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'[EE] Energy saving product? Yeah right.'
2007\01\24@104326 by Mark Scoville

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Hi Piclisters,

My boss has asked me to evaluate a device (which I can't get a hold of to
see) which supposedly saves gobs of money on electricity (sound familiar).

Anyway, this device, hooks to the incoming power. My initial reaction was
"Oh, power factor correction". My boss says "oh no, they say this is not
power factor correction". Ok what is it then. Nobody is telling me. This is
all I am being told - I don't have any details.

Some of the claims for this magical device... (Feel free to laugh out loud
at some, most or all of these)

Motors run cooler
Light bulb and ballasts run cooler
Transformers, panels, switchgear, breakers, starters, controls run cooler
SCRs, diodes, switching transistors and microprocessors all run cooler
Switching power supplies are more stable
Process and production controls are more accurate and reliable
Air conditioning and refrigeration is more effective and reliable
In-House and outside maintenance and repair labor costs decrease
Equipment repair and maintenance parts cost decrease
Light bulb and ballast replacement costs decrease
Costs to production or process downtime are decreased
Computer data is more secure and safe
Computer operation is more reliable and safe
Communications systems are more reliable
Lights flicker less

I do know you can save some $$ with power factor correction - but I
seriously doubt some of the above claims. For example, how is hooking a
gizmo to my mains going to make my uP run any cooler? Light bulbs run
cooler?

They do stop short of telling me my hair will grow back and I'll lose 20
pounds.

I'm curious to hear comments from the list on some of the more "interesting"
claims :) Have fun.

-- Mark

Doesn't matter what your business card says...
We're all in the results business.



2007\01\24@110234 by PAUL James

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Mark,

I don't see anything about it in you post, so I'm assuming the answer is
no,
but it begs to be asked anyway.  "Does your boss have a name for this
product"?  
Even if you can't hold it in your hand, you might be able to find out
something about
it if you have a name. (obviously).  Or how about a manufacturer?   Or
is this still a
Developmental product?   How long has this product been available?  Or
how long has it
existed in whatever form it is in?  Where (how) is it sold and/or
distributed?  Is it,
or was it, developed by industry, by a university, or by a private
company?   There are
all sorts of questions I could ask.  See if you boss has any answers to
these.

If I come up with anything, I'll let you know.

Good luck.


                                                       Regards,

                                                         Jim




{Original Message removed}

2007\01\24@112155 by Philip Pemberton

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Mark Scoville wrote:
> Some of the claims for this magical device... (Feel free to laugh out loud
> at some, most or all of these)

[snip]

> I do know you can save some $$ with power factor correction - but I
> seriously doubt some of the above claims. For example, how is hooking a
> gizmo to my mains going to make my uP run any cooler? Light bulbs run
> cooler?

Unless it reduces the incoming voltage significantly (and thus cacks up SMPSUs
and PSUs in general), it's not. To do what it claims, you'd need zero-point
energy, perpetual motion or something similar. I call bullshit.

If your boss has actually bought this thing, might I ask if he's also
interested in purchasing a lovely suspension bridge in New York?

:-P

--
Phil.                         |  (\_/)  This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny
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2007\01\24@113116 by piclist

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The device you're looking for is called a blown fuse, and sometimes called a
tripped breaker.  Once the fuse blows, or the breaker opens, there is no power
on the line at all and that makes everything run cooler.

Motors run cooler - no current, no heat!
Light bulb and ballasts run cooler - no current, no heat!
Transformers, panels, switchgear, breakers, starters, controls run cooler -
again, no current no heat!
SCRs, diodes, switching transistors and microprocessors all run cooler - the
magical no current no heat applies here too!
Switching power supplies are more stable - zero current AND volts means NO
ripple!
Process and production controls are more accurate and reliable - absolutely,
they're off and you'll always know exactly what's going on!
Air conditioning and refrigeration is more effective and reliable - again, no
current, no heat, no need for AC
In-House and outside maintenance and repair labor costs decrease - if
it is off
you won't know that it is broken, therefore you won't fix it, which saves you
tons of money!
Equipment repair and maintenance parts cost decrease - same as previous one
Light bulb and ballast replacement costs decrease - they'll never go bad!
Costs to production or process downtime are decreased - think of all the money
you save in that electrical bill!
Computer data is more secure and safe - absolutely!  No current, no
mips, no way
for viruses or hacker to screw up you data
Computer operation is more reliable and safe - dito!
Communications systems are more reliable - yes, it is called sound and it is
produced by your vocal cords!  It requires not electricity!
Lights flicker less - they won't flicker at all ever again as long as the fuse
is blown!


