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'[EE] Gas soldering station'
2007\02\01@092539 by Tamas Rudnai

face picon face
Hello Everyone,

A while ago I've read something about gas soldering stations either here or
somewhere else but I could not find the message. I would have some questions
about this:

- What are the advantages / disadvantages over electric solder stations
(like AFAIK there is no danger to put static electricity onto the tip of the
iron, and I've heard something about that gas stations protects the solder
against oxidation?)

- If somebody has an experience with one, using a 7ml of tank how long can I
use it continuously?

- Overall is it cheaper or more expensive to run?

- Is there any problem if the tip is pointing down for a long time? (ie the
heat is going up to the handle/tank instead of the tip)

- Do you switch it on and off while working so that reducing the gas
consumption or just let it run?

- Can you use it for heat shrinking tubes (using it in torch mode)?

Sorry if these questions were too stupid but I just never ever had any
experience on these and wondering if it worth to buy one.

Thanks
Tamas


--
unPIC -- The PIC Disassembler
http://unpic.sourceforge.net

2007\02\01@095749 by Dario Greggio

face picon face
Tamas Rudnai wrote:

> A while ago I've read something about gas soldering stations either here or
> somewhere else but I could not find the message. I would have some questions
> about this:

Hi Tamas, I've been using Gas-solder (not station).
I did not like them: sometimes hard to calibrate, often gas is over when
you need it... more expensive in the end.
They're just useful, IMO, when you're servicing on the field.


--
Ciao, Dario

2007\02\01@100620 by Mike Harrison

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face
On Thu, 1 Feb 2007 14:25:36 +0000, you wrote:

{Quote hidden}

Gas irons are very useful when away from the bench, but are not an alternative to a conventional.
You only want to use one when you don't have a proper iron available.

If you need to use a gas iron, get a Weller Pyropen, preferably the one with the built-in igniter -
by far the best.
Don't even think about a rechargeable iron - useless.

You can use gas irons on small heatshrink, you don't always need to swap to a hot-air nozzle as you
get a stream of hot air out the side of the soldering nozzle ( which you need to be careful of when
soldering)..


2007\02\01@112153 by Tamas Rudnai

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Hi Dario,

That was I am afraid of -- calibration, different quality of gas produces
different temperatures. With the "gas is over": so basically you can't just
shut it off when not heating something at a moment and light it up when you
really needed?

Tamas


On 2/1/07, Dario Greggio <spam_OUTadpm.toTakeThisOuTspaminwind.it> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> -

2007\02\01@112524 by Tamas Rudnai

face picon face
Hi Mike,

Thanks for that, I've never thought it over that it generates a huge heat
sidewise. BTW battery operated soldering irons: the so called ColdHeat iron
is not any good? It says heats up to 400C within seconds and cools down
nearly as fast. I thought it does not flats down the battery too quick? Or
the problem is something else?

Thanks,
Tamas


On 2/1/07, Mike Harrison <.....mikeKILLspamspam@spam@whitewing.co.uk> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> -

2007\02\01@114309 by Mike Hord

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I've heard that the coldheat iron is basically useless for anything more
than the most basic of jobs.  If I understand correctly, it works because
it has two electrodes which conduct electricity very well and heat very
poorly so they can run a heck of a current through the object you want
to heat up enough to melt solder, but they don't absorb any of that
heat.  The problem is, the tips are bulky and hard to position, and
require that the desired joint can be placed between them.  Result:
forget about soldering DIPs or in fact anything smaller than through hole
resistors and caps.

Of course, I've never used one, just heard others talk of them.  They
are cheap enough now (<$20US) that it may be worth checking out.
I suspect for the sort of thing I always wish I had a portable iron for
(i.e., soldering a wire to something which is attached to something
else by 200 screws) it may work very well.

Mike H.

> Thanks for that, I've never thought it over that it generates a huge heat
> sidewise. BTW battery operated soldering irons: the so called ColdHeat iron
> is not any good? It says heats up to 400C within seconds and cools down
> nearly as fast. I thought it does not flats down the battery too quick? Or
> the problem is something else?

