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'[EE] Flat Lithium Ion Battery?'
2010\05\07@095606 by Tony Vandiver

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Does anyone know of a 3000mAH or better single cell Lithium Ion battery
(using LiPo now, but my peers wish that I would find something less
explosive) that comes in a flat rectangular package?  My envelope for a
battery is about 0.4"x6"x4".  I've found some that might fit in my
enclosure that are cylindrical, but I need more capacity than my
smallest dimension (diameter of the battery) allows.  As an alternative,
what are the down sides to putting multiple LiIon cells in parallel to
increase capacity, i.e. is there a way to maintain a balanced voltage on
them without a lot of danger/hassle?

Looking at the bigger picture, I've got a handheld device designed that
pulls 450mA at 3.7V when fully active & I'm charging via a USB port.  I
need about 5 hours or more of fully active operation on a single
charge.  I'm also concerned about the need to replace batteries in the
field with something off the shelf.  Cell phone batteries seem like a
possible fit, but it seems difficult to connect to them, and I don't
have documentation on the ones I've seen with 4 terminals (I'm assuming
that extra terminals are connections to thermistors for temp
monitoring).  Any recommendations?

TIA,

Tony


2010\05\07@102813 by Michael Rigby-Jones

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> -----Original Message-----
> From: spam_OUTpiclist-bouncesTakeThisOuTspammit.edu [.....piclist-bouncesKILLspamspam@spam@mit.edu] On
Behalf
> Of Tony Vandiver
> Sent: 07 May 2010 14:56
> To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
> Subject: [EE] Flat Lithium Ion Battery?
>
> Cell phone batteries seem like a
> possible fit, but it seems difficult to connect to them, and I don't
> have documentation on the ones I've seen with 4 terminals (I'm
assuming
> that extra terminals are connections to thermistors for temp
> monitoring).  Any recommendations?

AFAIK the majority of cell phone batteries are now LiPo anyway, so this
may not be much of an option.

Have a search for "prismatic lithium ion", this may be what you are
looking for.

Mike

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2010\05\07@110153 by William \Chops\ Westfield

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On May 7, 2010, at 6:55 AM, Tony Vandiver wrote:

> Does anyone know of a 3000mAH or better single cell Lithium Ion  
> battery (using LiPo now, but my peers wish that I would find  
> something less explosive)


Are Li-ion really "less explosive" than LiPo?  My impression was that  
they are essentially identical chemistry, with LiPo being slightly  
more physically fragile because of the package (or lack thereof.)

BillW

2010\05\07@121529 by Tony Vandiver

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I don't know a lot about the chemistries first hand.  I was doing this
with Alkalines and when told that I needed to get away from that, I just
found a battery with the capacity and charge specs I wanted and started
designing around it.  After being shown several explosion scenes on
youtube, I started second guessing the LiPo choice, but LiIon may not be
any better.  I've heard that the LifePo4 batteries are almost
indestructible ala A123.  Would that be a better choice in terms of
safety, and are there any out there in "flat" packages?

Thanks,

Tony


William "Chops" Westfield wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2010\05\07@124612 by Michael Watterson

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Tony Vandiver wrote:
{Quote hidden}

After 6mths to 9mths a Li battery may have 50% capacity or less. A good quality NiMH may over a year perform better than LiXXX. It's heavier for same capacity, but not much more volume. Also the working voltage on an Li Cell is maybe 2.5V to 4.3V, compared to 2V to 2.9V for a pair of NiMH cells.
AA is about 2200mAH. 2500mA models self discharge faster and appear to have less capacity after 6 months. 2,700mAH AA cell seems to be very optimistic. C cells are about 4000mAH

many laptop battery packs have pairs of Li batteries in parallel. Each cell or parallel pair in a pack has to be separately monitored.  Li rechargeable design is considerably more complex than NiMH. You must not trickle charge even at a low level when charged and you must not over discharge. You also may need to disconnect after a certain number of cycles. Stored Li rechargeables start losing lifetime once manufactured as well as per charge cycle, NiMH is more cycles based. NiMH can be allowed to be stored discharged, Li must be stored at about 40%.  






