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'[EE] How to receive submarine signal?'
2012\01\02@231228 by fred jones

picon face

Hi all,
I have a question for those analog engineers on the list.  I have been searching the internet for information on listening to ELF signals.  I have found some information but not exaxtly what I'm looking for.  For example one site has a circuit of amplifiers and passive filters utilizing either an antenna or just probes stuck in the ground to receive ELF signals below 50Hz..  Another person has a very large coil of wire wound on a spool and just sets it on the ground.  What I would like to do is similar but I'd like to listen to 76Hz which is the US submarine communications frequency.  The Russians utilize 82Hz.  Is it possible to build a circuit that would pickup the 76Hz signal only?  Any information on how to do this if it is possible is appreciated.
Thanks,
FJ
http://www.vlf.it/kurt/elf.html                                          

2012\01\03@023137 by Bob Axtell

face picon face
I suggest that you buy a WWVB module and adjuat the frequency slightly
with a new crystal. WWVB is a time/date signal from Ft Collins, CO USA
sending at 60.00khz. The modules are available from Digikey for about
$10 USD.

--Bob A

On Mon, Jan 2, 2012 at 11:12 PM, fred jones <spam_OUTboattowTakeThisOuTspamhotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>  I have a question for those analog engineers on the list.  I have been searching the internet for information on listening to ELF signals.  I have found some information but not exaxtly what I'm looking for.  For example one site has a circuit of amplifiers and passive filters utilizing either an antenna or just probes stuck in the ground to receive ELF signals below 50Hz.  Another person has a very large coil of wire wound on a spool and just sets it on the ground.  What I would like to do is similar but I'd like to listen to 76Hz which is the US submarine communications frequency.  The Russians utilize 82Hz.  Is it possible to build a circuit that would pickup the 76Hz signal only?  Any information on how to do this if it is possible is appreciated.
> Thanks,
> FJ
>
> http://www.vlf.it/kurt/elf.html
>

2012\01\03@025634 by Sean Breheny

face picon face
The original poster is talking about signals in the tens of HERTZ not
tens of KiloHertz.

There are many pages where people discuss work to receive VLF/ELF
signals of natural origin and I think some of these sites also talk
about attempts to receive the man-made ELF signals. However, I think
that the US has stopped using the VLF/ELF submarine transmitters -
presumably because they have some better technology that is not public
yet. I don't know about the russians.

Some examples:

http://www.vlf.it/kurt/elf.html   (mentions reception of man-made signals)
http://www.ab9il.net/vlf/vlf1.html   (mentions reception of man-made signals)
http://www.vlf.it/zevs/zevs.htm   (about a Russian system)
www.backyardastronomy.net/vlf_receiver.html
www.northcountryradio.com/Kitpages/elfrcvr.htm
www-star.stanford.edu/~vlf/ulp_reciv/ulp.htm
home.pon.net/785/equipment/build_your_own.htm
http://spaceweather.com/glossary/inspire.html
http://www.auroralchorus.com/bbb4rx3.htm
www.techlib.com/electronics/VLFwhistle.htm
http://www.qsl.net/dl4yhf/speclab/vlf_rcvr.htm
http://www.auroralchorus.com/wr3.htm

Sean


On Tue, Jan 3, 2012 at 2:31 AM, Bob Axtell <.....bob.axtellKILLspamspam@spam@gmail.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>> -

2012\01\03@045417 by alan.b.pearce

face picon face
> Hi all,
>  I have a question for those analog engineers on the list.  I have been searching
> the internet for information on listening to ELF signals.  I have found some
> information but not exaxtly what I'm looking for.  For example one site has a
> circuit of amplifiers and passive filters utilizing either an antenna or just probes
> stuck in the ground to receive ELF signals below 50Hz.  Another person has a very
> large coil of wire wound on a spool and just sets it on the ground.  What I would
> like to do is similar but I'd like to listen to 76Hz which is the US submarine
> communications frequency.  The Russians utilize 82Hz.  Is it possible to build a
> circuit that would pickup the 76Hz signal only?  Any information on how to do this
> if it is possible is appreciated.
> Thanks,
> FJ
>
> http://www.vlf.it/kurt/elf.html

Do they still use ELF? I had been given to understand that they use lasers from spacecraft these days, green blue lasers penetrate the water quite well apparently, and the resultant data rate is much faster than ELF, and has a potentially bidirectional path.
-- Scanned by iCritical.

