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PICList Thread
'[EE] Dialup login to ISP help!'
2008\04\13@003756 by Sean Breheny

face picon face
As Ian said, I think the non-plain-text characters you are seeing are
PPP (point to point protocol), which is the link layer protocol
between IP and the modem in a typical dialup connection. You would
have to handle PPP if you wanted to go this route. If the PLC is not
designed to connect to a dialup internet connection, then I think you
should look elsewhere (as others have suggested). PPP is not very
complicated but hacking it together in a PLC would be tough.

Sean


On Sat, Apr 12, 2008 at 4:36 PM, Carl Denk <spam_OUTcdenkTakeThisOuTspamalltel.net> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>  --

2008\04\13@133400 by Josh Koffman

face picon face
On Sun, Apr 13, 2008 at 12:37 AM, Sean Breheny <shb7spamKILLspamcornell.edu> wrote:
> As Ian said, I think the non-plain-text characters you are seeing are
>  PPP (point to point protocol), which is the link layer protocol
>  between IP and the modem in a typical dialup connection. You would
>  have to handle PPP if you wanted to go this route. If the PLC is not
>  designed to connect to a dialup internet connection, then I think you
>  should look elsewhere (as others have suggested). PPP is not very
>  complicated but hacking it together in a PLC would be tough.

Another option might be to try to find an ISP that would let you login
to a Unix shell. Might be hard to find nowadays but used to be the
only way to go! Once you're sitting and the shell prompt sending an
email should be a pretty easy task and all in straight text!

Josh
--
A common mistake that people make when trying to design something
completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete
fools.
-Douglas Adams

2008\04\13@140150 by Carl Denk

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face
Another ISP is not an option.
1: In our area the ONLY DSL provider is our phone company. This is due
to politics and lobbying by the phone company. We have been 2nd class
citizens for at least 40 years.
2: To pick up a dial up ISP would be an additional $10 per month which
is not acceptable.

Sorry about keeping putting road blocks out. I was hoping that the list
would provide some information as to where I could learn what my logon
problem was, and a work around direction. It seems kind of strange that
the ISP login I am provided asks for a username, and password in plain
english (don't know what else to call it), and it doesn't accept. Then
when I spy on the RS-232, I find a bunch of non-printing ASCII
conversation which is what I'm trying to understand. If someone could
point me to another mail list that might have expertise in this area,
that would be appreciated.

Just to restate the issue: A PLC (stand alone industrial computer) wants
to dial out and send an E-mail when there is an alarm condition. The PLC
has no problem dialing the modem which request is answered by the ISP
and requests login. Thought this was an appropriate list since this
seems like a common application for remote equipment to call home with
data. If it is felt that this is not appropriate, feel free to use my
address to send to me, but then there may be people on the list who
won't benefit

Josh Koffman wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2008\04\13@141333 by piclist

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face
On Sun, 13 Apr 2008, Carl Denk wrote:
> Just to restate the issue: A PLC (stand alone industrial computer) wants
> to dial out and send an E-mail when there is an alarm condition. The PLC
> has no problem dialing the modem which request is answered by the ISP
> and requests login. Thought this was an appropriate list since this
> seems like a common application for remote equipment to call home with
> data. If it is felt that this is not appropriate, feel free to use my
> address to send to me, but then there may be people on the list who
> won't benefit

Back in 1995 I used a pager service that had a dial up modem option you
could have a computer call and send text pages to.  I have no idea if such
things are still around in the days of internet and cell phones.

A PLC is designed for all sorts of crazy electrical connections so I'd say
on topic, but I might be wrong.  Actually.. small devices like PICs
interfacing to pagers and such is pretty common, so this should be a good
place to get ideas and advice.

