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'[EE] Eagle tracks - drawn vs produced'
2005\03\11@172828
by
Jinx
I got some boards back yesterday. They're "OK" but I've some
questions for the producer on Monday morning
One issue (amongst others that I want answers to, grrrr) is that
the signal lines have come out a lot thinner than I intended. They're
useable, solid, and should work fine but they aren't what I wanted
or thought I asked for
http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/joecolquitt/tracks.gif
I specified 10mil for these traces. The thicker tracks and SMT
pads have come out correctly (the 30 on the right is an 0603 R)
Note how the space between the tracks is not the same as the
Eagle screen-grab on the right and
Now, is this a case of the board house over-etching (is that to be
expected with fine tracks ?) or should I have used a much finer
grid than 0.005" and laid out thicker tracks with minimal space
between copper ?
Obviously I'll be consulting with the boardhouse on Monday but
I'd like some feedback about this before then
TIA
2005\03\11@181458
by
Bob Blick
> One issue (amongst others that I want answers to, grrrr) is that
> the signal lines have come out a lot thinner than I intended. They're
> useable, solid, and should work fine but they aren't what I wanted
> or thought I asked for
Did you check your output files with a third-party Gerber viewer?
Cheerful regards,
Bob
2005\03\11@192936
by
Jinx
> Did you check your output files with a third-party Gerber viewer?
I gave the board house only project files and left Gerber creation to
them. What would you suggest ? The board house uses full Eagle
<quite disappointed and trying not to whine but I feel let down>
But that was a kind of default "left". I didn't give them the go-ahead to
actually produce the boards and wanted to talk about some aspects of
them first, tracks being one them. Although they'd been notified about
these aspects by e-mail, drawings included, that's been largely ignored
and the board doesn't look as it's supposed to. It shouldn't even exist
physically but I already said that. Don't get me wrong, the circuit tracks
themselves look OK (whether it works is down to me of course) but
for example the pattern is not centred and I'll have to shave some of the
empty PCB off the LHS. It has to fit in an enclosure with corner posts
and mounting pillars (and has pushbuttons and a display that must match
with cutouts) so if you make one end and those fit that leaves the one
end with no PCB to screw through. There'll be some kludging needed
to use this initial panel if I have to but .......
</feeling a bit better but still pissed off>
2005\03\11@225129
by
Paul Hutchinson
|
> -----Original Message-----
> From: spam_OUTpiclist-bouncesTakeThisOuT
mit.edu On Behalf Of Jinx
> Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 5:28 PM
>
> I got some boards back yesterday. They're "OK" but I've some
<snip>
>
> Now, is this a case of the board house over-etching (is that to be
> expected with fine tracks ?) or should I have used a much finer
> grid than 0.005" and laid out thicker tracks with minimal space
> between copper ?
They over-etched the PCB but, its probably within their standard tolerances.
Sadly a +/- 0.003" tolerance on trace width/air gap is not the worst I've
encountered. Look on the bright side, it could be worse, you could be
hauling out the Exacto knife to cut away shorts from under-etching the PCB.
BTDTGTTS ;-)
They probably should have let the larger traces come out 5% or 10% too wide
ending up closer to the specified 0.010" width on the small traces. However,
that could make the smt pads too big for some assembly houses and, if there
are tighter areas on the PCB the over sized traces might have created
shorts.
You need to find out what the PCB makers tolerances are and design the PCB
to those limits or, use a different vendor. There is a wide variety of
standard tolerances among PCB fabs so, finding one that meets your
expectations shouldn't be too hard.
For a shop with a +/-0.003" tolerance I typically use 0.012" traces leaving
0.013" air gap so that I end up with 0.009" to 0.015" traces.
Paul
> Obviously I'll be consulting with the boardhouse on Monday but
> I'd like some feedback about this before then
>
> TIA
>
2005\03\12@012908
by
Roland
|
My 2 cents;
The 10mil tracks definitely look thinner;
A perception I have when doing a board is it looks very cluttered on the
screen. So a board I did a while back, I had the signal traces at 10mil.
When I got the boards, the tracks were sooo thin, and the board looked
kinda sparse. What was the fuss about, I thought!
The last boards I did, the screen looked even more cluttered, but I used
16mil signal traces, with a 12mil DRC.
When I got the boards back, the tracks STILL looked piss-willy, and the
board still had tons of space on it.