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2007\01\24@113755 by Wouter van Ooijen

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> Some of the claims for this magical device... (Feel free to
> laugh out loud at some, most or all of these)

Wouldn't a simple wire cutter achieve all these effects?

Otherwise: if your boss takes something like this seriously I am glad I
don't work for him.

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2007\01\24@115921 by Steve Smith

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Ah Ha
I remember a bit about this from many years ago... Using a taped inductor
and a capacitor it is possible to pull the current so far out of phase with
the voltage the electric meter (works on mechanical ones) goes backwards
when a high current (cooker) is consumed. Not exactly sure how these work
but the inductor is taped and the capacitor is taken from N to the tap and
the line current through the whole winding. I think there was a magnetic
shunt in part of the winding and it was defiantly a gaped core about 3Kva
frame size and it was wound with about 8mm wire. I have seen one but it must
have been 15 yrs ago.
Maybe this is what it does but I doubt it...

Steve


{Original Message removed}

2007\01\24@121025 by Harold Hallikainen

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>
> If your boss has actually bought this thing, might I ask if he's also
> interested in purchasing a lovely suspension bridge in New York?
>


I think there was a Laurel and Hardy quote about that bridge:

We haven't made a mistake this big since we bought that bridge in Brooklyn!

Just you wait. Some day that bridge will be valuable!


Harold

--
FCC Rules Updated Daily at http://www.hallikainen.com - Advertising
opportunities available!

2007\01\24@122858 by Mark Scoville

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I like the wire cutter idea. There might also be a market for burned out
bulbs - they run lots cooler!

My boss and I spent a good part of the morning reading the info we have
(which I can't share) and laughing. This is being driven by someone many
levels above my boss and I. We just do what we are asked. I keep telling my
boss that I just work here for the entertainment :)

-- Mark

> {Original Message removed}

2007\01\24@123144 by Peiserma

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piclist-bounces@mit.edu wrote:
> I
> think there was a magnetic shunt in part of the winding


That's it! It must be a magnet like those "magnetic fuel savers" that
you clip onto your fuel line to increase efficiency, gain horsepower,
and cure world hunger.


2007\01\24@124812 by Mark Scoville

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Yeah, we called it hooey too. This "project" is being driven by someone much
higher up than me or my boss.

Ha Ha, No, we haven't bought anything. I couldn't possibly write out a PO -
I'm laughing so hard the tears are blurring my vision.

I suspected most of the piclisters would share our skepticism.

{Quote hidden}

> -

2007\01\24@125010 by Mark Scoville

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You've got all the info I can give out. Supposedly this exists, and one of
our (non-technical) guys has witnessed it's operation. I had the info in my
hands for approx 2 minutes befor I started using terms like Bullshit,
Hucksters etc. I'd love to get my hands on this and disprove it.

-- Mark


{Quote hidden}

2007\01\24@130845 by Mark Scoville

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My boss and I aren't interested. However, the higher-ups want to know what
color? and how much?

> If your boss has actually bought this thing, might I ask if he's also
> interested in purchasing a lovely suspension bridge in New York?



2007\01\24@130938 by Alan B. Pearce

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>You've got all the info I can give out. Supposedly this exists,
>and one of our (non-technical) guys has witnessed it's operation.
>I had the info in my hands for approx 2 minutes befor I started
>using terms like Bullshit, Hucksters etc. I'd love to get my
>hands on this and disprove it.

Guess you could always ask him to write out an approval, and then spend the
money on something else ...

2007\01\24@133802 by Philip Pemberton

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Mark Scoville wrote:
> My boss and I aren't interested. However, the higher-ups want to know what
> color? and how much?

Sounds very much like management to me.

The Vendor Says: It'll save you loads of money!
The Engineer Says: It's a scam.
The Manager Says: It sounds like it could work, if the Laws of Physics didn't
exist.
The CEO Says: I want one!

I wonder if anyone's actually done any work on correlating management position
with apparent IQ level...

--
Phil.                         |  (\_/)  This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny
piclistspamKILLspamphilpem.me.uk         | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain
http://www.philpem.me.uk/     | (")_(") world domination.