--
Ian Smith

2008\04\13@143348 by peter green

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Carl Denk wrote:
> Another ISP is not an option.
> 1: In our area the ONLY DSL provider is our phone company. This is due
> to politics and lobbying by the phone company. We have been 2nd class
> citizens for at least 40 years.
> 2: To pick up a dial up ISP would be an additional $10 per month which
> is not acceptable.
>
> Sorry about keeping putting road blocks out. I was hoping that the list
> would provide some information as to where I could learn what my logon
> problem was, and a work around direction. It seems kind of strange that
> the ISP login I am provided asks for a username, and password in plain
> english (don't know what else to call it), and it doesn't accept.
maybe the ISP used to offer such an option but doesn't anymore.

{Quote hidden}

IMO this is perfectly appropriate for this list. Sadly I think the
reason noone has given you an easy answer is because I don't think there
is one.

Unless the PLC supports TCP/IP and PPP dialing up to an ordinary ISP and
sending an email would be a massive task. You would have to implement
PPP, IP, TCP and SMTP in your application (all of theese protocols are
documented in RFCs but don't expect them to be easy to implement
especially TCP, some of them also have significant memory requirements
to implement properly).

Sorry but a small form factor PC (based on an epia or similar) is the
only easy soloution that springs to mind.

2008\04\13@150535 by Carl Denk

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face
Thanks for the replies. :)
Yes, I had that also, at work pagers could receive text, sent from a PC,
either home or work. This is home and resources are somewhat limited and
additional monthly, or considerable $$ in equipment is not an option.

And for Peter Green's thoughts: The simple login that appears on a text
terminal screen was just yesterday. at about the same time as the
conversation I copy/pasted from the RS-232 spy, I think it's current.

Monday, I'll try again, and try to get to the USA tech support that was
Lincoln, Ne. Maybe they have another phone number that uses the
simplified login. The offshore techies are clueless. I have thought
about copying my side of the login conversation to the PLC PRINT
statement, but I don't think I have enough free memory for that, or to
implement some protocol.

New thought: Is it worth pursuing, our cell phone is on AT&T, might they
have a number the PLC modem can dial into, and send a message?

EraseMEpiclistspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTian.org wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2008\04\13@152804 by Eoin Ross

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I just had a thought - TOTALLY inelegant though...

Butcher an old phone...
PLC relay takes the phone off hook.
DTMF encoder dials a number through the handset. (Cell phone)
Pause
Play a tune (Some interesting ones come to mind)
          Split Enz - Six months in a leaky boat (Flooding)
          Talking Heads - Burning down the house (Self explanatory)



>>> cdenkspamspam_OUTalltel.net 13 Apr 08 15:02:10 >>>
Thanks for the replies. :)
Yes, I had that also, at work pagers could receive text, sent from a PC,
either home or work. This is home and resources are somewhat limited and
additional monthly, or considerable $$ in equipment is not an option.

And for Peter Green's thoughts: The simple login that appears on a text
terminal screen was just yesterday. at about the same time as the
conversation I copy/pasted from the RS-232 spy, I think it's current.

Monday, I'll try again, and try to get to the USA tech support that was
Lincoln, Ne. Maybe they have another phone number that uses the
simplified login. The offshore techies are clueless. I have thought
about copying my side of the login conversation to the PLC PRINT
statement, but I don't think I have enough free memory for that, or to
implement some protocol.

New thought: Is it worth pursuing, our cell phone is on AT&T, might they
have a number the PLC modem can dial into, and send a message?

@spam@piclistKILLspamspamian.org wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2008\04\13@155227 by Eoin Ross

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face
This option uses a PIC even...
http://hackedgadgets.com/2007/03/27/alarm-phone-dialer/


>>> KILLspamerossKILLspamspamchemstation.com 13 Apr 08 15:27:30 >>>
I just had a thought - TOTALLY inelegant though...

Butcher an old phone...
PLC relay takes the phone off hook.
DTMF encoder dials a number through the handset. (Cell phone)
Pause
Play a tune (Some interesting ones come to mind)
          Split Enz - Six months in a leaky boat (Flooding)
          Talking Heads - Burning down the house (Self explanatory)



>>> RemoveMEcdenkTakeThisOuTspamalltel.net 13 Apr 08 15:02:10 >>>
Thanks for the replies. :)
Yes, I had that also, at work pagers could receive text, sent from a PC,
either home or work. This is home and resources are somewhat limited and
additional monthly, or considerable $$ in equipment is not an option.