So 16mil is my new min. norm, but if I absolutely have to, then I'll
squeeze the track down to 10mil, but only at the point of congestion.
A good solution for me; use a snap-to grid of 5, and a 16mil track. Then
spacing tracks 30mil apart gives a 14mil clearance.
I thinks it's better to have wide traces and narrower gaps, because the
gaps will etch first compared to large planes. I think one has to bear the
physical process of etching in mind. A board with fine traces and large
blank areas will, (I think) be more difficult to etch, so it's easier to
supply an 'easy' board than fight with the board house. (might get flamed
here)
Errors on registration and trim size, however, are not acceptable.
I often spend time examining commercial boards, looking at how they did it.
A giveaway as to the skill of the layer/ cost of the router, is the general
number of via's on a board.
Regards
Roland
At 11:28 AM 12/03/2005 +1300, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}>I got some boards back yesterday. They're "OK" but I've some
>questions for the producer on Monday morning
>
>One issue (amongst others that I want answers to, grrrr) is that
>the signal lines have come out a lot thinner than I intended. They're
>useable, solid, and should work fine but they aren't what I wanted
>or thought I asked for
>
>
http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/joecolquitt/tracks.gif
>
>I specified 10mil for these traces. The thicker tracks and SMT
>pads have come out correctly (the 30 on the right is an 0603 R)
>
>Note how the space between the tracks is not the same as the
>Eagle screen-grab on the right and
>
>Now, is this a case of the board house over-etching (is that to be
>expected with fine tracks ?) or should I have used a much finer
>grid than 0.005" and laid out thicker tracks with minimal space
>between copper ?
>
>Obviously I'll be consulting with the boardhouse on Monday but
>I'd like some feedback about this before then
>
>TIA
>
>-
2005\03\12@043551
by
Jinx
Thanks for all comments so far
> My 2 cents;
>
> The 10mil tracks definitely look thinner;
>
> A perception I have when doing a board is it looks very
> cluttered on the screen
This is the finest board I've submitted using Eagle and I've a couple
similar to come so I'll have to watch out for etch tolerances. Thanks
for the advice re 16mil tracks. The previous board to this was based
on 32mil-86mil so the difference between screen and board was hardly
so obvious
But you've answered my question about over-etching
> Errors on registration and trim size, however, are not acceptable
No, I'm definitely not happy about that
The problem stemmed from the size restriction of Eagle Light, which
is what I'm using now, although I intend to register it. The final board
needed to be 0.15" longer than allowable so I wanted to drop the file
into their full version and add the 0.15", which was simply blank PCB
with a couple of mounting holes on the RHS. However, they did the
job too quickly (eagerness makes a change !!!) and unannounced so
this wasn't done
http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/joecolquitt/bad-board.gif
"A" is how it should have been done
"B" is how it was done. "C" is waste space and has to be removed.
The LHS is then OK (which is good because the panel component
spacing is based on the LHS- and if they'd used the LHS as reference
the board would have come out OK as the RHS would have had the
empty space), but the RHS has no room for mounting holes. Corner
routing is so not equal - no idea what they were thinking
But as I said to someone this afternoon, although overall it's a mistake
they actually did a good production job, IYKWIM ;-)
Very Big Sigh. Oh well, live and learn, live and learn
2005\03\12@171512
by
William Chops Westfield
On Mar 11, 2005, at 4:28 PM, Jinx wrote:
> I gave the board house only project files and left Gerber creation to
> them. What would you suggest ? The board house uses full Eagle
I'm very wary of board houses that claim to take cad projects directly.
Just based on experience with Eagle, there seems to be a tremendous
amount of flexibility in the final conversion steps, and I lack
confidence that the board house will do things the way I had in mind.
BTW, if your board is "close" the the maximum size allowed in the
restricted versions of Eagle, you might want to notice that it seems
to only be component origins that must fit within the limits. Edges
of pads, tracks, holes, and the board outline can all be anywhere...
BillW
2005\03\12@193135
by
Jinx
> amount of flexibility in the final conversion steps, and I lack
> confidence that the board house will do things the way I had in mind.
Although over-etching is a possible/likely suspect I wonder about
the vias. Like myself, they're quite small but perfectly formed. When
I initially saw the thinness of the tracks I half-expected the vias to
be flimsy too, but they aren't. All speculation, I'll have to front up at
the bh tomorrow and find out
> BTW, if your board is "close" the the maximum size allowed in the
> restricted versions of Eagle, you might want to notice that it seems
> to only be component origins that must fit within the limits. Edges
> of pads, tracks, holes, and the board outline can all be anywhere...
