On 11/30/07, Neil Cherry <.....ncherryKILLspam@spam@comcast.net> wrote:
> Oh-oh-oh, professional or hobbyist HA controls? Sorry I'm a bit
> nuts about HA.
I just assumed that came with the territory. Most engineers seem to
have some interest in weather stations and home automation, among
other things.
At least, those are prejudices I've developed over the years. I can
always strike up a conversation with someone about those to topics and
if they are an engineer tey will either have lots of ideas, of lots of
experience (ideally, both - makes for a great conversation).
Of course, one could argue that all electronics can be represented
within those two topics - measurement, analysis, archiving, control.
M. Adam Davis wrote:
> On 11/30/07, Neil Cherry <ncherryKILLspamcomcast.net> wrote:
>> Oh-oh-oh, professional or hobbyist HA controls? Sorry I'm a bit
>> nuts about HA.
>
> I just assumed that came with the territory. Most engineers seem to
> have some interest in weather stations and home automation, among
> other things.
> At least, those are prejudices I've developed over the years. I can
> always strike up a conversation with someone about those to topics and
> if they are an engineer tey will either have lots of ideas, of lots of
> experience (ideally, both - makes for a great conversation).
I'll agree with that, I'm helping a number of my friends automate
their homes. Of course I am also answering questions from around
the world (I love the Internet). Wish I could speak a few more
languages.
> Of course, one could argue that all electronics can be represented
> within those two topics - measurement, analysis, archiving, control.
Definition of Home Automation, Smart Home, Intelligent Home,
Domotics or Domotica - automation specific to the requirements
of private residences. It applies techniques for the comfort,
security, entertainment and communications needs of it's residents.
In simplest terms it is control and monitoring of devices and
information.
I prefer to use process rather than analysis. Analysis doesn't
infer manipulation of the data. Process seems to imply both.
BTW, the definition above was taken from Wikipedia:
And before anyone comments that I should update the entry please
note that I've tried and every entry was removed and the comments
were not appreciated especially when the exact same material was
entered later by someone else and accepted (sorry for the rant).
But I wouldn't mind them using the material. I'm mad at the Wiki
community not the wiki users.
Right now I'm working on learning more about Security and home
theater (big ticket items). I'm also trying to find out more about
home resource management. There doesn't seem to be a whole lot of
coverage there. And, of course, I'm hoping to have more toys coming
soon (I just got my AVR and I'm ordered one of the little arm
boards for playing).
On Fri, 2007-11-30 at 11:51 -0500, M. Adam Davis wrote:
> On 11/30/07, Neil Cherry <EraseMEncherryspam_OUTTakeThisOuTcomcast.net> wrote:
> > Oh-oh-oh, professional or hobbyist HA controls? Sorry I'm a bit
> > nuts about HA.
>
> I just assumed that came with the territory. Most engineers seem to
> have some interest in weather stations and home automation, among
> other things.
>
> At least, those are prejudices I've developed over the years. I can
> always strike up a conversation with someone about those to topics and
> if they are an engineer tey will either have lots of ideas, of lots of
> experience (ideally, both - makes for a great conversation).
>
> Of course, one could argue that all electronics can be represented
> within those two topics - measurement, analysis, archiving, control.
Hehe, well, of the EEs I know, those who are in it for more then just
the money, a "weather" type project is something they've all done.
Myself? ALOT of my hobbyist work has revolved around data aquisition,
starting with outside temperatures and evolving into a whole weather
station and some house monitoring type stuff (i.e. furnace flue temp,
lets me visually see how much the furnace was used in a day).
On 11/30/07, Neil Cherry <ncherryspam_OUTcomcast.net> wrote:
> ... I'm also trying to find out more about
> home resource management. There doesn't seem to be a whole lot of
> coverage there.
I'm still thinking about adding a current sensor to each branch off my
main panel so I can not only have a whole house electrical consumption
but drill down to each branch and see what's eating all that energy.
Very simple and cheap coils around the wires type of arrangement,
probably with a multiplexed ADC, and some arrangment for measuring the
voltage of the two phases relative to neutral so I can find power
factor if I'm interested.