And for Peter Green's thoughts: The simple login that appears on a text
terminal screen was just yesterday. at about the same time as the
conversation I copy/pasted from the RS-232 spy, I think it's current.

Monday, I'll try again, and try to get to the USA tech support that was
Lincoln, Ne. Maybe they have another phone number that uses the
simplified login. The offshore techies are clueless. I have thought
about copying my side of the login conversation to the PLC PRINT
statement, but I don't think I have enough free memory for that, or to
implement some protocol.

New thought: Is it worth pursuing, our cell phone is on AT&T, might they
have a number the PLC modem can dial into, and send a message?

spamBeGonepiclistspamBeGonespamian.org wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2008\04\13@161904 by Carl Denk

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face
For the last post:
I lIke the alarm phone dialer, and that's something I can do, and
probably have nearly everything except the transformer which is easy to
get from Mouser or Jameco sort. :)
It's not clear to me from the little there what the PIC programming
looks like, and if it is doing synthesis of just tones or voice. Will do
some research on that, and if need be start a thread at [PIC]. :)

For the earlier post:
That's what I like, out of the box thinking, we call it brainstorming ! :)

To pursue the thought:
1: For the cell phone, I am assuming that AT&T would want money monthly
for a 2nd phone on the account, that's not acceptable.
2: Controlling a phone hook and tone buttons with the PLC is possible,
and not that difficult. The PLC has plenty of unused outputs. In trying
the DTMF tones from the landline phone to the cell, they are audible,
but in the quick test, there wasn't enough difference in the frequency
to make a distinction. Note that it might be daughter or granddaughter
getting the call. Had thought about ASCII text to voice synthesizer,
they are out there but pricey. And I could build one, but that's not an
option at the moment. Also have thought about a 555 timer and small
speaker next to the phone's mic.

Eoin Ross wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2008\04\13@163548 by Eoin Ross

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face
I meant that you use a butchered landline phone for dialling (And playing the tune) to your cell phone.

I did work with a guy a long time ago that managed to patch a cordless phone into the 3W car cell phone. No idea about the system other than that sorry!

A speech recorder/playback chip driven off the PC might be a better idea for the "alarm text".

Found this kit as well - price isn't bad! I have used them as a source for a  LPT relay interface and had no issues. http://store.qkits.com/moreinfo.cfm/FK324


>>> cdenkEraseMEspam.....alltel.net 13 Apr 08 16:18:53 >>>
For the last post:
I lIke the alarm phone dialer, and that's something I can do, and
probably have nearly everything except the transformer which is easy to
get from Mouser or Jameco sort. :)
It's not clear to me from the little there what the PIC programming
looks like, and if it is doing synthesis of just tones or voice. Will do
some research on that, and if need be start a thread at [PIC]. :)

For the earlier post:
That's what I like, out of the box thinking, we call it brainstorming ! :)

To pursue the thought:
1: For the cell phone, I am assuming that AT&T would want money monthly
for a 2nd phone on the account, that's not acceptable.
2: Controlling a phone hook and tone buttons with the PLC is possible,
and not that difficult. The PLC has plenty of unused outputs. In trying
the DTMF tones from the landline phone to the cell, they are audible,
but in the quick test, there wasn't enough difference in the frequency
to make a distinction. Note that it might be daughter or granddaughter
getting the call. Had thought about ASCII text to voice synthesizer,
they are out there but pricey. And I could build one, but that's not an
option at the moment. Also have thought about a 555 timer and small
speaker next to the phone's mic.

Eoin Ross wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2008\04\13@170804 by Richard Prosser

picon face
Carl.
I might be missing the point here but how about getting the PLC to
dial in to a receive modem set up at your home site. This could be
monitored by a PC which could then be configured to send the
emails/voicemails/instant messaging etc as required.

I haven't actually tried to set up an incoming modem but I used to use
a software fax and that seemed to be able to work OK on direct
incoming calls.

