face picon face
Sean Breheny wrote:
> Just curious, Bob: How can they call it MADE IN USA if it is made in Mexico?
>
> Sean
>  
Nothing of my clients' is made in Mexico. That's why they DON'T use any
services of my friends in Mexico.
I guess I wasn't very clear.

I just think they have a good assembly house (someone was asking for
offshore assembly) so I mentioned
them (MicroMex).

--Bob

2008\04\23@104029 by Bob Axtell

face picon face
Tony Smith wrote:
{Quote hidden}

For all of us in electronics, the label actually means little. Not one
capacitor  I know of is made in the USA.
There _is_ a military resistor factory in the USA. For everything else,
Mexico then Singapore are the places
closest to the USA for every IC being made that I know of..

About the only way for a product to be truly MADE IN THE USA is for a
tree branch in Georgia to be cut
off and a wooden whistle carved from it.

--Bob Axtell

2008\04\23@111752 by Sean Breheny

face picon face
Hi Bob,

I thought that there were a few high-end chip fabs in the US (AMD,
Intel, etc.). Am I wrong?

Sean


On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 10:39 AM, Bob Axtell <RemoveMEengineerEraseMEspamEraseMEcotse.net> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> -

2008\04\23@113856 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>I thought that there were a few high-end chip fabs in the US
>(AMD, Intel, etc.). Am I wrong?

I think you will find they package the chips offshore.

2008\04\23@114632 by Herbert Graf

flavicon
face

On Wed, 2008-04-23 at 11:17 -0400, Sean Breheny wrote:
> Hi Bob,
>
> I thought that there were a few high-end chip fabs in the US (AMD,
> Intel, etc.). Am I wrong?

There are quite a few fabs in the US. That said, they aren't the leading
edge in feature size. I don't know what your definition of "high end"
is. If by "high end" you mean state of the art in feature size then no,
I don't think there are anymore at the leading edge in the states (by
leading edge I mean feature sizes below 90nm, others might disagree with
this line).

Most of the higher end (smaller feature size) fabs are in Asia. Some are
in Germany (AMD). I believe Israel also?

TTYL

2008\04\23@121122 by Bob Axtell

face picon face
Herbert Graf wrote:
> On Wed, 2008-04-23 at 11:17 -0400, Sean Breheny wrote:
>  
>> Hi Bob,
>>
>> I thought that there were a few high-end chip fabs in the US (AMD,
>> Intel, etc.). Am I wrong?
>>    
>
> There are quite a few fabs in the US. That said, they aren't the leading
> edge in feature size. I don't know what your definition of "high end"
> is. If by "high end" you mean state of the art in feature size then no,
> I don't think there are anymore at the leading edge in the states (by
> leading edge I mean feature sizes below 90nm, others might disagree with
> this line).
>
> Most of the higher end (smaller feature size) fabs are in Asia. Some are
> in Germany (AMD). I believe Israel also?
>
> TTYL
>  
Israel is a world-leader in battery technology (Tadiran) and medical
research  (diabetes in particular).
There ARE a few prototype wafer shops in the USA; even Microchip has a
tiny lab in Chandler. But the
cost of labor in the USA is still too high for a real production line to
be located in the USA (or any other high-tax
country, for that matter). But if the $USD falls much further, it will
turn around.

--Bob A

2008\04\23@122312 by Eoin Ross

flavicon
face
I think there is a push to keep some fab houses in the US due to Department of Defense not wanting things made offshore - can't remember where I read that, but it was sometime in the last six months.

>>> RemoveMEmailinglist4spam_OUTspamKILLspamfarcite.net 23 Apr 08 11:46:02 >>>

On Wed, 2008-04-23 at 11:17 -0400, Sean Breheny wrote:
> Hi Bob,
>
> I thought that there were a few high-end chip fabs in the US (AMD,
> Intel, etc.). Am I wrong?

There are quite a few fabs in the US. That said, they aren't the leading
edge in feature size. I don't know what your definition of "high end"
is. If by "high end" you mean state of the art in feature size then no,
I don't think there are anymore at the leading edge in the states (by
leading edge I mean feature sizes below 90nm, others might disagree with
this line).

Most of the higher end (smaller feature size) fabs are in Asia. Some are
in Germany (AMD). I believe Israel also?