2007\02\01@115205 by Hazelwood Lyle

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face
> BTW battery operated soldering irons: the so called
> ColdHeat iron
> is not any good? It says heats up to 400C within seconds and
> cools down
> nearly as fast. I thought it does not flats down the battery
> too quick? Or
> the problem is something else?
>

I have observed the "Cold Heat" irons sparking as they contact
the device being soldered. Perhaps OK for switches and contacts
while they are isolated from the circuit, but I would NEVER
use one of these for a semiconductor.

That's just my opinion. You are welcome to form your own.

Lyle

2007\02\01@120208 by Mike Harrison

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face
On Thu, 1 Feb 2007 16:25:13 +0000, you wrote:

>Hi Mike,
>
>Thanks for that, I've never thought it over that it generates a huge heat
>sidewise. BTW battery operated soldering irons: the so called ColdHeat iron
>is not any good? It says heats up to 400C within seconds and cools down
>nearly as fast. I thought it does not flats down the battery too quick? Or
>the problem is something else?

Battery irons tend to be under-powered ( remember if working on-site it could be windy..!)

The other big advantage of gas irons is you can carry a spare gas refill, and also get them easily
from local shops if you run out in the middle of a job.


{Quote hidden}

>> --

2007\02\01@120927 by Tamas Rudnai

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I see, I think finally I will stay with the good old electric one. At the
moment I can found a wall plugs everywhere I need except at the airfield
with my airplane models, but if I needed to solder something it is most
probably something terrible had been happened to the fuselage as well :-)

Thanks again for all of you,
Tamas


On 2/1/07, Mike Hord <.....mike.hordKILLspamspam.....gmail.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> -

2007\02\01@132211 by Patrik Hermansson

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face

>>    
>
> I have observed the "Cold Heat" irons sparking as they contact
> the device being soldered. Perhaps OK for switches and contacts
> while they are isolated from the circuit, but I would NEVER
> use one of these for a semiconductor.
>
> That's just my opinion. You are welcome to form your own.
>
> Lyle
>
>  
I think the Cold Heat is something that could have been good but it
isn't. The tip is bulky, but it's possible to solder not so small
things. The worst problem is that the tip sometimes has problems making
contact with the material, and worse, it's so fragile. A tip costs some
$12 here, and they do not last long. My last one broke after maybe 20
careful solderings...

/Patrik

2007\02\01@181105 by Dwayne Reid

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face
At 07:25 AM 2/1/2007, Tamas Rudnai wrote:
{Quote hidden}

I've used a couple of different versions over the past 10 years or so.

1) Early "Portasol" units - was never very happy with either of the
units I owned.  Seemed woefully under-powered.  The catalytic
material gets dislodged easily from its proper location.  NOT recommended.

2) Weller "Pyropen" or Master "Ultratorch".  Both appear to be
identical except the Weller unit is painted blue vs the Master unit
being red.  Excellent units all around.  The Master Ultratorch comes
with more heat-shrink accessories than the Weller but the units are
otherwise identical.  I own 2 each of the Weller and Master units.

3) Weller "Self-Igniting Pyropen" - similar to the original unit
(above) but with a peizo ignitor built in.  Units seem more fragile
than the versions without the piezo ignitor.  I've seen 4 or 5 broken
units over the past few years.  I don't own any of these.

Non of these units are meant to replace a proper electric
station.  Rather, they are useful when its more convenient to take
the soldering iron to a location that does not have power or where
packing a full-size soldering station is not practical.

My workhorse Master Ultratorch has hundreds of hours of operation on
it - more thousands of solder connections than I care to
remember.  It has been extremely reliable.

One word of caution: do NOT use standard Butane refill cans when
filling these.  Instead, pay the (much) extra cost and use only
filtered butane as sold by both Weller and Master.  I used to think
that there was no difference between the Ronson refills I got from
the local drugstore vs the expensive refill cans sold by the local
electronics supplier.

