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'[EE] IC removing solder'
2005\04\21@121801 by Russell McMahon

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"Solder" that allows removal of complex ICs without fancy hot air
nozzles etc.
Alloys with existing solder rendering it frangible and easily
removable mechanically.
This sort of product has been around for some while.

       http://www.howardelectronics.com/chipquik/products.html

1.    How well does it work?

2.    Seems remarkably expensive. Probably a relatively low cost
material. Has anyone got any idea what it is?

Presumably (but maybe not) a low melting point and some other
properties
Antimony  - too high
Pewter?    550F

Here's some at under 212F http://www.atlanticmetals.com/lowmelt.htm

Gallium sounds promising http://www.answers.com/topic/gallium

Indium. Interesting
http://www.aimsolder.com/product_line.cfm?product=specialtymaterials


       RM

2005\04\21@130946 by Dennis Crawley

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Russell McMahon <spam_OUTapptechTakeThisOuTspamparadise.net.nz> wrote:
> Presumably (but maybe not) a low melting point and some other
> properties
> Antimony  - too high
> Pewter?    550F

Mercury?

Dennis Crawley


2005\04\21@135722 by Mike Hord

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> > Presumably (but maybe not) a low melting point and some other
> > properties
> > Antimony  - too high
> > Pewter?    550F
>
> Mercury?
>
> Dennis Crawley

Probably too low.  Also, mercury is considered hazardous waste
cleanup crew toxic these days- in the US, I hear stories on a
monthly basis about a high school being shut down and evacuated
upon discovery of an old container of mercury in a disused physics
or chemistry cabinet.

Mike H.

2005\04\21@142946 by Mike Hawkshaw

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> Russell McMahon
> Sent: 21 April 2005 17:18
> To: PIC List
> Subject: [EE] IC removing solder
>
>
> "Solder" that allows removal of complex ICs without fancy hot air
> nozzles etc.
> Alloys with existing solder rendering it frangible and easily
> removable mechanically.
> This sort of product has been around for some while.

When I want to get through hole devices out, without damage to the device
(if this doesn't matter, just cut the legs off!) I suck out as much solder
as I can, and then re-flow all the joints with plenty of normal low metling
point solder, finnaly sucking that out (using a high temp bit) does the job
very nicely.

This works very well; it is a trivial job to get 40 pin devices out of
double sided boards with no damage to either the chip or the board.

I would think that their product is a very low melting point solder.

Cheers...Mike.

2005\04\21@144146 by Rich Mulvey

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Russell McMahon wrote:

> "Solder" that allows removal of complex ICs without fancy hot air
> nozzles etc.
> Alloys with existing solder rendering it frangible and easily
> removable mechanically.
> This sort of product has been around for some while.
>
>        http://www.howardelectronics.com/chipquik/products.html
>
> 1.    How well does it work?
>
> 2.    Seems remarkably expensive. Probably a relatively low cost
> material. Has anyone got any idea what it is?


If I recall correctly, it's based on Wood's Metal, which melts at 158
degrees f.

The stuff works remarkably well, though, as you note, it's also
incredibly expensive when bought from the ChipQuik folks.

- Rich


2005\04\21@144716 by Ake Hedman

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>I hear stories on a
>monthly basis about a high school being shut down and evacuated
>upon discovery of an old container of mercury in a disused physics
>or chemistry cabinet.


It is strange how old time chemists could live so long  in the light of how we look today at chemicals that was in common use in the daily lab work at the time. Most old chemist  had taste as one of the properties of a substance.  Not so long a ago people played with mercury.  But I guess with sugar replacement chemicals and other strange thing in our food today I guess we are worse off today.

/Ake

Mike Hord wrote:

{Quote hidden}

--  ---
Ake Hedman (YAP - Yet Another Programmer)
eurosource, Brattbergavägen 17, 820 50 LOS, Sweden
Phone: (46) 657 413430 Cellular: (46) 73 84 84 102
Company home: http://www.eurosource.se      Kryddor/Te/Kaffe: http://www.brattberg.com
Personal homepage: http://www.eurosource.se/akhe
Automated home: http://www.vscp.org

2005\04\21@174834 by Russell McMahon

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> If I recall correctly, it's based on Wood's Metal, which melts at
> 158 degrees f.
>
> The stuff works remarkably well, though, as you note, it's also
> incredibly expensive when bought from the ChipQuik folks.