Are you sure ? Not saying you're wrong, but I couldn't org this board
smaller than 4 x 3.125, to be a final size of 4 x 2.4. I had to lay down
a border of t b and vRestrict areas to limit the router sideways. Don't
do a lot of boards for production, virtually everything I use is few-off
hand-mades, so I'm not au fait with every aspect of Eagle. If you can
point out what I've overlooked (Eagle Light remember) that would be
appreciated
2005\03\12@204116
by
William Chops Westfield
--Apple-Mail-2--773110833
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On Mar 12, 2005, at 4:31 PM, Jinx wrote:
>> BTW, if your board is "close" the the maximum size allowed in the
>> restricted versions of Eagle, you might want to notice that it seems
>> to only be component origins that must fit within the limits. Edges
>> of pads, tracks, holes, and the board outline can all be anywhere...
>
> Are you sure ? Not saying you're wrong, but I couldn't org this board
> smaller than 4 x 3.125, to be a final size of 4 x 2.4.
Pretty sure. See attachement (the inner heavy white line is the
official limits...)
All the components have to be in the (0,0) (4, 3.125) limit, but your
outline and such can be in negative coordinates. This particular
board has been exported/cam-processed as far as the LPKF input, but
never sent to a board shop; I don't know if the negative coordinates
would annoy them or not (but if your shop has Eagle, it'd be easier
move your whole circuit to positive coordinates than guess what your
board outline should look like from descriptions.)
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2005\03\12@215333
by
Jinx
part 1 720 bytes content-type:text/plain; (decoded 7bit)
> Pretty sure. See attachment (the inner heavy white line is the
> official limits...)
> All the components have to be in the (0,0) (4, 3.125) limit
Hmmm, well I'll try a few things and see how it goes. Thanks
This is how mine came out. The crosshair in the BLC is 0,0 and on-
screen the graphics go left to -0.020". The "problem", probably just
my Eaglesque ignorance, is that I couldn't make the org smaller than
3.125" so had to restrict the router. Obviously this did work for the
board house as that Paris Hilton (=empty space up top) wasn't
reproduced. So although it perhaps wasn't the absolute correct way
to do it, it did actually work out OK
part 2 29335 bytes content-type:image/png; (decode)
part 3 35 bytes content-type:text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
(decoded 7bit)
2005\03\13@022128
by
William Chops Westfield
On Mar 12, 2005, at 6:48 PM, Jinx wrote:
> The crosshair in the BLC is 0,0 and on-screen the graphics go
> left to -0.020". The "problem", probably just my Eaglesque
> ignorance, is that I couldn't make the org smaller than 3.125"
> so had to restrict the router.
The board outline is movable, and re-drawable (just lines on
the board-outline layer.) You can also group your whole board
with the "group" tool (dashed box), pick it up with the right
mouse button, and reposition everything at once...
BillW
2005\03\13@155659
by
Jinx
> The board outline is movable, and re-drawable (just lines on
> the board-outline layer.) You can also group your whole board
> with the "group" tool (dashed box), pick it up with the right
> mouse button, and reposition everything at once...
Thanks, maybe I've been thrown off by having a board that just
exceeds Eagle Light's restriction
I received a reply from my board house this morning (at 9:06am,
barely 3 minutes after mine to them). This is it, in total
=============================
Really, I'm sure thats why you came in and
said. Anyway, are they ok for you?
Best Regards
Richard
=============================
This, after I explained, again with diagrams that they had already, that
the boards don't fit in the case, are registered to the wrong end and
shoudn't have been started anyway. (I called in to go over it with the
boss but he was just leaving and he was going to call me back, never
did - so I "said", well nothing actually)
<sarcasm> OK ? They're marvellous mate, and thanks for the apology.
And that 8 month account stuff-up of yours last year ? No worries
I'm shopping around for a new producer, not run by a Dick
2005\03\14@095420
by
alan smith
It does appear....that many board houses now are going
with complete electronic files (can't recall the name
its been given by the industry) but they are moving
away from gerbers. However...its not just taking the
board files from Eagle, PADS or whatever...its a
processed file set. In our case, generated from
Mentor Expedition.
--- William Chops Westfield <.....westfwKILLspam@spam@mac.com> wrote:
> I'm very wary of board houses that claim to take cad
> projects directly.
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