Turns out there is a big difference: long term reliability.  Not sure
what that dark crud was that eventually plugged the orifice in one of
my units - but that crud shows up in all of the Pyropens run
continuously from Ronson (and other brands) refill cans.  Not had
that problem with the units run only with the Master refill cans.

Something else to consider: Wahl Isotip portable soldering
irons.  Again, I've got 2 or 3 units from different eras.  The
original (gray) Isotip is now on its 3rd or 4th set of batteries and
still working well.  The orange "quick charge" units eat batteries -
the charger is much too aggressive and has absolutely no charge
control.  Its all too convenient to leave the unit sitting in the
charging base.  The batteries just cook themselves to death.

The original (gray) Isotip units suffer the same problem to a lesser
extent.  I try to remember to lift the iron out of its holder and
turn it around so that it can't hit the charging contacts.  One of
these days (round to it), I'll stick a charge controller in the bases
and eliminate the problem.

The reason I mention the Wahl Isotip iron is the tip selection.  The
tip I keep on my (working) Isotip looks like the standard pointy
Isotip tip but on the end of 4 inches of something that looks just
like old-fashioned 300 Ohm television twin-lead.  It lets me get the
tip deep inside something that would not tolerate the hot exhaust
from the Weller or Master gas-powered iron.  One thing to note: the
Isotip is fine for occasional soldering.  You wouldn't want to trust
the batteries to live long enough to put a couple of dozen XLR
connectors on cables.  The gas-fueled irons will run as long as you have fuel.

Again - all of these units are fine for situations where you do not
have access to a decent line-powered soldering station.  Me - I've
got my field tools broken into several cases.  The shoulder bag (old
Apple II Cordura case) has just about everything I need for most
jobs.  It contains a Master Utratorch.

My larger case contains things like a small vise, crimping tools,
Hellerman sleeving tools and supplies, tiny dual PSU, heatxhrink,
Master-mite heat gun - and a Metcal PS30 station and wand and
stand.  Also has many of the SMT tips for SOIC and sot23
devices.  Yeah - I change ds26c31 & ds26c31 SO-16 packages on-site
regularly.  (Silly Sony people - use RS-422 devices for long distance
communications between buildings - then make those devices not
socketed.  Idiots!)

Anyway - that's my experience with the Weller, Master, Portasol, Wahl
stuff.  Your mileage may vary.

dwayne

--
Dwayne Reid   <EraseMEdwaynerspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTplanet.eon.net>
Trinity Electronics Systems Ltd    Edmonton, AB, CANADA
(780) 489-3199 voice          (780) 487-6397 fax

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2007\02\01@184921 by Bob Axtell

face picon face
Dwayne Reid wrote:
{Quote hidden}

That annoying RS422 problem hammered me in RS422 casino networks, too.
The problem is
that nearby lightning imposes a very strong pulse on the cables and
knocks those drivers out.
Only sockets finally made the scheme workable.

--Bob

2007\02\01@201200 by Recon

picon face
Tamas Rudnai wrote:

>I see, I think finally I will stay with the good old electric one. At the
>moment I can found a wall plugs everywhere I need except at the airfield
>with my airplane models, but if I needed to solder something it is most
>probably something terrible had been happened to the fuselage as well :-)
>
>Thanks again for all of you,
>Tamas
>
>
>  
>
I have a cheap 12 V DC solder pencil I bought from a electronic house a
few years ago.  Works great on small jobs on boat and vehicles.
My butane weller still works after 6 years but not worth much if  there
is a breeze blowing

2007\02\02@042357 by Dario Greggio

face picon face
Tamas Rudnai wrote:

> With the "gas is over": so basically you can't just
> shut it off when not heating something at a moment and light it up when you
> really needed?

Yep, you can, but you have to remember about it :-) and anyway it does
not last so long... you have to have a spare refill with you (while 200V
socket will always be there...)

And, I also meant to say "too heat generated" with my words "hard to
calibrate" .


