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'[EE] Coil winding - ideas?'
2007\01\11@155016 by Debbie

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PICers,
I'm winding a coil for a pot core inductor. I's for a flyback oscillator, the
secondary will be about 500 -> 1000T of really fine wire. Winding the thing by
hand is a //major//drudge. You need to put a little tension on the wire to get
a tight pack but it's sooo easy to break.

Any ideas re making things a bit easier/quicker? I was thinking maybe some sort
of bobbin arrangement where you can turn a wheel to wind it on?
Thanks - Debbie


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2007\01\11@160208 by Steve Smith

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Battery drill in the vice one hand on the speed control one hand for the
tensioner
Rgds Steve



-----Original Message-----
From: spam_OUTpiclist-bouncesTakeThisOuTspammit.edu [.....piclist-bouncesKILLspamspam@spam@mit.edu] On Behalf Of
Debbie
Sent: 11 January 2007 20:50
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
Subject: [EE] Coil winding - ideas?

PICers,
I'm winding a coil for a pot core inductor. I's for a flyback oscillator,
the
secondary will be about 500 -> 1000T of really fine wire. Winding the thing
by
hand is a //major//drudge. You need to put a little tension on the wire to
get
a tight pack but it's sooo easy to break.

Any ideas re making things a bit easier/quicker? I was thinking maybe some
sort
of bobbin arrangement where you can turn a wheel to wind it on?
Thanks - Debbie


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2007\01\11@160838 by Christopher Cole

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On Fri, Jan 12, 2007 at 07:50:13AM +1100, Debbie wrote:
> Any ideas re making things a bit easier/quicker? I was thinking maybe some sort
> of bobbin arrangement where you can turn a wheel to wind it on?

Debbie,
Check out Coil Specialty:
http://www.coilspecialty.com/
They are great to work with, and very reasonable.  We send them our bobbins,
and they wind wire that we supply onto them.
Take care,
-Chris

--
| Christopher Cole, Cole Design and Development               colespamKILLspamcoledd.com |
| Embedded Electronics and Software Design                  http://coledd.com |

2007\01\11@162614 by Sebastien Bailard

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On Thursday 11 January 2007 15:50, Debbie wrote:
> PICers,
> I'm winding a coil for a pot core inductor. I's for a flyback oscillator,
> the secondary will be about 500 -> 1000T of really fine wire. Winding the
> thing by hand is a //major//drudge. You need to put a little tension on the
> wire to get a tight pack but it's sooo easy to break.
>
> Any ideas re making things a bit easier/quicker? I was thinking maybe some
> sort of bobbin arrangement where you can turn a wheel to wind it on?
> Thanks - Debbie
>
>

What you want is a coil winding jig, I think.

You may also want to check out this stepper-based coil winder:
www.circuitcellar.com/renesas/winners/Abstracts/H3339%20abstract.pdf
via - googling "coil winder"

-Sebastien
RepRap.org - self-reproducing 3D printer project

2007\01\11@162903 by David VanHorn

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>
>
> Any ideas re making things a bit easier/quicker? I was thinking maybe some
> sort
> of bobbin arrangement where you can turn a wheel to wind it on?
> Thanks - Debbie


Tricky.. A lathe can help, I've done it using a couple of tension rollers
made from slot car wheels, to bend the wire about 45 degrees in each
direction before winding it on, and allowing a foot or two between there and
the bobbin so that it could pack well.
If you want it real neat though, you'll need a coil winder.

The fun part is adjusting the tension on the rollers such that you get
enough friction on the wire, but don't break it.

2007\01\11@163942 by Alanis, Cristo jesus n/a

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You can use a sewing machine and use the motor that drives the sewing
wheel, you can control the winding speed with the foot pedal

       
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if you open windows.



> {Original Message removed}

2007\01\11@164513 by Peiserma

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piclist-bounces@mit.edu wrote:
> Any ideas re making things a bit easier/quicker? I was
> thinking maybe some sort of bobbin arrangement where you can turn a
> wheel to wind it on? Thanks - Debbie

I guess it depends on how fine the wire, and size of your spool. It
would have to be very thin wire if you're breaking it by hand-winding,
so I'm reminded of when I tie flies (don't ask)...

If the spool is close to the correct size, you could buy a "fly Tying
Bobbin". They have inserts to avoid cutting/breaking the thread, but
will work with wire. You adjust the tension by pulling the feet apart,
but there's a limit to how big the spool can be....

I think you can also get adjustable fly-tying bobbins, which might work
with larger spool sizes. And I'm sure you can hack one up to make it
work with your spool...