2010\05\07@125216 by Michael Watterson

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Tony Vandiver wrote:
> I don't know a lot about the chemistries first hand.  I was doing this
> with Alkalines
Alkalines seriously beat rechargeables for shelf life (up to 5 years).
Hence Electret Mic, low current test gear, smoke alarms, emergency
radio, clocks etc are much better with Alkaline (maybe with annual or 6
monthly replacement). The LiPoly may go nearly flat in 3 months of
storage (and 1/6th to 1/4 of lifetime gone) and NiMH 2700mAH AA can go
flat in a week of storage (but only 1/300th loss of life). The lower
capacity NiMH (or even NiCd) may have 1000 cycles and high capacity only
300 cycles life, but this could be same or longer operating time.

2010\05\07@130223 by Ariel Rocholl

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Your numbers for Lipo are very pessimistic in my experience, perhaps for low
quality brands - can you ellaborate on brands you get such a low lifetime?.

Modern standard quality Lipo, at room temperature and properly charged and
monitored last 2years with 75% capacity. Improper charge/discharge
algorithm, excesive temperature or high discharge current all impact in lipo
lifetime of course. A good reference article on the topic
http://www.arocholl.com/Datos/804PET22li-ion-battery-life.pdf


2010/5/7 Michael Watterson <mikespamKILLspamradioway.org>

>
>
> After 6mths to 9mths a Li battery may have 50% capacity or less.
>

--
Ariel Rocholl

2010\05\07@135338 by Herbert Graf

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On Fri, 2010-05-07 at 19:02 +0200, Ariel Rocholl wrote:
> Your numbers for Lipo are very pessimistic in my experience, perhaps for low
> quality brands - can you ellaborate on brands you get such a low lifetime?.
>
> Modern standard quality Lipo, at room temperature and properly charged and
> monitored last 2years with 75% capacity. Improper charge/discharge
> algorithm, excesive temperature or high discharge current all impact in lipo
> lifetime of course. A good reference article on the topic
> http://www.arocholl.com/Datos/804PET22li-ion-battery-life.pdf

I agree. While not as scientific perhaps, an example is my laptop, which
will turn 2 in a months time.

It's battery, which has been used very heavily (usually around one
pretty deep cycle every other day, with lots of "little" cycles during
the day, lots of heat and cold since it's in the car alot) currently has
a capacity of 51.6Wh, it's design capacity is 57.7Wh, meaning it's at
~89% of it's new capacity, not bad after almost 2 years!

TTYL


2010\05\07@144017 by Michael Watterson

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Herbert Graf wrote:
{Quote hidden}

I suspect ensuring supplies of good quality batteries needs as much care
and skill as designing the charger. My experience over the last 10 years
is that all claims rechargeable capacity err on the "best case". As to
where the mean or median of performance really is?  CFL lamps is another
example. Packaging claims a x6  to x7 ratio of power saving  (i.e.
claims a 11W is same light as 100W tungsten incandescent)  and 10,000
hours life. However only 11W may be closer to 50W equivalent. If it's
very cold or hot it's much worse. Life may be no longer than good
halogen or even less. Poor quality electronics? Some big brand name
parts have high RF out.

Lithium rechargables  inherently technology that requires very high
quality materials and tight manufacturing control, seemly more so than
other battery systems.

I'm very sceptical of manufacturer's claims of many products. Certainly
many  2500 to 2700mA NiMH AA cells are nothing of sort. While getting
even 3 or 4 years may be possible, getting only 18months or less  isn't
unusual  on phones or  laptops  either. The clock ticks on common
Lithium rechargeable  systems as soon as  manufactured.  If you are not
a volume OEM user how do you know how long it has been in stock?

If you are a large OEM with good QA arrangements and test sampling of
your own then your figures may apply. I know one place that made
capacitors that if short of production sent working but sub spec parts
to the customers that never made returns.

2010\05\07@154523 by Sean Breheny

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I think the original comment about capacity was actually referring to
charge retention when in storage (i.e., low self discharge rate) not
the ability to store a certain amount of energy after many cycles.