2012\01\03@045638 by alan.b.pearce

face picon face
> I suggest that you buy a WWVB module and adjuat the frequency slightly with a new
> crystal. WWVB is a time/date signal from Ft Collins, CO USA sending at 60..00khz. The
> modules are available from Digikey for about
> $10 USD.

That would be a bit more than a small adjustment to get down to ELF frequencies that are down around mains frequency ...


-- Scanned by iCritical.

2012\01\03@073347 by Chris McSweeny

picon face
On Tue, Jan 3, 2012 at 9:54 AM,  <.....alan.b.pearceKILLspamspam.....stfc.ac.uk> wrote:
> Do they still use ELF? I had been given to understand that they use lasers from spacecraft these days, green blue lasers penetrate the water quite well apparently, and the resultant data rate is much faster than ELF, and has a potentially bidirectional path.

It's been a little while since I did any work with UW comms (and if I
had done anything more recent which changed anything I don't suppose I
could discuss it freely on here!) but certainly until very recently
VLF/ELF was what they were doing. I just can't see using lasers
between spacecraft and subs being practical in terms of spacecraft
location/availability, pointing accuracy, gain etc. I do know a bit
about why you might not pick up the VLF/ELF signals easily, but that
definitely comes under things I can't talk about.

Chris

2012\01\03@102446 by Yigit Turgut

picon face
Hi,

You can not listen submarine communication from ground, you need to
have an antenna underwater. Electromagnetic waves interact and respond
to each medium differently. When a medium change occurs throughout the
propagation path ; frequency, phase and amplitude parameters of the
wave does change. Unfortunately it's not enough to build a LF reciever
to eavesdrop submarine communications. It's totally doable but
requires solid theoretical background on em propagation in multilayer
mediums.

On Tue, Jan 3, 2012 at 6:12 AM, fred jones <EraseMEboattowspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuThotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>  I have a question for those analog engineers on the list.  I have been searching the internet for information on listening to ELF signals.  I have found some information but not exaxtly what I'm looking for.  For example one site has a circuit of amplifiers and passive filters utilizing either an antenna or just probes stuck in the ground to receive ELF signals below 50Hz.  Another person has a very large coil of wire wound on a spool and just sets it on the ground.  What I would like to do is similar but I'd like to listen to 76Hz which is the US submarine communications frequency.  The Russians utilize 82Hz.  Is it possible to build a circuit that would pickup the 76Hz signal only?  Any information on how to do this if it is possible is appreciated.
> Thanks,
> FJ
>
> http://www.vlf.it/kurt/elf.html
>

2012\01\03@111022 by Matt Bennett

flavicon
face
On Tue, January 3, 2012 6:33 am, Chris McSweeny wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 3, 2012 at 9:54 AM,  <alan.b.pearcespamspam_OUTstfc.ac.uk> wrote:
>> Do they still use ELF? I had been given to understand that they use
>> lasers from spacecraft these days, green blue lasers penetrate the water
>> quite well apparently, and the resultant data rate is much faster than
>> ELF, and has a potentially bidirectional path.
>
> It's been a little while since I did any work with UW comms (and if I
> had done anything more recent which changed anything I don't suppose I
> could discuss it freely on here!) but certainly until very recently
> VLF/ELF was what they were doing. I just can't see using lasers
> between spacecraft and subs being practical in terms of spacecraft
> location/availability, pointing accuracy, gain etc. I do know a bit
> about why you might not pick up the VLF/ELF signals easily, but that
> definitely comes under things I can't talk about.

ELF is still the primary method to communicate with near-surface (but not
close enough to put up an antenna) submarines. Lasers might work, the
downside is that it would negate the real reason why we have the
submarines out there- it would make them almost trivially easy to spot. While the patrol area is fixed, I believe the exact position is only known
to certain members of the ships crew- a satellite orbit wouldn't know
exactly where to point.

