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'[EE] How far do you go? - was: [EE] Firmwareflawsa'
2007\06\28@095820 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>I believe the Vovlos suffered from failure of the electronic
>throttle module rather than the ECU.  This is part of the
>"drive by wire" system which I have always considered a very
>poor idea.  Give me a throttle cable any day of the week.

OK, but in a simplified way I see the two as synonymous, in that the 'wires'
are still going into a lump of electronics that control the engine ...

It may be a separate module that does the throttle control, to the module
that does the engine management, but I suspect they are all inside the same
box (but I haven't looked under the hood of a Volvo to find out) ...

2007\06\28@171403 by Herbert Graf

flavicon
face
On Thu, 2007-06-28 at 14:58 +0100, Alan B. Pearce wrote:
> >I believe the Vovlos suffered from failure of the electronic
> >throttle module rather than the ECU.  This is part of the
> >"drive by wire" system which I have always considered a very
> >poor idea.  Give me a throttle cable any day of the week.
>
> OK, but in a simplified way I see the two as synonymous, in that the 'wires'
> are still going into a lump of electronics that control the engine ...
>
> It may be a separate module that does the throttle control, to the module
> that does the engine management, but I suspect they are all inside the same
> box (but I haven't looked under the hood of a Volvo to find out) ...

I doubt that very much.

It's very common on cars that each "feature" has it's own "computer".
I'd personally be surprised if a throttle by wire feature was contained
in the main ECU. It takes quite a while for the auto industry to
"integrate" separate modules.

TTYL



2007\06\28@180126 by Walter Banks

picon face

Herbert Graf wrote:

> On Thu, 2007-06-28 at 14:58 +0100, Alan B. Pearce wrote:
> > >I believe the Vovlos suffered from failure of the electronic
> > >throttle module rather than the ECU.  This is part of the
> > >"drive by wire" system which I have always considered a very
> > >poor idea.  Give me a throttle cable any day of the week.
> >
> > OK, but in a simplified way I see the two as synonymous, in that the 'wires'
> > are still going into a lump of electronics that control the engine ...
> >
> > It may be a separate module that does the throttle control, to the module
> > that does the engine management, but I suspect they are all inside the same
> > box (but I haven't looked under the hood of a Volvo to find out) ...
>
> I doubt that very much.
>
> It's very common on cars that each "feature" has it's own "computer".
> I'd personally be surprised if a throttle by wire feature was contained
> in the main ECU. It takes quite a while for the auto industry to
> "integrate" separate modules.

Herb,

You are partly right. Most cars also have cruise control that is
also part of the throttle by wire often handled separately. Throttle
information goes into the engine controller.

None (or very few) have cables going to a carburettor because
most are now using fuel injection to meet the EPA objectives.
Fuel injectors are now mostly modulated to control mixing as
air is drawn (forced) in to control burning, emissions, knock
maintenance (a lean spot will burn knock producing carbon
particles off cylinder walls) and  flame front control inside the
engine. In some cases mixing happens uniquely for each cylinder.

You can't set these things up with a screwdriver any more.
But you can reflash the code.

Walter Banks
--
Byte Craft Limited
Tel. (519) 888-6911
http://www.bytecraft.com
email spam_OUTwalterTakeThisOuTspambytecraft.com







2007\06\28@193939 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
Herbert Graf wrote:

>> It may be a separate module that does the throttle control, to the
>> module that does the engine management, but I suspect they are all
>> inside the same box (but I haven't looked under the hood of a Volvo to
>> find out) ...
>
> I doubt that very much.
>
> It's very common on cars that each "feature" has it's own "computer".
> I'd personally be surprised if a throttle by wire feature was contained
> in the main ECU. It takes quite a while for the auto industry to
> "integrate" separate modules.

IIRC, the Corvette's throttle control is handled by the ECM.

Gerhard

2007\06\29@084300 by Michael Rigby-Jones

picon face


>-----Original Message-----
>From: .....piclist-bouncesKILLspamspam@spam@mit.edu [piclist-bouncesspamKILLspammit.edu]
>On Behalf Of M. Adam Davis
>Sent: 29 June 2007 11:36
>To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
>Subject: Re: [EE] How far do you go? - was: [EE] Firmware
>flawsandfacelesscorporations
>
>
>On 6/28/07, Michael Rigby-Jones
><.....Michael.Rigby-JonesKILLspamspam.....bookham.com> wrote:
>> I can remember reading about this a couple of years back,
>and cringing
>> at the thought of it going wrong!  Essentialy the system selects two
>> gears at once, but there is some lost motion in the system and the
>> first gear is deselected before this slack is "used up".
>
>I imagine that many engineers similarily cringed when the
>first interference engines came out...

'Interference' engines have been around for a very long time, but combining this trait with a drive mechanism with a strictly limited, but slightly unpredicatble life is where the problems arose.  A better anology would be an interference engine where e.g. the valves are controlled directly by a micro rather than a camshaft.  Micro hangs, engine grenades itself.

Regards

Mike

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2007\06\29@111129 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
> I imagine that many engineers similarily cringed when the first
> interference engines came out...

As well they might.
I was mightily pleased with the result when the cambelt broke on our
old Mitsubishi Chariot. Minimal  cost to repair compared with what you
would expect in most modern engines.



       Russell


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