Lithium chemistries tend to be excellent at retaining charge while in
storage. NiMH (at least the recent high capacity NiMH) tend to be
awful in this regard. I once tested a batch of Energizer NH15-AA
(2500mAh AA cells) by fully charging them, waiting some period of
time, which I think was 3 weeks, and then discharging them and
measuring the total AH discharged before reaching the minimum voltage.
I found that some of them still had 70% remaining, while others were
less than 30%. A LiPo or normal Lithium Ion would still have had >90%
left at this point, and it would be consistent across all members of a
batch.

Sean


On Fri, May 7, 2010 at 1:52 PM, Herbert Graf <.....hkgrafKILLspamspam.....gmail.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> -

2010\05\07@160437 by Michael Watterson

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Sean Breheny wrote:
> I think the original comment about capacity was actually referring to
> charge retention when in storage (i.e., low self discharge rate) not
> the ability to store a certain amount of energy after many cycles.
>
> Lithium chemistries tend to be excellent at retaining charge while in
> storage. NiMH (at least the recent high capacity NiMH) tend to be
> awful in this regard. I once tested a batch of Energizer NH15-AA
> (2500mAh AA cells) by fully charging them, waiting some period of
> time, which I think was 3 weeks, and then discharging them and
> measuring the total AH discharged before reaching the minimum voltage.
> I found that some of them still had 70% remaining, while others were
> less than 30%. A LiPo or normal Lithium Ion would still have had >90%
> left at this point, and it would be consistent across all members of a
> batch.
>
> Sean
>  
I'd 100% agree with your analysis.  A 2700mA AA can self discharge in
one to two weeks!, and an LiPoly still work without charge after 6 months.

The AA cells seem to vary a lot by batch & brand, but basically the 1800
to 2200mA seem much better. I have a four year old occasionally used
1800mA 6 x AA NiMH pack, it's still OK. Some 2500mA seem not to bad, but
still unacceptable self discharge for anything not at least used every
few days.
Lead Gel cells *can* last 5 years, but it's recommended to replace them
annually in vital UPS/Security or at least capacity test.  I've also
seen them only last 3months. They don't like deep discharge and unlike
LiPoly / Laptop Li Packs are rarely  fitted  with  minimum  cell
voltage  switching disconnect.


2010\05\07@164046 by Isaac Marino Bavaresco

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Em 7/5/2010 17:03, Michael Watterson escreveu:
{Quote hidden}

Check these low self-discharge NiMH:

<http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=10899&Product_Name=Turnigy_AAA_LSD_800mah_Low_Self_Discharge_%28ready_to_use%29>

and

<http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=10456&Product_Name=Turnigy_AA_LSD_2200mah_Low_Self_Discharge_%28ready_to_use%29>


Regards,

Isaac



__________________________________________________
Fale com seus amigos  de graça com o novo Yahoo! Messenger
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2010\05\07@184153 by Oli Glaser

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>Cell phone batteries seem like a
>possible fit, but it seems difficult to connect to them, and I don't
>have documentation on the ones I've seen with 4 terminals (I'm assuming
>that extra terminals are connections to thermistors for temp
>monitoring).  Any recommendations?

I have recently had a similar issue with my laptop battery, no info on the
connections and no markings. Basically I wanted to hook the battery directly
to a solar panel for charging when in the middle of nowhere. I eventually
found out that most laptop batteries have six terminals, outer are usually
+/- , two are the SMBus (by the way, microchip have an app note and code for
interfacing with SMBus using a PIC16F) and the other two are /enable and
thermistor connection. I think it's a good bet that with the four terminal
phone batteries, the outer two will be +/- and the other two will be /enable
and thermistor (to figure out which was which, I just used a multimeter on
the outside two, and used a >500 ohm resistor from each outer terminal
touching each inner terminal until it registered a voltage)
There's info on Lithium Ion charging floating about on the web, and as long
as you take the correct precautions, I think they are hard to beat for
energy-to-weight-ratio/low-self-discharge/no-memory-effect etc. The new NiMH
low self discharge look good, but the lower discharge comes at the price of
less capacity (I think the larger seperator area that stops discharge also
lowers capacity) and according to wiki, the highest that are available are
2500mAh.
Here's a site with a few Li-Ions and others that might interest you:
http://www.batteryspace.com/3.7V-Modules-3200-9000-mAh.aspx


