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'[EE] Firewire Bus'
2009\05\06@230212 by solarwind

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I just read into the firewire bus. Seems it's a peer-to-peer type bus
that has a daisychain topology. Is it used in the microcontroller
world?

It seems that it's a (very) fast bus, uses twisted pair, can daisy
chain and so on.

-- [ solarwind ] -- http://solar-blogg.blogspot.com/

2009\05\07@002206 by William \Chops\ Westfield

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On May 6, 2009, at 8:01 PM, solarwind wrote:

> I just read into the firewire bus. Seems it's a peer-to-peer type  
> bus that has a daisychain topology. Is it used in the  
> microcontroller world?

No.  A typical firewire controller is significantly larger (in both  
complexity and physical size) than most microcontrollers and connects  
directly to a high-speed bus like PCI.  And then it communicates  
faster than most micros can deal with.  More-or-less similar to high-
speed USB2.0 in both host-side complexity and speed.

Why are you being such a speed freak, anyway?

BillW

2009\05\07@003346 by solarwind

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On Thu, May 7, 2009 at 12:22 AM, William "Chops" Westfield
<spam_OUTwestfwTakeThisOuTspammac.com> wrote:
> Why are you being such a speed freak, anyway?

Because, as well as temperature data, I will be transferring large
volumes of pirated software from controller to controller.

2009\05\07@080521 by Tony Smith

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> I just read into the firewire bus. Seems it's a peer-to-peer type bus
> that has a daisychain topology. Is it used in the microcontroller
> world?


It's barely used in any world, even Apple's.

Tony

2009\05\07@082441 by Tamas Rudnai

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On Thu, May 7, 2009 at 1:03 PM, Tony Smith <.....ajsmithKILLspamspam@spam@beagle.com.au> wrote:

> It's barely used in any world, even Apple's.
>

In DV camcorders it is quite common (iLink) and is quite nice with external
HDs as well (just bought a month ago a WD 1TB external HD which has eSata,
USB 2.0 and IEEE 1394 as well. In places where security is in concern they
do not like it though as it makes the system voulnerable. For example:

http://www.engadget.com/2008/03/04/windows-passwords-easily-bypassed-over-firewire/

Tamas
--
http://www.mcuhobby.com

2009\05\07@082712 by Alan B. Pearce

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>> I just read into the firewire bus. Seems it's a peer-to-peer type bus
>> that has a daisychain topology. Is it used in the microcontroller
>> world?
>
>It's barely used in any world, even Apple's.

It seems to be fitted to laptops mainly, most used for external disk drives
and high spec cameras.

2009\05\07@085712 by Tony Smith

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> > It's barely used in any world, even Apple's.
> >
>
> In DV camcorders it is quite common (iLink) and is quite nice with
external
> HDs as well (just bought a month ago a WD 1TB external HD which has eSata,
> USB 2.0 and IEEE 1394 as well. In places where security is in concern they
> do not like it though as it makes the system voulnerable. For example:


A niche market counts as barely.

Tony

2009\05\07@085819 by Tony Smith

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> >> I just read into the firewire bus. Seems it's a peer-to-peer type bus
> >> that has a daisychain topology. Is it used in the microcontroller
> >> world?
> >
> >It's barely used in any world, even Apple's.
>
> It seems to be fitted to laptops mainly, most used for external disk
drives
> and high spec cameras.


I've notice that, even desktops now too.  Apple must have change the royalty
deal.  Shame there's really nothing to plug into it.

Tony

2009\05\07@101416 by Brian B. Riley

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Not really ... its still heavily used in digital video and quite a bit  
in digital audio. IEEE 1394a , a.k.a. FireWire 400 (400 Mbits/sec)  
though technically at a disadvantage to USB 2.0 (480 Mbits/sec) will  
deliver more data faster than the same device using USB2 _every time_.  
USB2 has an abysmal overhead.

Windows has supported FireWire since  Win98, but FW ports only started  
showing up on consumer computers in the last few years with the  
exception of Sony computer which have had them for quite a few years.  
Apples have had them for over a decade.

A big portion of Apple geekdom all have external HDs, DVD Burners, etc  
that are FW and  quite a few of the Mac 'appliance operators' do as  
well.

A few years ago Apple started  including IEEE 1394b (Fire Wire 800) on  
its high end laptops and desktops. It didn't really take off because  
neither the processors nor the drive units had the horsepower to  
sustain that data rate. That has changed. Now you find FW800 on all  
the high end LaCie, Western Digital, etc external drives both desktop  
size and small portables. There was a big deal made of Apple dropping  
even the FW400 ports off of its low end MacBook. But almost noone  
except a few surprised buyers , like myself, took notice that they  
changed  the FW400 port on the iMac line to FW800. Initially I was  
annoyed. because it meant I needed an FW400 to FW800 cable (an 800  
port steps down to 400 on the fly), but then I realized I had several  
FW400/800 drives and WOW the data transfer rates are breathtaking!

