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'[EE] Fiducials in Eagle?'
2005\05\30@151214 by PicDude

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Need to add a few fiducials to a board using Eagle, and a couple unanswered
Q's remain --  Is there a standard for Fiducials?  And how do I create these
with Eagle?

Cheers,
-Neil.


2005\05\30@153200 by olin_piclist

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PicDude wrote:
> Need to add a few fiducials

WTF?

*****************************************************************
Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts
(978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com

2005\05\30@162240 by Glenn Jones

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It seems odd that the first reply to a thread would be "WTF?". There
are many threads where I have no clue what the OP is talking about,
but after a few responses, I learn what is being discussed. Anyway, it
seems like a waste of time to generate such a reply.
As it happens I just learned the sense of the word fiducial that I
think the OP using the other day.  It just means a reference point.
Unfortunately, I have no idea what sort of standard reference points
are used in PCB manufacturing, but it seems to me it would be easy to
make a library of whatever pattern you needed.

On 5/30/05, Olin Lathrop <spam_OUTolin_piclistTakeThisOuTspamembedinc.com> wrote:
> PicDude wrote:
> > Need to add a few fiducials
>
> WTF?
>
> *****************************************************************
> Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts
> (978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com
> -

2005\05\30@163210 by PicDude

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On Monday 30 May 2005 02:31 pm, Olin Lathrop scribbled:
> PicDude wrote:
> > Need to add a few fiducials
>
> WTF?


Perhaps someone else has something more useful/intelligible to say...?

Cheers,
-Neil.


2005\05\30@165216 by Dave King

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Neil

They are in the libs under a wierd name. I used them last fall so I could
plot and check before sending the files to the boardhouse. I know I was
also looking for them gave up and then sort of stumbled across them.
Having said that I am having a senior moment and can't think of what/where.
I'm just gonna go look at my wallet now and see if I'm using the right
name...

Dave

{Quote hidden}

> -

2005\05\30@170339 by PicDude

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On Monday 30 May 2005 03:22 pm, Glenn Jones scribbled:
> It seems odd that the first reply to a thread would be "WTF?". There
> are many threads where I have no clue what the OP is talking about,
> but after a few responses, I learn what is being discussed. Anyway, it
> seems like a waste of time to generate such a reply.
> As it happens I just learned the sense of the word fiducial that I
> think the OP using the other day.  It just means a reference point.
> Unfortunately, I have no idea what sort of standard reference points
> are used in PCB manufacturing, but it seems to me it would be easy to
> make a library of whatever pattern you needed.


I would think it would be well understood in this forum, but if not, I agree
about the response.  The best I found is here...
       http://www.tkb-4u.com/articles/other/fiducial/fiducial.php

But one of the CM's I'm currently working with asked me to add these to a
board we've been working on, and at first I thought it would be
straightforward.  But on further investigation, I wonder if there is a
standard, and a simple way to add this in eagle.  Can't reach them today
(holiday), and hoping to get this done today before I leave town for the day
tomorrow.

Looking at what that page shows as "common used fiducials", it raises the
question as to how the machine differentiates these from pads, etc?  Is it
the shape?  The size?  A specific pattern?  That there is an area of no
soldermask around it?

Cheers,
-Neil.


2005\05\30@170552 by PicDude

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Dave!  How've you been doing sir?

If they're in there, I'll check around.  This is gonna be one of those things
that hits me in the face like the import-bmp, isn't it? :-(

Cheers,
-Neil.


On Monday 30 May 2005 03:51 pm, Dave King scribbled:
{Quote hidden}

2005\05\30@172213 by Robert Young

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> -----Original Message-----
> From: .....piclist-bouncesKILLspamspam@spam@mit.edu
> [piclist-bouncesspamKILLspammit.edu] On Behalf Of PicDude
> Sent: Monday, May 30, 2005 2:15 PM
> To: .....piclistKILLspamspam.....mit.edu
> Subject: [EE] Fiducials in Eagle?
>
>
> Need to add a few fiducials to a board using Eagle, and a
> couple unanswered
> Q's remain --  Is there a standard for Fiducials?  And how do
> I create these
> with Eagle?
>
> Cheers,
> -Neil.
>

There is a library (board symbols only) with fudicial marks (named
marks.lbr of all things).  With your board open, "use marks.lbr" and
then "add" from that library.  

If you already have an assembly house chosen, ask them what kind of
marks (pattern, layer, etc) they prefer.  For example they might ask
that you make the marks on the top copper layer instead of the silk
screen to minimize problems with silkscreen misregistration.

Rob

2005\05\30@174429 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face

On May 30, 2005, at 12:31 PM, Olin Lathrop wrote:

>> Need to add a few fiducials
>
> WTF?
>
Reference markers.  RTF Dictionary :-)
(although webster.com says it's an adjective.)

There are some things that might serve in the "marks" library,
and I think I've seen some discussion on the Eagle forums (which
are pretty informative in general...)

BillW


2005\05\30@181408 by olin_piclist

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William Chops Westfield wrote:
>>> Need to add a few fiducials
>>
>> WTF?
>>
> Reference markers.

Ah.  Now I think I sortof remember that term applied to alignment marks in
color printing.