2007\01\11@170639 by Marcel duchamp

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For more than a few, get a real coil winding machine involved.

For only a few, a motor driven electric eraser works fairly well.  Find
something round to use in place of a rubber eraser and build it up with
tape until the bobbin is a press fit.  It takes a knack but it's not too
hard to catch on to.

Debbie wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2007\01\11@171901 by Bob Axtell

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Debbie wrote:
> PICers,
> I'm winding a coil for a pot core inductor. I's for a flyback oscillator, the
> secondary will be about 500 -> 1000T of really fine wire. Winding the thing by
> hand is a //major//drudge. You need to put a little tension on the wire to get
> a tight pack but it's sooo easy to break.
>
> Any ideas re making things a bit easier/quicker? I was thinking maybe some sort
> of bobbin arrangement where you can turn a wheel to wind it on?
> Thanks - Debbie
>
>
> Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com
>  
You must like pain...

Contact Micromex in Tucson, they have an excellent coil-winding facility
just across the border in Imura,
Sonora, MX. They do that for a living. Good prices, too.

--Bob

2007\01\12@002920 by William Chops Westfield

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On Jan 11, 2007, at 2:17 PM, Bob Axtell wrote:

> Contact Micromex in Tucson, they have an excellent coil-winding
> facility
> just across the border in Imura,
> Sonora, MX. They do that for a living. Good prices, too.
>
Just out of curiosity, what's the minimum quantity such a place
would require you to buy, and what constitutes a "good price" ?

For one, you might use a cordless screwdriver, which rotates slowly
enough that you can probably control tension by hand.  Calibrate
the rate of rotation, and count turns by timing:  1000 turns at
100rpm would take 10 minutes...

BillW

2007\01\12@011449 by Anand Dhuru

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> PICers,
> I'm winding a coil for a pot core inductor. I's for a flyback oscillator,
> the
> secondary will be about 500 -> 1000T of really fine wire. Winding the
> thing by
> hand is a //major//drudge. You need to put a little tension on the wire to
> get
> a tight pack but it's sooo easy to break.
>
If you do have to wind them manually, remember that for every turn you make
on the bobbin, the stock wire twists. And this makes it much easier to
break. Try to reverse this twist every few tens of turns and I suspect it
wouldnt break as aeily.

Regards,

Anand

2007\01\12@021316 by Debbie

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--- Anand Dhuru <.....ardhuruKILLspamspam.....vsnl.com> wrote:

> >You need to put a little tension on the wire to
> > get
> > a tight pack but it's sooo easy to break.
> >
> If you do have to wind them manually, remember that for every turn you make
> on the bobbin, the stock wire twists. And this makes it much easier to
> break. Try to reverse this twist every few tens of turns and I suspect it
> wouldnt break as aeily.

Thanks guys! Some great ideas there. The cordless screwdriver sounds seriously
promising - you'd use a rubber eraser to grip the pot-core bobbin, stick it
onto the screwdriver and start winding. Slow speed is important,  a fast wind
up would break the wire for sure. Hadn't thought of the stock wire twisting:
good one, Anand.
Best - Debbie

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2007\01\12@060731 by Alan B. Pearce

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>Battery drill in the vice one hand on the speed control
>one hand for the tensioner

Probably better off with an egg-beater type hand drill, it will be a lot
more controllable.

Rather than using ones fingers to provide the tension, it is probably better
to make some sort of clamp or V block lined with a suitable fabric to run
the wire through. The friction with the fabric adjusted to get the right
tension before starting winding. Then the layering of the wire can be done
by moving the bobbin side to side to keep the wire straight through the
tensioner.

But as the inductor is for a flyback arrangement, can you not lower the
number of turns, and use a TV EHT style voltage multiplier to get sufficient
output voltage? It will use more components, but the increased
reproducibility of the inductor due to using thicker wire may well be worth
it, along with lower volts/layer requirements.

2007\01\12@060854 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>Battery drill in the vice one hand on the speed control
>one hand for the tensioner

Probably better off with an egg-beater type hand drill, it will be a lot
more controllable.

Rather than using ones fingers to provide the tension, it is probably better
to make some sort of clamp or V block lined with a suitable fabric to run
the wire through. The friction with the fabric adjusted to get the right
tension before starting winding. Then the layering of the wire can be done
by moving the bobbin side to side to keep the wire straight through the
tensioner.

But as the inductor is for a flyback arrangement, can you not lower the
number of turns, and use a TV EHT style voltage multiplier to get sufficient
output voltage? It will use more components, but the increased
reproducibility of the inductor due to using thicker wire may well be worth
it, along with lower volts/layer requirements.