Woods Metal
Bi50/Pb25/Cd12.5/Sn12.5

Not nice toxicity wise.

And GBP162 per 200 grams as low temperature solder!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Appears to be used for ctyogenic temperature joints that thermo cycle
well.

   http://www.oxford-instrumentsdirect.com/product.asp?catalog_name=superconductivity&product_id=C4-203&cookie%5Ftest=1


Unrelated, but very nice list of metals with modelling uses and their
properties.

       http://www.starwon.com.au/~pknife/metals.htm




       RM

2005\04\21@181228 by Eric Jorgensen

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Might be worth some experimenting.

I checked a couple MSDSs and Woods' Metal is:

Bismuth   50%
Lead      25%
Tin       12.5%
Cadmium   12.5%

All fairly nasty heavy metals that should be handled
with some thought.

You can buy it at a number of places on the web for
about $12/25grams or $30/100g. Unfortunately, it is
not going to come in a nice 0.032" dia. or less wire.
It will probably be a little ingot or something. Maybe
it would be possible to shave off long slivers for use
in solder removal. Wonder if a guy could make a little
extruder...Chipquik starting to look pretty good at
this point...

Chipquik costs $15 for 2.5' of the stuff. I weighed
10' of 0.032" solder on a postal scale and got
slightly less than 1 ounce (about 25g). Not very
accurate, but within an order of magnitude. So
Chipquik costs about $60/25grams. But I think it comes
in the traditional solder wire form.

Worth looking around, though.



Eric
KE6US

--- Rich Mulvey <.....richKILLspamspam@spam@mulveyfamily.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

www.howardelectronics.com/chipquik/products.html
{Quote hidden}

> --

2005\04\21@235025 by William Chops Westfield

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>>
> www.howardelectronics.com/chipquik/products.html
>>>
>>>
According to here:
http://www.howardelectronics.com/chipquik/smdrepar.html

Chip Quik    48% Tin, 28% Lead, 21% Indium, 3% Bismuth
Melts at 136 F (!)  (that's "touchable", pretty much.)

Indium is comparable to silver in cost; you can get it on eBay pretty
regularly for about $1/gram.  (Gallium goes for about twice that.)

It's not quite so simple as being a low-temperature alloy.  You also
want it to REMAIN a low-temp alloy after it's been mixed with the lead
and tin from the regular solder you're trying to remove.

Indium and Gallium are fun.  There are some alloys thereof that are
liquid
at room temperature: 75.5%Ga/24.5In is liquid down to 16C, and with some
tin and zinc you can get liquid down to 7.6C.  It's not quite as much
fun
to play with as mercury, cause it tends to wet glass/etc instead of
having
that reverse-capillary action thing going on.   But it's still fun.  I'm
not sure it's worth $2/gram to play with, but...

Lots of info at http://www.indium.com (Indium corp of America.)

BillW

2005\04\22@040036 by ThePicMan

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At 20.50 2005.04.21 -0700, you wrote:

>>www.howardelectronics.com/chipquik/products.html
>>>>
>According to here:
>http://www.howardelectronics.com/chipquik/smdrepar.html
>
>Chip Quik    48% Tin, 28% Lead, 21% Indium, 3% Bismuth
>Melts at 136 F (!)  (that's "touchable", pretty much.)

I don't understand one detail: when Chipquik melts, with it melts also
the sn/pb that the PCB already contains? But doesn't the sn/pb melts
anyway at *its own* temperature?
The net melting point must be the one of combined Chipquik + sn/pb, not?