2010\05\13@211434 by ivp

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> Lithium chemistries tend to be excellent at retaining charge while in
> storage. NiMH (at least the recent high capacity NiMH) tend to be
> awful in this regard

I was passed this yesterday

http://www.tesa-electronics.co.nz/download/consumer487-pg46.pdf

A couple of us are in turmoil about the batteries for a product. We think
we've decided on 4 x AAA NiMH

The next, and probably more important question, is recharging. I've been
reading pages like this

http://www.powerstream.com/NiMH.htm

One thing I'd like a clearer explanation of is what constitutes a cycle ?

Battery lifetime/deterioration is given in cycles, but where does the
depth of a cycle come into this, particularly partial discharge/charge ?

For example, an Apple page suggests that if you use half the capacity
of a battery pack, recharge it, use half the capacity, recharge it, that
counts as one cycle

So, say we have 4 x 1000mAh NIMH. Current consumption might
be 100mAh (around 10mA load, which is fairly light) over a working
shift. Do I infer that it would take about 12 working days to complete
one cycle, whether the 100mAh (1/10th C) is replaced on a daily basis
or if it's replaced perhaps weekly. ie current out = capacity = 1 cycle

Advice I've been given is that lifetime can be extended by keeping
capacity between 20% and 80% of charge, which should be possible
with the right charger

For reference and background

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel-metal_hydride_battery

TIA

2010\05\13@211848 by ivp

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I wrote

> be 100mAh (around 10mA load, which is fairly light) over a working
> shift. Do I infer that it would take about 12 working days to complete

Sorry, was distracted. I do know my 100 times table. 10 days

2010\05\14@005412 by Sean Breheny

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Hi Joe,


On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 9:14 PM, ivp <EraseMEjoecolquittspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTclear.net.nz> wrote:
>> Lithium chemistries tend to be excellent at retaining charge while in
>> storage. NiMH (at least the recent high capacity NiMH) tend to be
>> awful in this regard
>
> I was passed this yesterday
>
> http://www.tesa-electronics.co.nz/download/consumer487-pg46.pdf

I think that the low-self-discharge models trade off some of their
capacity for lower self-discharge rate. This article seems to indicate
that there are 2 AH AA NiMH low-self-discharge cells, which is not too
far behind the 2.5 to 3 AH you can get with plain modern NiMH cells
(i.e., fast self discharge)


{Quote hidden}

Roughly this is true. A really good battery datasheet (which is rare)
will give you a chart of remaining full capacity versus cycles, and it
will have curves for various depths of discharge (DOD). Typically, a
50% DOD charge-discharge is worth about a half a cycle in terms of
life. Once you get below about 10% DOD, though, you start to do better
than 0.1 cycle per 10% charge discharge. In other words, near
DOD=100%, the "equivalent full cycles per cycle" is approximately
equal to the DOD. As you go toward less and less DOD, there is
accelerating benefit below 10% DOD. This is a rough rule of thumb,
mostly from reading about sealed lead acid batteries, but most
technologies show roughly the same effect - with some having
accelerating benefit at higher DOD than 10%.

Think of it as the battery acting like a capacitor for very small
charge/discharges.

The graph shown here about half way down the page shows the
accelerating benefit at very small DOD:

http://www.mpoweruk.com/life.htm


Sean

2010\05\14@015341 by Russell McMahon

face picon face
>> Lithium chemistries tend to be excellent at retaining charge while in
>> storage. NiMH (at least the recent high capacity NiMH) tend to be
>> awful in this regard
>
> I was passed this yesterday
>
> http://www.tesa-electronics.co.nz/download/consumer487-pg46.pdf

Like the very large majority of "NZ Consumer" tests that purportedly
contain tabular and numeric information, the results are inconsistent,
hard to interpret, lack necessary detail, are based on unknown ans
apparently suspect premises and are thus close to rubbish.