Matt Bennett
Just outside of Austin, TX
30.51,-97.91

The views I express are my own, not that of my employer, a large
multinational corporation that you are familiar with

2012\01\03@142441 by John Coppens

flavicon
face
On Tue, 3 Jan 2012 17:24:46 +0200
Yigit Turgut <@spam@y.turgutKILLspamspamgmail.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> You can not listen submarine communication from ground, you need to
> have an antenna underwater. Electromagnetic waves interact and respond
> to each medium differently. When a medium change occurs throughout the
> propagation path ; frequency, phase and amplitude parameters of the
> wave does change. Unfortunately it's not enough to build a LF reciever
> to eavesdrop submarine communications. It's totally doable but
> requires solid theoretical background on em propagation in multilayer
> mediums.
>

Hi all.

I notice that there is quite a bit of confusion when talking about
those weird low frequencies. The original poster mentioned Hz, not kHz.

Hz frequencies were never used for submarines (AFAIK). The main comms
are in the range of 10 - 30 kHz, and make use of fair propagation
using the lower ionospheric layers, and of the penetration in the salt
water. The (very) old Omega system made global positioning possible
using frequencies around 10 kHz, with 8 stations located around the
world.

As far as I can tell, there still is some activity to submarines, but
they are using MSK modulation, and apparently heavily encrypted.
According to some sources, the main application is to set up schedules
for communications by other means.

There are still some time reference transmitters - some in Russia, some
in China. Most are using antique installations/antennas. It's not that
easy to pull of an efficient antenna for transmission. A dipole at 20
kHz is 7.5 km long.

Joh

2012\01\03@151414 by John Gardner

picon face
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communication_with_submarines#Extremely_low_frequency

VLF (10s of KHz) was used for subs beginning in the 1930s.

A US VLF site which still exists, but is no longer operational :

http://hawkins.pair.com/nss.shtml

A similar RN VLF site (GBR?) was shut down perhaps 10 years ago

2012\01\03@162323 by John Coppens

flavicon
face
On Tue, 3 Jan 2012 12:14:14 -0800
John Gardner <KILLspamgoflo3KILLspamspamgmail.com> wrote:

> A similar RN VLF site (GBR?) was shut down perhaps 10 years ago.

An interesting site is a transmitter in Sweden (SAQ) where an
experimental signal is generated once or twice a year... with an
electromechanical transmitter. 200 kW on 27 kHz if I recall correctly.

But there seems to be more activity:

http://www.lwca.org/
www.fas.org/man/dod-101/navy/docs/scmp/part07.htm
http://www.smeter.net/stations/vlf-stations.php

and more...

2012\01\03@165102 by Electron

flavicon
face

By the way what is the bandwidth? :-)


At 05.12 2012.01.03, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>

2012\01\04@100715 by fred jones

picon face

I appreciate the responses, however it became a discussion as to whether the US still used 76hz or how communications was being handled.  The US still uses 76hz and the russians still use 82hz to communicate with submarines.  I do not want to receive and decode what is being communicated.  I have an idea for use of the signal.  All I want to be able to do is to receive it and measure a signal level.  Any ideas how I can do this?  It's 76hz, not Khz.  Thanks for any help or ideas.
Thanks,
FJ

{Quote hidden}

> -

2012\01\04@140714 by glen.paquette

picon face
You may need a large array for adequate wave capture.
Hard to distinguish between natural source. They communicate with methodical wave distortion and clicks, looks just like natural source, I don't know how you could distinguish?

Another page on that same site
http://www.vlf.it/cr/differential_ant.

Antennex is a great site.

http://www.antennex.com/

Its mostly  in the antenna tuning for long waves like that.

-

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 4, 2012, at 10:07 AM, fred jones <TakeThisOuTboattowEraseMEspamspam_OUThotmail.com> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

>> --

2012\01\04@143028 by John Gardner

picon face
....Another page on that same site

http://www.vlf.it/cr/differential_ant.

Seems to be a dead link

2012\01\04@144927 by glen.paquette

picon face
Add - .htm

http://www.vlf.it/cr/differential_ant.htm


Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 4, 2012, at 2:30 PM, John Gardner <EraseMEgoflo3spamgmail.com> wrote:

> ...Another page on that same site
>
> http://www.vlf.it/cr/differential_ant.
>
> Seems to be a dead link.
> -

2012\01\04@155114 by John Gardner

picon face
Thanks, Glen

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