{Quote hidden}

Is it administered by the American Indians? ;)




>BillW
>-

2005\04\22@050638 by Michael Rigby-Jones

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{Quote hidden}

The whole point of Chipquik is to form an alloy with the existing solder, considerably lowering it's melting point.  If you have little experience with metalurgy, it's a confusing concept that an alloy of metals can have a lower melting point then any of the individual metals by themselves. e.g. the melting points of ChipQuicks base metals are:

Indium 156.6 °C (313.88 °F)
Bismuth 271.3 °C (520.3 °F)
Lead 327.46 °C (621.43 °F)
Tin 231.93 °C (449.47 °F)

With these combined in the correct ratios, the melting point is just 57.8 °C (136 °F)

Regards

Mike

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2005\04\22@053440 by William Chops Westfield

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On Apr 22, 2005, at 1:35 AM, ThePicMan wrote:

> I don't understand one detail: when Chipquik melts, with it melts also
> the sn/pb that the PCB already contains? But doesn't the sn/pb melts
> anyway at *its own* temperature?
> The net melting point must be the one of combined Chipquik + sn/pb,
> not?

I don't think so.  I don't know a lot about metalurgy, but I'm pretty
sure
you can make lead/tin and lead/antimony allows without ever heating
things
up to the melting temperature of pure tin or antimony.  Effectively,
your
lower-melting-point alloy DISSOLVES the other metals...

BillW

2005\04\22@054853 by ThePicMan

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{Quote hidden}

Very interesting subject and great explanation, thanks!


>Regards
>
>Mike

2005\04\22@062127 by Russell McMahon

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>>Chip Quik    48% Tin, 28% Lead, 21% Indium, 3% Bismuth
>>Melts at 136 F (!)  (that's "touchable", pretty much.)

> I don't understand one detail: when Chipquik melts, with it melts
> also
> the sn/pb that the PCB already contains? But doesn't the sn/pb melts
> anyway at *its own* temperature?

It's not JUST melting point that counts but it seemed to me that that
would be a significant factor when I suggested it. The most important
feature is (arguably) that the resultant alloy be structurally unsound
and able to be picked apart. Pure Chipquik doesn't have to be. In fact
it's better if it behaves more like solder. But when it is mixed with
solder it should "fall apart at the seams" easily. Which it does.


       RM

2005\04\22@063801 by William Chops Westfield

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On Apr 22, 2005, at 3:12 AM, Russell McMahon wrote:

> But when it is mixed with solder it should "fall apart at the seams"
> easily.

The demos I saw pretty much had the presenter removing the chips while
the mixed solders were still liquid-y, rather than structurally unsound.
Preferably kept liquid by one of chipquik's overprice hair-drier things.

BillW

2005\04\22@083426 by John Ferrell

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Check out
http://www.ares-server.com/Ares/Ares.asp?MerchantID=RET01229&Action=Catalog&Type=Product&ID=83092

160 degree melting point metal 8 oz, $12.35.
>From micromark.com

John Ferrell
http://DixieNC.US

{Original Message removed}

2005\04\22@085517 by Michael Rigby-Jones

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{Quote hidden}

The point is that when you heat the resulting alloy way above it's
melting temperature with a soldering iron, it takes long enough to cool
down and solidify that you have time to get all four sides of a PLCC
chip molten and pick it of the board.

The only thing that would worry me slightly is the possibility (more
like probability) of contamination of the solder joints when a new
device is soldered in.

Regards

Mike

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not make any use of this information, or copy or show it to any
person. Please contact us immediately to tell us that you have
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No part of this message can be considered a request for goods or
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2005\04\22@114759 by Peter

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On Fri, 22 Apr 2005, Russell McMahon wrote:

> "Solder" that allows removal of complex ICs without fancy hot air nozzles
> etc.
> Alloys with existing solder rendering it frangible and easily removable
> mechanically.
> This sort of product has been around for some while.
>
>       http://www.howardelectronics.com/chipquik/products.html
>
> 1.    How well does it work?