Statements that higher capacity batteries can be discharged less often
are PERHAPS saying that in a given time interval the batteries that
took longer to discharge at a given current drain could fit less
cycles into a given length of time. They make this sound like a
disadvantage.

The discharge current is not stated but MAY be 1 amp.

Stopping the discharge test at 200 cycles for batteries which had not
reached 50% of initial capacity is about useless for comparison
purposes. Any battery that fails this measure is about useless and
should rightly be disregarded, but there is no ability to compare
better performing batteries.

Using out of box capacity as a starting point discounts bedding in
effects. NimH should be cycled at least 3 times for capacity
establishment and preferably more. Initial capacity rises vastly and
by various amounts amongst various cells.

Discharge endpoint unknown, and can have significant effect on cycle life.

More ... - but basically the results are close to rubbish for useful
assessment or comparison purposes.

_______________

For NimH, v v v  approximately, cycles = summation of %_discharge/100
for all partial cycles.
ie discharging to 50% depth per cycle will very very very roughly
double cycle life but each cycle is half as big. Or discharging to
1Nth of capacity allows very very very  approximately N times cycle
life.
This is another one of saying that the total storable mAh is approx
constant and that you can have it in a few large lumpsor more smaller
lumps. This assessment is contradicted by the OLPC claim below which
suggests that modest reduction in depth of discharge gives substantial
net lifetime energy storage gains.

This is a very very very rough assessment. Factors are complex and
probably not well understood by anyone.

The long life if top and bottom of NimH capacity advice perhaps came from me.
The OLPC (One Laptop per Child) people claim a 2000 cycle life for
NimH to 50% capacity using this 80% range. They also claim 2000 cycles
with LiFePO4 using 100% deep discharge cycles.

Consider what the OLPC claim means.
A 2000 mAh (2 Ah) capacity cell my have an eg 400 cycle lifetime if
discharged to 1.0 volt at 1C and charged until voltage inversion point
using standard -delta_V charging method.
Thus total Ah input = 2Ah x 400 = 800 Ah.
Using OLPC range capacity is nominal 80% x 2Ah = 1.6 Ah and life is
now 2000 cycles.
So total Ah stored input = 1.6 Ah x 2000 = 3200 Ah.
ie by using 80% of cell capacity you get 3200/800 = 4 x cell life

This is complicated by the fact that cell capacity is falling with use
and that by not using top 10% the energy in is less as the cell
voltage is lower when charging ceases.

Overall, it does look like the OLPC approach pays substantial dividends.
One would presumably get even greater gains at further reduced
capacity utilisation.
Note that the savings are complicated by the reduced initial capacity
BUT increased real capacity over time.
(ie a cell that starts at 80% capacity and falls to 40% capacity after
200 cycles will have more absolute capacity from about 250 cycles on
than a 100% initial capacity cell that reaches 50% capacity after 400
cycles. )

I've read that the target lifetime for a hybrid automotive NimH
battery is 15 years. (Reports re replacement batteries for Prius's
suggest the real life can be shorter). 15 years x 365 days /year =~
5500 "cycles" if you consider each day's use as one cycle.

BUT eg this says the earlier ones last rather less
www.thebatteryclinic.co.nz/HybridFaq.html
(10-12 years if this is a 2010 page).
This paage says they lie
consumerguideauto.howstuffworks.com/hybrid-batteries-none-the-worse-for-wear-cga.htm
They may lie.

*** The above also says the battery state of charge window is 45% - 75%.

Outline Prius battery specs here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Prius


___________________________

> http://www.powerstream.com/NiMH.htm

Some good advice re NimH and some rubbish.
Despite what they say, most manufacturers of larger capacity NimH AA
do not allow ANY long term trickle charge.

Coulombic efficiency of NimH is not as good as Li chemistry but their
66% figure is ludicrously low.

NimH IS a hard chemistry to deal with compared to eg LiIon - LiIon is
a dream compared.
In solar use with PV panel current capacity < to << less than battery
1 hour rate (which I think is what you are dealing with) ALL the usual
charging rules fail. Easy enough is to set Vbattery max at 1.4x. Amend
for temperature and more for extra points.