2007\01\24@140717 by Harold Hallikainen

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Maybe this whole thing should be sent to Scott Adams for a Dilbert strip.

Harold


{Quote hidden}

> -

2007\01\24@141256 by Harold Hallikainen

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A Google search on one of the claims turns up this:

http://www.fivestares.com/benefits-only-positive-side-effects.html


Harold



--
FCC Rules Updated Daily at http://www.hallikainen.com - Advertising
opportunities available!

2007\01\24@144424 by M. Adam Davis

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Sounds similar to a consulting job I turned down a few years ago.

Essentially it was a dimmer.  A micro would turn the triac on a few
hundred uS to a few mS after zero crossing.  Configurable by the
installer.

It would certainly work at many levels against some of the claims you
mention above.

Some of the other claims, though, such as motor heating may be
worsened by treating them in this manner.  I suppose AC/DC motors
would be fine, but induction motors, transformers, etc would have much
higher heating - though may still use less electricity overall, while
delivering significantly less power to their load depending on how
exactly they were mistreated..

PC power supplies and many cheap SMPS wouldn't be affected, since most
use rectifiers and/or voltage doublers right off the bat and deal with
DC.  Wouldn't get much savings in this area either.

You'll probably find that they'll require a consultant to come in an
do an energy audit and determine what devices could use their
solution, and then they'll do the installation themselves.

Of course, it was more technically complex than described above, but
it boils down to the essential (and not under NDA) description and
simple analysis above.

To meet all of the aforementioned claims would take a more complicated
device than what I was asked to design.  Perhaps they have a variety
of solutions for each load type.

-Adam

On 1/24/07, Mark Scoville <EraseMEmscovillespam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTunicontrolinc.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> -

2007\01\24@150059 by Peter Bindels

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All those except for the "more secure data" sound like a really big
capacitor. All including that one sound like snake oil.

On 24/01/07, Mark Scoville <mscovillespamspam_OUTunicontrolinc.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> -

2007\01\24@153728 by Mark Scoville

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Wow Harold. That's incredible. The list is almost identical. These aren't
the guys we are dealing with (unless we are indirectly and don't know it!).

>
> A Google search on one of the claims turns up this:
>
> http://www.fivestares.com/benefits-only-positive-side-effects.html
>
>
> Harold
>



2007\01\24@155237 by Harold Hallikainen

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Google is pretty amazing! I wonder if these people stare at you five times
or if they spelled stars incorrectly....

Harold


{Quote hidden}

> -

2007\01\24@165313 by Jinx

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> Google is pretty amazing! I wonder if these people stare at you five times
> or if they spelled stars incorrectly....

I had a double-take on that. Thought it might have been like Five
Stares, as in you need to keep looking at it to get over the disbelief

It's Five Star Energy Solutions though

Bit naughty of Mark's boss to say it's not power correction (guess he's
just repeating what he'd been told). But if you're competing with shed-
loads of power correction products, you would say it's something else
wouldn't you

2007\01\24@174121 by Jeff Findley

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"Harold Hallikainen" <@spam@haroldKILLspamspamhallikainen.org> wrote in message
news:KILLspam37491.207.177.227.29.1169665968.squirrelKILLspamspamsujan.hallikainen.org...> >A Google search on one of the claims turns up this:
>
>
http://www.fivestares.com/benefits-only-positive-side-effects.html

All the claims on the above web site look like the claims in the original
posting, but with one additional claim at the bottom of the list:

   Improved Power Factor.

Jeff
--
   "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a
    little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor
    safety"
- B. Franklin, Bartlett's Familiar Quotations (1919)



2007\01\24@182111 by Harold Hallikainen

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>
>
>> Google is pretty amazing! I wonder if these people stare at you five
>> times
>> or if they spelled stars incorrectly....
>
> I had a double-take on that. Thought it might have been like Five
> Stares, as in you need to keep looking at it to get over the disbelief
>
> It's Five Star Energy Solutions though


Oh! I get it now! The "es" at the end is Energy Solutions. I just read it
as stares...

Harold

--
FCC Rules Updated Daily at http://www.hallikainen.com - Advertising
opportunities available!

2007\01\25@055830 by Michael Rigby-Jones

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{Quote hidden}

Maybe they were too cheap to buy the fivestar.com domain from whoever is currently sitting on it!

Mike

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