I guess you'll need to allocate a dedicated line on incoming phone
connection but if your PABX supports direct dial to  extensions tis
shouldn't be a problem.
And any old PC should handle the  data requirements OK - as well as
providing a logging facility.

RP

On 14/04/2008, Eoin Ross <RemoveMEerossspam_OUTspamKILLspamchemstation.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> -

2008\04\13@174626 by Carl Denk

flavicon
face
Have been googling for voice synthesis and text to voice, there are a
few chips out there,

From Eoin Ross' post on the telephone kit: I think I would just go to
the DTMF chip, and a PIC to control it instead of the kit. I think I can
handle that, but need more research. Once I have dialed and connected,
then need voice synthesis. The little I have read and listened so far
seems that the synthesis requires programming in allophones which
appears to be an "art" in itself. Some of these chips get expensive.
Then a while back I saw some chips that would record the voice and play
back a choice of several messages. I was hoping to stay away from those,
since if there was a new/changed message, the whole chip had to be
reprogrammed, where I was hoping to stay with just programming the PLC
in text. For long term maintenance this would be better.

Richard Prosser wrote:
> Carl.
> I might be missing the point here but how about getting the PLC to
> dial in to a receive modem set up at your home site. This could be
> monitored by a PC which could then be configured to send the
> emails/voicemails/instant messaging etc as required.
>  
If I'm going to have a PC powered up, it just as well be the new Intel
DP965-LT motherboard which is very low power when idle. Then it can just
send the E-mail out over the DSL. I haven't tried it yet, but the PLC
manual seems straight forward of sending an E-mail via the PC and DSL.
Will try that hopefully this evening. Just didn't want to keep the PC
and DSL powered up while vacation.

> I haven't actually tried to set up an incoming modem but I used to use
> a software fax and that seemed to be able to work OK on direct
> incoming calls.
>
> I guess you'll need to allocate a dedicated line on incoming phone
> connection but if your PABX supports direct dial to  extensions tis
> shouldn't be a problem.
>  
This is a house with 1 phone with DSL landline. No PABX.
> And any old PC should handle the  data requirements OK - as well as
> providing a logging facility.
>
> RP
>  
>

2008\04\13@180711 by Eoin Ross

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face
Here's a thought...

PC setup to boot on power on - MIGHT be an option in BIOS. I have a number of different ones, and it seems to be more prevalent on older boards.

Use a relay to turn on the PC power.

Do some serial communications to write a file/script

Use something like http://www.blat.net/194/ to send the email/txt

>>> cdenkSTOPspamspamspam_OUTalltel.net 13 Apr 08 17:46:16 >>>
Have been googling for voice synthesis and text to voice, there are a
few chips out there,

From Eoin Ross' post on the telephone kit: I think I would just go to
the DTMF chip, and a PIC to control it instead of the kit. I think I can
handle that, but need more research. Once I have dialed and connected,
then need voice synthesis. The little I have read and listened so far
seems that the synthesis requires programming in allophones which
appears to be an "art" in itself. Some of these chips get expensive.
Then a while back I saw some chips that would record the voice and play
back a choice of several messages. I was hoping to stay away from those,
since if there was a new/changed message, the whole chip had to be
reprogrammed, where I was hoping to stay with just programming the PLC
in text. For long term maintenance this would be better.

Richard Prosser wrote:
> Carl.
> I might be missing the point here but how about getting the PLC to
> dial in to a receive modem set up at your home site. This could be
> monitored by a PC which could then be configured to send the
> emails/voicemails/instant messaging etc as required.
>  
If I'm going to have a PC powered up, it just as well be the new Intel
DP965-LT motherboard which is very low power when idle. Then it can just
send the E-mail out over the DSL. I haven't tried it yet, but the PLC
manual seems straight forward of sending an E-mail via the PC and DSL.
Will try that hopefully this evening. Just didn't want to keep the PC
and DSL powered up while vacation.