Condition 5 in their ultimate charger list appears bizarre.


> One thing I'd like a clearer explanation of is what constitutes a cycle ?

Naught for your comfort laddie! And, see above.

> Battery lifetime/deterioration is given in cycles, but where does the
> depth of a cycle come into this, particularly partial discharge/charge ?
>
> For example, an Apple page suggests that if you use half the capacity
> of a battery pack, recharge it, use half the capacity, recharge it, that
> counts as one cycle

Yes - approximately - see above.

> So, say we have 4 x 1000mAh NIMH. Current consumption might
> be 100mAh (around 10mA load, which is fairly light) over a working
> shift. Do I infer that it would take about 12 working days to complete
> one cycle, whether the 100mAh (1/10th C) is replaced on a daily basis
> or if it's replaced perhaps weekly. ie current out = capacity = 1 cycle

Yes. V v v v v approximately.

>
> Advice I've been given is that lifetime can be extended by keeping
> capacity between 20% and 80% of charge, which should be possible
> with the right charger

Yes. As above.
Deciding where 80% is may be interesting.

Vbattery a guide but need to account for current and other.




               Russell

2010\05\14@024302 by ivp

face picon face
> Like the very large majority of "NZ Consumer" tests that
> purportedly contain tabular and numeric information, the
> results are inconsistent

And unfortunately they didn't mention the quality of the charging

2010\05\14@033552 by Russell McMahon

face picon face
>> Like the very large majority of "NZ Consumer" tests that
>> purportedly contain tabular and numeric information, the
>> results are inconsistent

> And unfortunately they didn't mention the quality of the charging

If you want some real world results I have a MAHA Powerex MH-C9000
charger that I could lend you SHORT TERM ! :-) - that would show you a
lot about how cells behave in a very little while. eg true
coulombetric efficiency, capacity with time and corresponding voltages
on charge and discharge etc. You have to sit and watch it or set a
timer and check it periodically to get all data but this can be
worthwhile. They should have a data logger output version. (Adding one
would almost be worthwhile!)

A marvellous charger and well worth the cost - about twice the price
of a typical retail 4 cell fast charger but much much more flexible
and useful. Short of rolling your own about as good as you'll get for
the money AFAIK. If anyone knows one better in this price range please
advise. Recommended.


       Russell

2010\05\16@060320 by Jake Anderson

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Tony Vandiver wrote:
{Quote hidden}

We use li-poly batteries in combat robots, aside from the new rule, "you
smoke you loose" being implemented in the states they are pretty ok really.
we have had 1 case of a lipoly cell "venting" (this is our whole comp)
after being in use for ~a year with massive over current draw and
getting mechanically shocked pretty dern hard.
The cell got fairly warm and put out copious smoke, which was pretty
nasty and it only slowed down after being immersed.

We also had an OEM A123 cell explode in a far more exciting if less
smoky way, it actually had the end explode out of the cell spraying
copper foil around the place.

moral of the story is batteries have lots of energy in them, if you
don't poke holes in them, don't over charge or pull 100A from a cell
rated to 20A you should be pretty ok.

Anybody with a modern phone in their pocket more than likely has a lipo
battery there, and they don't seem to be cooking off like hand grenades.

A smallish cell is probably safer than the ones we use with regards
mechanical damage too, they need to get over a certain temperature (700C
I think?) to liberate oxygen within the cell and most of the consumer
cells are only good for 1-3C discharge into a dead short which is going
to make it much harder to generate that kind of heat. The cells we use
are in the 20-40C range

some photos of the lipo "event" are at
www.robowars.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1361&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=75
just below that is what the inside of an A123 cell looks like when its
ejected at high speed from its casing.

2010\05\16@060742 by Jake Anderson

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face
Tony Vandiver wrote:
{Quote hidden}

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0pS3Gu2_tA for a video of the cell
failing whilst in combat and the match that caused it.

2010\05\16@064534 by Oli Glaser

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face

> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0pS3Gu2_tA for a video of the cell
> failing whilst in combat and the match that caused it.

Cool, I'm not sure people would be too happy about that happening with their
mobile whilst in pocket :-)


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