The average consumer see mostly the inexpensive USB2 peripherals at  
bargain basement prices. USB is pricey to startup for the manufacturer  
but once they join the club its not expensive. FireWire is owned by  
Apple and a lot of manufacturers don't want to pay the per port price  
for FW. So those same consumers see that external devices sporting FW  
as being more expensive and avoid them. If their time is worth  
anything they wouldn't perceive a FW enabled device as being that  
expensive.


On May 7, 2009, at 8:03 AM, Tony Smith wrote:

>> I just read into the firewire bus. Seems it's a peer-to-peer type bus
>> that has a daisychain topology. Is it used in the microcontroller
>> world?
>
>
> It's barely used in any world, even Apple's.



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2009\05\07@111521 by Tony Smith

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> Not really ... its still heavily used in digital video and quite a bit
> in digital audio. IEEE 1394a , a.k.a. FireWire 400 (400 Mbits/sec)
> though technically at a disadvantage to USB 2.0 (480 Mbits/sec) will
> deliver more data faster than the same device using USB2 _every time_.
> USB2 has an abysmal overhead.
>
> Windows has supported FireWire since  Win98, but FW ports only started
> showing up on consumer computers in the last few years with the
> exception of Sony computer which have had them for quite a few years.
> Apples have had them for over a decade.
>
> A big portion of Apple geekdom all have external HDs, DVD Burners, etc
> that are FW and  quite a few of the Mac 'appliance operators' do as
> well.
>
> A few years ago Apple started  including IEEE 1394b (Fire Wire 800) on
> its high end laptops and desktops. It didn't really take off because
> neither the processors nor the drive units had the horsepower to


That practically defines niche.

Penetration = Total Market x  % Mac owners x % Firewire users

Toss in a few Wintel videocam owners too.  A better result than the Drake
equation though.

Tony

2009\05\07@113535 by Mark Rages

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On Thu, May 7, 2009 at 10:13 AM, Tony Smith <ajsmithspamKILLspambeagle.com.au> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Actually, Apple is moving on from Firewire:

http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/08/1/16/jobs_responds_to_outrage_over_macbooks_missing_firewire.html

Firewire was great for SD camcorders though.  I'll miss it.

Regards,
Mark
markrages@gmail
--
Mark Rages, Engineer
Midwest Telecine LLC
.....markragesKILLspamspam.....midwesttelecine.com

2009\05\07@115320 by Robert Kiely

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I agree it isn't a popular interface but don't forget mLAN which is on many
pro-audio devices too...

Rob

2009\05\07@120610 by Tamas Rudnai

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On Thu, May 7, 2009 at 4:13 PM, Tony Smith <EraseMEajsmithspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTbeagle.com.au> wrote:

> That practically defines niche.
>
> Penetration = Total Market x  % Mac owners x % Firewire users
>
> Toss in a few Wintel videocam owners too.  A better result than the Drake
> equation though.
>


How many Mac users are here?
How many of you have (or even use :-) ) firewire?
...and How many have (or even use) firewire but _not_ with Mac?  -- Me is
already one

Tamas
--
http://www.mcuhobby.com

2009\05\07@123748 by Bob Blick

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If you want to do a poll, please do it [OT], thanks.

Cheerful regards,

Bob

On Thu, 7 May 2009 17:06:08 +0100, "Tamas Rudnai"
<tamas.rudnaispamspam_OUTgmail.com> said:
{Quote hidden}

> --

2009\05\07@175331 by Tony Smith

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> > That practically defines niche.
> >
> > Penetration = Total Market x  % Mac owners x % Firewire users
> >
> > Toss in a few Wintel videocam owners too.  A better result than the
Drake
> > equation though.
> >
>
>
> How many Mac users are here?
> How many of you have (or even use :-) ) firewire?
> ...and How many have (or even use) firewire but _not_ with Mac?  -- Me is
> already one


Hmm, ambiguous comment detected.  So you:

   - have Firewire on a non-Mac platform, or
   - have used Firewire on said non-Mac platform.

Every time it's mentioned, many comments seem to be 'Firewire is great!
...well, I don't use it myself, but some of my best friends do."

FWIW, the only Firewire device I've ever encountered was my brother's old
iPod.  I'm not sure he even used it with Firewire though; he did buy a card,
but I'm not sure he ever bothered to install it.  I think it's still sitting
on his desk (and he upgrade the iPod anyway, new ones are USB only).

I wonder if Dell still make you pay extra for the Firewire connectors (it's
standard on their motherboards).

Tony

2009\05\08@000856 by Nate Duehr

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On May 7, 2009, at 3:51 PM, Tony Smith wrote:

>>> That practically defines niche.
>>>
>>> Penetration = Total Market x  % Mac owners x % Firewire users
>>>
>>> Toss in a few Wintel videocam owners too.  A better result than the
> Drake
>>> equation though.
>>>
>>
>>
>> How many Mac users are here?
>> How many of you have (or even use :-) ) firewire?
>> ...and How many have (or even use) firewire but _not_ with Mac?  --  
>> Me is
>> already one

Mac user here... Firewire external hard disk in regular use.