I have tried it once. You have to clean the board very thoroughly of
this alloy for rework because otherwise the new part is going to fall
off when it heats up. I also feel that you tend to overheat the part
when you apply the alloy to the pins (it takes a few seconds to alloy
each pin). I was somehow never sure of the joints after putting the new
part on with fresh solder. There is no way to check that you have
cleaned all the alloy.

> 2.    Seems remarkably expensive. Probably a relatively low cost material.
> Has anyone got any idea what it is?
>
> Presumably (but maybe not) a low melting point and some other properties
> Antimony  - too high
> Pewter?    550F

Wood's metal probably, with additives to 'corrupt' the mass of solder
better (so it would be Wood's metal when alloyed with the solder, not
before). It looks like solder (almost the same color). Wood's metal is
used to make those teaspoons that melt in a cup of tea (available at
magic/surprise shops). Maybe lower cost than what they propose ? But
maybe not the same metal.

Peter

2005\04\22@121114 by Peter

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On Thu, 21 Apr 2005, Eric Jorgensen wrote:

> You can buy it at a number of places on the web for
> about $12/25grams or $30/100g. Unfortunately, it is
> not going to come in a nice 0.032" dia. or less wire.
> It will probably be a little ingot or something. Maybe
> it would be possible to shave off long slivers for use
> in solder removal. Wonder if a guy could make a little

You can 'cast' it using a soldering iron and a plate etched with ribs
(the backside of a ceramic tile should work). It behaves like mercury
when molten and pushed around with the iron tip. I used a lot of rosin
flux (which solidifies before the metal does).

Peter

2005\04\22@122620 by Peter

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On Fri, 22 Apr 2005, William Chops Westfield wrote:

{Quote hidden}

That is true. And worst example of it happening is when attempting to
solder pigtails to silver plated piezo or quartz transducers with
silver-less solder.

Peter

2005\04\28@065300 by Howard Winter

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Eric,

On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 15:12:27 -0700 (PDT), Eric Jorgensen wrote:

> I checked a couple MSDSs and Woods' Metal is:
>
> Bismuth   50%
> Lead      25%
> Tin       12.5%
> Cadmium   12.5%
>
> All fairly nasty heavy metals that should be handled with some thought.

Well Lead and Cadmium, certainly, but if Tin is a problem then the baked beans industry is in for a shock!  
:-)

And isn't Bismuth used as a medicine?  I always understood that the "Bis" in Pepto Bismol was Bismuth?

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2005\04\28@142653 by Eric Jorgensen

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I should have been more specific.

Tin, itself, is not particularly hazardous, but many
tin compounds are. Like lead, they are used as
biocides such as in marine antifouling coatings. True,
it is used to electroplate steel in "tin cans" because
the plating is non-toxic and corrosion resistant.
Still, I would not rely on the tin used in Wood's
Metal being food or pharmaceutical quality.

BTW, helium is inert and plenty safe to inhale (as
long as there is sufficient oxygen, of course). Long
term submersibles use helium instead of nitrogen as a
breathable atmosphere. But that doesn't mean you
should suck on those helium balloons from industrial
helium tanks. They often contain all sorts of nasty
impurities.

Bismuth is also one that I would be careful of. True,
it is used in pharmaceuticals. But LOTS of deadly
toxins are used in medicines. Ask anyone on Coumadin
(R) which is warfarin which is rat poison. Use in
medicine is not an endorsement for uninformed use.
Neither is the word "natural". Many natural substances
are hazardous to life. A compound of bismuth is used
in Pepto-Bismol, but that doesn't negate the long list
of medical problems that bismuth and bismuth
subsalicyate are capable of.

One more thing. Pepto-Bismol is rarely mixed with
lead, tin and cadmium and heated to 700+ deg F.
Amazing things happen when you do such things. Look at
tobacco. Sitting in a white tube of paper, it is
relatively harmless. Light it up and it produces over
300 chemicals MOST of which involve a serious
inhalation hazard.

Well, that was fun and I only used google once (to see
if Pepto-Bismol was truly based on Bismuth!)

Eric
KE6US




--- Howard Winter <@spam@HDRWKILLspamspamH2Org.demon.co.uk> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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