> I haven't actually tried to set up an incoming modem but I used to use
> a software fax and that seemed to be able to work OK on direct
> incoming calls.
>
> I guess you'll need to allocate a dedicated line on incoming phone
> connection but if your PABX supports direct dial to  extensions tis
> shouldn't be a problem.
>  
This is a house with 1 phone with DSL landline. No PABX.
> And any old PC should handle the  data requirements OK - as well as
> providing a logging facility.
>
> RP
>  
>

2008\04\13@182349 by Dave Wheeler

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Hi Carl,

Pleased you are making some progress.

If you are happy to go with voice, the ISD chips from Winbond do the job
very well and can record with a simple mic circuit
Other idea is to 'hack' a cheap MP3 player (or at the price you could
even use more than one for different messages)

Its a shame the SMS route and pay-as-you-go SIM is not an option as this
is the way I would go

Back on the email route. I have not researched but I know I can 'talk'
with my mailserver using telnet and HELO etc

Cheers

Dave

Carl Denk wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2008\04\13@190040 by Richard Prosser

picon face
Carl,
Sorry - I thought it might be a business system - in which case having
a central monitoring point (or two) would not be an issue.

Depending on the BIOS however, you _may_ be able to put the PC into
standby and "wake up on modem" when ypu get an incoming call. May also
be able to double as an answering machine while you're away.

Having caller ID might assist also, in that the modem/PC should be
able to recognise the incoming number and pick up the phone line
before (or shortly after) it actually rings.

But for a quick implementation, a voice chip could be an easy solution.

RP

On 14/04/2008, Carl Denk <spamBeGonecdenkSTOPspamspamEraseMEalltel.net> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> -

2008\04\13@192427 by Carl Denk

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face


Richard Prosser wrote:
> Carl,
> Sorry - I thought it might be a business system - in which case having
> a central monitoring point (or two) would not be an issue.
>
> Depending on the BIOS however, you _may_ be able to put the PC into
> standby and "wake up on modem" when ypu get an incoming call. May also
> be able to double as an answering machine while you're away
>  
The Intel motherboards do have wake on modem, LAN, etc. and standby,
that's to be considered, and yes with a voice modem could function as
answering machine, but if the PC is powered up, then probably would stay
with the DSL and stand alone answering machine, where non-PC literate
could get messages.
> Having caller ID might assist also, in that the modem/PC should be
> able to recognise the incoming number and pick up the phone line
> before (or shortly after) it actually rings.
>
> But for a quick implementation, a voice chip could be an easy solution.
>  
Like the voice chip best since at the other end all you need is a phone
either landline or cell. The only issue is being able to call in and say
hit a couple of DTMF tones to tell the PLC help is on the way, or dial
the next number. I guess that could be handled with a DTMF decoder, but
haven't looked at anything there yet.


{Quote hidden}

>> --

2008\04\13@211336 by Carl Denk

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The Intel motherboards do have the boot on power on, I'm thinking that I
would be just as happy to leave the PC up and running though. Longer
term down the road, since the PLC main function is to control a standby
generator, it would be nice to send a message if the generator didn't
start, in which case 120 volt isn't available, but a beefy deep cycle 12
volt battery is, and have thought about an inverter for the DSL or
dialup modems. And then a little board with dialing and voice from the
12 volt is better. Trying to get the E-mail sent through the PC and DSL
now. The PLC comes with a Java based server that is supposed to handle
the E-mail, but getting a problem with specifying the server address.
I'll chase that with the PLC's board. :)

Eoin Ross wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2008\04\14@060306 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>Its a shame the SMS route and pay-as-you-go SIM is not an option as
>this is the way I would go
>
>Back on the email route. I have not researched but I know I can
>'talk' with my mailserver using telnet and HELO etc

As it seems the ISP is expecting PPP when dialling in, and it seems the PLC
cannot do PPP, surely the trick is to put a PIC in-between, that converts a
text stream into a PPP packet, allowing an email to be sent, in the manner
of the original request?

I know that using a PIC to generate PPP traffic has been discussed here in
the past, for web serving purposes, but cannot recall if there were ever any
websites giving schematic and code examples.

For the hardware side, I suspect the quickest trick would be to use a PicKit
2, and develop some code for it.

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