Have also used Firewire cards in Linux machines as a quick and dirty  
"internal IP network" in a rack cabinet before... was silly easy.

And also have an M-Audio "pro-sumer" grade audio device that's  
Firewire, for feeding XLR inputs and instrument inputs into Audacity...

--
Nate Duehr
KILLspamnateKILLspamspamnatetech.com




2009\05\08@122025 by Mike Hord

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We use it quite a bit with a microcontroller.  Granted, the uC isn't the data
generator, but it can be done.

In our case, the uC arbitrates between the FireWire link chip and a data
source (a couple of CMOS imagers).  The uC has very little to do, really-
it just gates the data so the FireWire link doesn't get overrun.

Consumer products aren't using FireWire much, but it's got a pretty
strong following in other realms.  Anywhere that a robust, high speed
data transfer is required, FireWire shines.  Plus, it can be easily
done over optical links for added robustness.

You'll never get it working at a hobby level.  Not an indictment of
your skill or anything, just an honest understanding of what is needed
in terms of board layout and design to use it.

Mike H.

On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 10:01 PM, solarwind <RemoveMEx.solarwind.xTakeThisOuTspamgmail.com> wrote:
> I just read into the firewire bus. Seems it's a peer-to-peer type bus
> that has a daisychain topology. Is it used in the microcontroller
> world?
>
> It seems that it's a (very) fast bus, uses twisted pair, can daisy
> chain and so on.

2009\05\08@152137 by Tamas Rudnai

face picon face
On Thu, May 7, 2009 at 10:51 PM, Tony Smith <spamBeGoneajsmithspamBeGonespambeagle.com.au> wrote:

> Hmm, ambiguous comment detected.  So you:
>
>    - have Firewire on a non-Mac platform, or
>    - have used Firewire on said non-Mac platform.
>

I have a Dell Vostro 1700 notebook with IEEE 1394 (Firewire 400) with the
small (4pin) connector. I use Ubuntu 8.10/32bit (well, as 9.04/64bit was
unreliable+bogous). the internal disk is basically two 5400rpm disks in RAID
0 (stripe) so both read and write operation is theoretically doubled but I
have som doubts on it anyway.  I also have an external WD My Book 1TB disk
with 4 ports on it (USB 2.0, eSata and 2 FW 400/800). I am not even sure why
is that second FW port actually, can you cascade other drives like a daisy
chain?

Anyway, if I use the USB 2.0 coping large files from the external to the
internal one then I can achieve around 21MB/s. If I do the same with the
FireWire then it is about 35MB/s. Coping from internal to internal the speed
is going to be 16MB/s (I guess because both in and out is on the same
controller so it cannot do the read and the write in parallel). Doing the
same on the external with the FireWire the speed is about 14MB/s but I also
have AES256 encryption on the external drive so I cannot tell what is the
pure speed. Repeating the test with the USB 2.0 cable the speed goes down to
10MB/s.

Overall I found the FireWire awesome except that everything is more
expensive for that (the drive and the cables as well).

Tamas
--
http://www.mcuhobby.com

2009\05\08@153527 by Dwayne Reid

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At 09:13 AM 5/7/2009, Tony Smith wrote:

>That practically defines niche.
>
>Penetration = Total Market x  % Mac owners x % Firewire users
>
>Toss in a few Wintel videocam owners too.  A better result than the Drake
>equation though.

Add in Pro Audio users - recording studios and such.

Specific example: my buddy does location recording as a hobby -
Tascam X-48 digital recorders connected to Glyph Fire-Wire
hot-swappable hard drive bays.  Seems that most (all?) of his clients
prefer to receive their data on a hard drive equipped with Fire-Wire
ports.  I strongly suspect that's because of all the Pro-Tools rigs
out there (its an Apple world when it comes to Pro Tools).

Again - niche market.  I'm getting the feeling, though, that are a
LOT of niche markets out there.  They might not amount to much
individually but I think that the aggregate total would surprise many of us.

dwayne

--
Dwayne Reid   <TakeThisOuTdwaynerEraseMEspamspam_OUTplanet.eon.net>
Trinity Electronics Systems Ltd    Edmonton, AB, CANADA
(780) 489-3199 voice          (780) 487-6397 fax
http://www.trinity-electronics.com
Custom Electronics Design and Manufacturing

2009\05\08@154321 by Bob Blick

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Second notice.

This is not [EE] guys. Please move it [OT].

Thanks,

Bob


On Fri, 08 May 2009 13:35:24 -0600, "Dwayne Reid"
<RemoveMEdwaynerspamTakeThisOuTplanet.eon.net> said:
{Quote hidden}

> --

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