But it's yet another project I'm not going to get around to this year.
My meter spins awfully fast, though...
Flow meters for water and gas aren't so cheap or trivial to add,
though, so I think I would just monitor them with the utility's meter.
M. Adam Davis wrote:
> On 11/30/07, Neil Cherry <@spam@ncherryKILLspamcomcast.net> wrote:
>> ... I'm also trying to find out more about
>> home resource management. There doesn't seem to be a whole lot of
>> coverage there.
>
> I'm still thinking about adding a current sensor to each branch off my
> main panel so I can not only have a whole house electrical consumption
> but drill down to each branch and see what's eating all that energy.
> Very simple and cheap coils around the wires type of arrangement,
> probably with a multiplexed ADC, and some arrangment for measuring the
> voltage of the two phases relative to neutral so I can find power
> factor if I'm interested.
Circuit Cellar did an article on this
Issue: 73 August 1996
Page: 48
Author: Jeff Bachiochi
Title: From the Bench
Subtitle: Nonintrusive Current Monitoring
Abstract: This series begins with winding toroidal current sensors for
monitoring power consumption in the home. Jeff designs front-end
signal conditioning with an expandable multiplexer for use with
the low-cost Domino microcomputer.
Issue: 74 Sep 1996
Page: 78
Author: Jeff Bachiochi
Title: From the Bench
Subtitle: Nonintrusive Current Monitoring: Part 2: Real-time Energy Profile
Abstract: Last month, Jeff built toroids to check the current consumed in
his home. This month, he puts them to work. Using a spreadsheet,
he shares that information with us. Listen up if you also want
to know where those kilowatts go.
The Domino is a simple micro-controller. I think he output the
information to Excel (same thing can be done with any Unix).
He calculates actual power by getting the instantaneous current and
voltage per sample.
> But it's yet another project I'm not going to get around to this year.
> My meter spins awfully fast, though...
>
> Flow meters for water and gas aren't so cheap or trivial to add,
> though, so I think I would just monitor them with the utility's meter.
A lot of information on various meters are available on this
forum:
The one problem you might have is that the utilities want
equipment they've certified and I doubt they'd appreciate third
party equipment monitoring their equipment (there is some
doubt as to whether you are interfering with them getting the
correct information).
>>
>>I'm still thinking about adding a current sensor to each branch off my
>>main panel so I can not only have a whole house electrical consumption
>>but drill down to each branch and see what's eating all that energy.
>>Very simple and cheap coils around the wires type of arrangement,
>>probably with a multiplexed ADC, and some arrangment for measuring the
>>voltage of the two phases relative to neutral so I can find power
>>factor if I'm interested.
>
> Circuit Cellar did an article on this
information).
For the record, I'm using CS5460 with toroid. Only one on main Input,
but it could be adapted to any Socket.
> The one problem you might have is that the utilities want equipment
> they've certified and I doubt they'd appreciate third party equipment
> monitoring their equipment (there is some doubt as to whether you are
> interfering with them getting the correct information).
Isn't such a current monitor just another consumer, from the utilities'
point of view? (Considering that you connect it behind the meter, of
course.)
One of the main concerns is safety, the need to be in conformance with
local and other building, including here in the USA the NEC (National
Electrical Code) that is included by reference in nearly all local
codes. Some Fire insurance is void if there is non-compliance, read your
policy!
In the case of the toroids and wire wrapped around, I think the magazine
article indicated that the wire in the main box with the high voltage
(120 -240 VAC) needs 600 volt insulation. Easy to obtain at low cost,
therefore easy to comply, but also easy to overlook. :)
> Neil Cherry wrote:
>
>
>> The one problem you might have is that the utilities want equipment
>> they've certified and I doubt they'd appreciate third party equipment
>> monitoring their equipment (there is some doubt as to whether you are
>> interfering with them getting the correct information).
>>
>
> Isn't such a current monitor just another consumer, from the utilities'
> point of view? (Considering that you connect it behind the meter, of
> course.)
>
> Gerhard
>
>
part 1 1817 bytes content-type:text/plain; charset="us-ascii" (decoded quoted-printable)
I have done this many times with coilcraft parts.