--
Ciao, Dario

2007\02\02@043617 by Peter P.

picon face
Does anybody know a gas soldering iron with a thermostat ? A portable one ? My
worst gripes are too much heat and sometimes unstable flame when holding in
weird position (upside down etc). In 2007 there should be some technical trick
to 'marry' a bimetal temperature sensor to some kind of mixture air valve and
thus regulate the temperature. imho. I am tempted to try this but I cannot
technically do it now.

thanks,
Peter P.


2007\02\02@053851 by Tamas Rudnai

face picon face
Oh, that's definitely something they forget to mention. Thanks!

Tamas


On 2/1/07, Patrik Hermansson <patherspamspam_OUTcomhem.se> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> -

2007\02\02@054153 by Tamas Rudnai

face picon face
Well, you can carry spare batteries I suppose and also you can get AA or AAA
batteries at the local shop. But yes, underpowered iron is so annoying. I
remember once I was soldering an antenna at my roof and the solder frozen up
at the tip of the iron when I touched the surface. It was a bit windy so I
had to wait while it become sunny.

Tamas


On 2/1/07, Mike Harrison <@spam@mikeKILLspamspamwhitewing.co.uk> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2007\02\02@055641 by Tamas Rudnai

face picon face
Hi Dwayne,

Thanks for the detailed info. I did not even think about the quality of the
gas in this way. How could I be make sure if the gas the electronic shop
ships is a filtered one? All they say is that this is for refilling the iron
and so far I could find two of them, both of them 200ml and are around 5
euros (one is for 3 the other one is for 5, but the cheaper one is in an
online shop so you have to pay that 2 euros for the shipping anyway).

The gas iron I saw claims that you can set the temp in between 210 and 450
Celsius. So I do not know if this overheating problem some of you mentioned
is still exists for these newer irons? Or is it because of some wind or
other conditions you have to set the temperature a bit higher and the next
minute suddenly conditions are changed so that it heats up more?

Tamas
PS: Dwayne, now I have a Flames jersey as my friend visited me from Calgary,
and also hopefully I can be there at the Stempede this year :-)


On 2/1/07, Dwayne Reid <RemoveMEdwaynerTakeThisOuTspamplanet.eon.net> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> -

2007\02\02@061539 by Tamas Rudnai

face picon face
Hi,

Now I am not sure if anybody got my replies, as some of my mails bounced
back:

> (This is an automatic reply.)
>
> The list you were mailing to is inactive.  The accounts that created and
> owned it are suspended or expired.  During the next account suspension
> cycle it will be deleted. If you are a member of the list and have a
> Project Vincent account at Iowa State University, you may reactivate this
> list by sending mail to TakeThisOuTactiv8listEraseMEspamspam_OUTiastate.edu.  Please include the name
of
> the list in the message.  Reactivation will take two to three business
days.
>
> Your original message was addressed to inactive list: 'sunkist'.

So what it is all about? AFAIK piclist is at mit.edu not at iastate.edu.

Tamas


--
unPIC -- The PIC Disassembler
http://unpic.sourceforge.net

2007\02\02@063729 by Jinx

face picon face
> Now I am not sure if anybody got my replies, as some of my mails
> bounced back:

I saw your replies and

Re: Your message to an inactive list at iastate.edu

to me personally, not via the list, for each post I've made



2007\02\02@065140 by Tamas Rudnai

face picon face
That is strange. Anyway, whatever was that I was trying to reactivate as it
said, will see what happens.

Thanks
Tamas


On 2/2/07, Jinx <RemoveMEjoecolquittspamTakeThisOuTclear.net.nz> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> -

2007\02\02@065338 by Dario Greggio

face picon face
Tamas Rudnai wrote:

> Now I am not sure if anybody got my replies, as some of my mails bounced
> back:

>
>>(This is an automatic reply.)
>>
>>The list you were mailing to is inactive.  The accounts that created and
>>owned it are suspended or expired.  During the next account suspension
[...]

yeah, me too.
thouth it does not seem to be a problem, message got through too!


--
Ciao, Dario

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