> RTF Dictionary :-)

I certainly would if *I* needed to know.  But that's a bit much to expect
when asking someone for a favor.


*****************************************************************
Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts
(978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com

2005\05\30@183631 by PicDude

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Got em.  Thanks.  I guess I'll need to wait to find out which ones they
prefer.

Cheers,
-Neil.



On Monday 30 May 2005 04:44 pm, William "Chops" Westfield scribbled:
{Quote hidden}

2005\05\31@025008 by Dave King

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Hi Neil

Semi slowly losing my sanity ie about average with a teenager in the house.

I see someone posted where they are. Now if someone can explain why they are
so tough to get rid of the odd time. I thought they would behave like any
part, nope, on one board could not get rid of them and actually scrapped the
board layout as they were in just the wrong spot.

Hey did you have any more of those mp4250's cluttering up the place?

Dave

{Quote hidden}

>

2005\05\31@054107 by Alan B. Pearce

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>I would think it would be well understood in this forum, but
>if not, I agree about the response.  The best I found is here...
>http://www.tkb-4u.com/articles/other/fiducial/fiducial.php

I remember back in the days when PCBs were laid out with tape we used
fiducial marks to set up the corner points, and on a multilayer PCB they
became the reference marks for aligning the layers. The ones we used were
crosses similar to the second one in the Figure 3 of the above link, but
with opposite quadrants filled in, a bit like the BMW symbol, and with fine
lines extending beyond the filled areas.

2005\05\31@102729 by Herbert Graf

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On Mon, 2005-05-30 at 18:14 -0400, Olin Lathrop wrote:
> > RTF Dictionary :-)
>
> I certainly would if *I* needed to know.  But that's a bit much to expect
> when asking someone for a favor.

No Olin, sorry, that simply doesn't fly anymore, it isn't too much to
expect.

How much of your time would have been taken by going to google and
typing: "fiducial definition". The answer is the first hit.

Heck, if you were using firefox you wouldn't have even needed to type
"google" in.

Instead you decided to waste your time and all of our time with a
pointless post that generated a bunch of other pointless posts, when 5
seconds of your own time on google would have answered the question.

Consider other people's time next time please. TTYL

-----------------------------
Herbert's PIC Stuff:
http://repatch.dyndns.org:8383/pic_stuff/

2005\05\31@123143 by Peter

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On Mon, 30 May 2005, Olin Lathrop wrote:

> PicDude wrote:
>> Need to add a few fiducials
>
> WTF?

Of course you know that if this acronym does not stand for World
Television Forum you're out (again) ? ;-)

Peter

2005\05\31@132227 by alan smith

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Interesting....in the fact that our CM's have always
asked for fudicials, for several years, when
programming the pick n place machines.  They are used
by the cameras in order to check the x/y alignments
when placing the thousand or so parts on a board.

Guess some CM's still aren't using modern equipment...

--- Olin Lathrop <EraseMEolin_piclistspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTembedinc.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

*****************************************************************
> Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton
> Massachusetts
> (978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com
> --


'[EE] Fiducials in Eagle?'
2005\06\01@120034 by PicDude
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On Tuesday 31 May 2005 01:49 am, Dave King scribbled:
> Hi Neil
>
> Semi slowly losing my sanity ie about average with a teenager in the house.
>
> I see someone posted where they are. Now if someone can explain why they
> are so tough to get rid of the odd time. I thought they would behave like
> any part, nope, on one board could not get rid of them and actually
> scrapped the board layout as they were in just the wrong spot.
>
> Hey did you have any more of those mp4250's cluttering up the place?
>
> Dave


Odd, I tried adding a couple different ones, and then easily deleted them.  
Are you sure you did not have tOrigins or bOrigins switched off?

BTW, no mpx4250's anymore.  I have some 5700's, but I need those.

Cheers,
-Neil.



2005\06\01@120256 by PicDude

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On Tuesday 31 May 2005 04:41 am, Alan B. Pearce scribbled:
> ... The ones we used were
> crosses similar to the second one in the Figure 3 of the above link, but
> with opposite quadrants filled in, a bit like the BMW symbol, and with fine
> lines extending beyond the filled areas.

That one's available ("PASS-ROUND" in the "marks" library), but I might need
to go create one that looks like an Audi or Ford symbol :-)

Cheers,
-Neil.



2005\06\01@165158 by Dave King

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I must have had something turned off as I did get them to work
as expected but the one time they wouldn't go away or move and
didn;t seem to be on any layer at all. Was very weird.

I have some of the surface mount sensors and was hoping to avoid
a board redesign but I guess I better bite the bullet and go surface
mount with the whole thing.

Dave


> Odd, I tried adding a couple different ones, and then easily
> deleted them.  
> Are you sure you did not have tOrigins or bOrigins switched off?
>
> BTW, no mpx4250's anymore.  I have some 5700's, but I need those.
>
> Cheers,
> -Neil.


2005\06\02@075405 by olin_piclist

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Dave King wrote:
> I must have had something turned off as I did get them to work
> as expected but the one time they wouldn't go away or move and
> didn;t seem to be on any layer at all. Was very weird.

You probably had the origins layer turned off at that time for some reason.

*****************************************************************
Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts
(978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com

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