BUT
I HV pot coilcraft leads to wire insulating to 1,000 volts (wire is also good to 1kv)
I pull off wire to each circuit breaker and put it through loop then back on. (one turn)
Then exit breaker box through metal conduct. http://www.coilcraft.com/misc/sen60tp.html
In my area of the country it just has to be "designed to meet codes"
Does not have to be listed or certified.
Works very well.
Ray
On Sat, 01 Dec 2007 08:46:53 -0500, Carl Denk wrote: {Quote hidden}
> One of the main concerns is safety, the need to be in conformance
> with local and other building, including here in the USA the NEC
> (National Electrical Code) that is included by reference in nearly
> all local codes. Some Fire insurance is void if there is non-
> compliance, read your policy!
>
> In the case of the toroids and wire wrapped around, I think the
> magazine article indicated that the wire in the main box with the
> high voltage (120 -240 VAC) needs 600 volt insulation. Easy to
> obtain at low cost, therefore easy to comply, but also easy to
> overlook. :)
>
> Gerhard Fiedler wrote:
>> Neil Cherry wrote:
>>
>>
>>> The one problem you might have is that the utilities want
>>> equipment they've certified and I doubt they'd appreciate third
>>> party equipment monitoring their equipment (there is some doubt
>>> as to whether you are interfering with them getting the correct
>>> information).
>>>
>>>
>> Isn't such a current monitor just another consumer, from the
>> utilities' point of view? (Considering that you connect it behind
>> the meter, of course.)
>>
>> Gerhard
part 2 35 bytes content-type:text/plain; charset="us-ascii" (decoded 7bit)
>I have done this many times with coilcraft parts.
>BUT
>I HV pot coilcraft leads to wire insulating to 1,000 volts (wire is also good to 1kv)
>I pull off wire to each circuit breaker and put it through loop then back on. (one turn)
>Then exit breaker box through metal conduct.
>http://www.coilcraft.com/misc/sen60tp.html
>In my area of the country it just has to be "designed to meet codes"
>Does not have to be listed or certified.
>Works very well.
Gerhard Fiedler wrote:
> Neil Cherry wrote:
>
>> The one problem you might have is that the utilities want equipment
>> they've certified and I doubt they'd appreciate third party equipment
>> monitoring their equipment (there is some doubt as to whether you are
>> interfering with them getting the correct information).
>
> Isn't such a current monitor just another consumer, from the utilities'
> point of view? (Considering that you connect it behind the meter, of
> course.)
My apologies, the certified equipment I meant to discuss were
things attached to the outside meter. There have been many DIY
projects that use laser pens (a possible eye hazard). If fact
some are such hack jobs that they look like badly made bombs.
I'm surprised that we haven't had a report of the bomb squad
being called to a home for such projects.
Apparently in Europe you can purchase the proper meter that
allows you to monitor your usage. They're starting to install
them here (I have one for my water) but I can't have it installed
because the utility would just replace it with there own.
Odd coincidence, the news had a story of how a local inventor/
business man selling an energy monitor that uses a special
meter and a palm razor (WiFi?) to calculate usage and forecast
ways to lower your usage. That could easily be done on a PC
with a spreadsheet (which is why he probably went with the
Razor, less pirating losses).
>Myself? ALOT of my hobbyist work has revolved around data aquisition,
>starting with outside temperatures and evolving into a whole weather
>station and some house monitoring type stuff (i.e. furnace flue temp,
>lets me visually see how much the furnace was used in a day).
One of the first HA electronic projects I came across was when
microprocessors were still new playthings.
Some guy in somewhere in USA wrote an article in a major US electronics
magazine (cannot remember which one) back in very early 70's about using a
SC/MP to control his flue flap, by measuring the flue exhaust temp. He
adjusted the flap to maintain constant gas temperature, and when the flap
was fully open, and the temperature couldn't be maintained, it rang an alarm
to say the fire needs more wood ...
always seemed a bit of a waste for a dedicated micro, but it did show the
way costs were going.
linuxha.com