TTYL

2008\04\23@125204 by Bob Axtell

face picon face
Eoin Ross wrote:
> I think there is a push to keep some fab houses in the US due to Department of Defense not wanting things made offshore - can't remember where I read that, but it was sometime in the last six months.
>
>  
I am reminded of that Russian Anti-aircraft Missel that failed to
detonate so was captured by the Israelis during the 1967 war. The
control system was Russian made, but
was copy of an American clone. The chips were Texas Instruments clones.
Through a microscope one could see that they had stolen the lithography  
of the chip, 'cause there, right in the middle of a non-busy area, was a
Texas Instruments Logo ["Bug"] (State of Texas  Icon). No shame whatever.

--Bob A

2008\04\23@125352 by Funny NYPD

picon face
As a matter of fact, Israel is a leader in many engineering field, CT, MRI, military products, etc.

In the past, an American Giant (GE, in this particular case) couldn't compete with its little-Israel-competitor in technology and market share on MRI (Magnetic Resonance Imaging) equipments. So the big medical device company just simply bought its Israel competitor and mark the Israel technology "Made in USA".

So, now, the whole world only know that the best MRI technology and product is made in USA. This is not that unusual for big companies here in the US. We don't have the technology? Ok, Who has it? Can we buy it? Ok, let's either buy the whole company or do outsourcing.

Just kidding.

Funny N.
Au Group Electronics, New Bedford, MA, http://www.AuElectronics.com

{Original Message removed}

2008\04\23@132444 by William \Chops\ Westfield

face picon face
> made in USA.

Assembled in the USA by assorted non-citizens working for a Japanese  
company, from ICs
whose wafers were made in Taiwan and packaged in Singapore, after  
having been
designed by a German team working for a US company based on research  
done in Israel by Russian Jewish immigrants, and meeting all RoHS and  
safety requirements established for the European Union...

In a way, it makes me proud to be human.  I hope we're grabbing the  
best from everywhere, rather than foisting the dangerous bits on  
people who don't know any better.  What was that joke about the  
difference between Heaven and Hell ?

BillW



2008\04\23@134843 by Tony Smith

flavicon
face
> > Maybe 'Made in USA' means 'Made in the Upper Section of the
> Americas'?
> >
> > Tony
> >
> >  
> For all of us in electronics, the label actually means
> little. Not one capacitor  I know of is made in the USA.
> There _is_ a military resistor factory in the USA. For
> everything else, Mexico then Singapore are the places closest
> to the USA for every IC being made that I know of..
>
> About the only way for a product to be truly MADE IN THE USA
> is for a tree branch in Georgia to be cut off and a wooden
> whistle carved from it.
>
> --Bob Axtell


There used to be a resistor factory down the road from me (Sydney
Australia).  Probably made its last one in the 1950's.

I suppose 'made' should be replaced with 'assembled' or similar.

Otherwise the label should read 'Made in
China/Taiwan/Malaysia/Singapore/South Korea/et al, this label printed &
applied in the USA. (Paper made in Israel, adhesive in India and toner in
Mexico)'.

Truth in labeling sounds like so much fun.

Tony

2008\04\24@212122 by Rich

picon face
Unless the laws have changed recently, only Puerto Rico can claim Made in
the USA other than the USA proper.
{Original Message removed}

2008\04\24@225759 by Spehro Pefhany

picon face
At 09:20 PM 4/24/2008, you wrote:
>Unless the laws have changed recently, only Puerto Rico can claim Made in
>the USA other than the USA proper.

Apparently Chinese and other Asian nationals (guest workers) labor in the
Marianas to produce garments which legally carry "Made in USA" labels.

Google Saipan Abramoff.

Best regards,

Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..."            "The Journey is the reward"
RemoveMEspeffTakeThisOuTspamspaminterlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com



2008\04\25@043839 by Tamas Rudnai

face picon face
> The control system was Russian made, but was copy of an American clone.

Before the political change most communist countries had access to Russian
and Czech components only. They copied everything including transistors and
diodes but used other marks and Cyrillic documentation. Other countries
copied larger things, like in Hungary we produced PDP-11 clones, and 8 inch
floppy drives. In Bulgaria they produced the CDC disks for that, also they
copied Apple II. Well, we had no other choice because of the embargo, and it
was easier to copy than develop a new one I suppose. In the other hand
Russia had a great engineering, for example I had a long wave receiver for
couple of years used in submarines, and it was just a great device.

Tamas



On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 5:50 PM, Bob Axtell <EraseMEengineerspamspamspamBeGonecotse.net> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

> -

2008\04\25@083301 by Carl Denk

flavicon
face
Yea, and a lot of material comes China via Mexico with made in Mexico.
Not enforced because, other material goes USA to Cuba via Mexico, and
nothing said either, guess if one nothing said, other is the trade off.

Spehro Pefhany wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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