2007\01\12@060913 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>Contact Micromex in Tucson, they have an excellent coil-winding
>facility just across the border in Imura, Sonora, MX.
>They do that for a living. Good prices, too.

But IIRC Debbie is in Western Australia ...

2007\01\12@063500 by David VanHorn

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>
>
> If you do have to wind them manually, remember that for every turn you
> make
> on the bobbin, the stock wire twists. And this makes it much easier to
> break. Try to reverse this twist every few tens of turns and I suspect it
> wouldnt break as aeily.


Hard to explain in text, but it dosen't twist if you do it right.
If you're rotating the core, and pulling the wire off a spool, it's fine.
If you have the core still and are running the wire around it, then the wire
twists.
Think of it this way, a reel-to-reel tape never twists.

2007\01\12@065309 by Tamas Rudnai

face picon face
So that all you have to do is a shaft that holds the original reel, an
adjustable break that pushes the side of the reel so makes the tension right
and a hook that could lead the wire left and right to wind it evenly. So it
never twists and the tension is always the same. Now you just have to make a
PIC based circuit with a led display that counts the rotation -- that should
not be a hard to be done.

Tamas


On 1/12/07, David VanHorn <EraseMEdvanhornspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTmicrobrix.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> -

2007\01\12@071112 by Peter P.

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Imho a drill or power screwdriver fitted with an adjustable slip clutch is the
way to go. A proper winder built with steppers (as shown in CC but also as
proposed by me in the past century on this list) is better. It is expected that
the winding stepper will 'slip', this slip provides the tension. Some of the
best bobbin holders are self made using wooden dowels split down the length and
sprained with a long screw and cones into the bobbin. They also center it
perfectly.

Peter





2007\01\12@080433 by Bob Axtell

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William Chops Westfield wrote:
> On Jan 11, 2007, at 2:17 PM, Bob Axtell wrote:
>
>  
>> Contact Micromex in Tucson, they have an excellent coil-winding
>> facility
>> just across the border in Imura,
>> Sonora, MX. They do that for a living. Good prices, too.
>>
>>    
> Just out of curiosity, what's the minimum quantity such a place
> would require you to buy, and what constitutes a "good price" ?
>
> For one, you might use a cordless screwdriver, which rotates slowly
> enough that you can probably control tension by hand.  Calibrate
> the rate of rotation, and count turns by timing:  1000 turns at
> 100rpm would take 10 minutes...
>
> Bill
>  

It varies, dependent on how busy they are. Just a few would be more
expensive, of course.

--Bob

2007\01\12@103507 by Howard Winter

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Dave,

On Fri, 12 Jan 2007 06:34:51 -0500, David VanHorn wrote:

{Quote hidden}

I was going to say that!  :-)  I thought of a couple of descriptions to explain:

> If you're rotating the core, and pulling the wire off a spool, it's fine.

- so the bobbin you're winding onto acts like a winch.

> If you have the core still and are running the wire around it, then the wire twists.

- this is using a hand-movement like winding a fishing reel.

> Think of it this way, a reel-to-reel tape never twists.

Quite!  :-)

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2007\01\12@152638 by Daniel Schacht

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Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 07:50:13 +1100 (EST)
From: Debbie <cyberia429-piclistspamspam_OUTyahoo.com.au>
Subject: [EE] Coil winding - ideas?
To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <@spam@piclistKILLspamspammit.edu>
Message-ID: <KILLspam20070111205013.43650.qmailKILLspamspamweb30305.mail.mud.yahoo.com>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

PICers,
I'm winding a coil for a pot core inductor. I's for a flyback oscillator, the
secondary will be about 500 -> 1000T of really fine wire. Winding the thing by
hand is a //major//drudge. You need to put a little tension on the wire to get
a tight pack but it's sooo easy to break.

Any ideas re making things a bit easier/quicker? I was thinking maybe some sort
of bobbin arrangement where you can turn a wheel to wind it on?
Thanks - Debbie

If you look at most HV transformers for flyback use, you will notice:

1. The HV coil is wound in multiple separate insulated compartments. This prevents the start of the coil from being near the end of the coil. The reason? To prevent arcing and insulation breakdown in the wire coating. Take a look at the tranformers used to drive the fluorescent backlights on a laptop computer. Some of the electronic surplus houses sell these boards with the tranformer attached. They will easily generate 1000 Vdc.

2. Flybacks are usually wound on a closed loop of ferrite. This provides a "high reluctance", long path for the magnetic field to collapse resulting in a higher voltage flyback pulse. Study the HV transformers in a PC monitor. Some pulse transformers use a rod shaped core. See the trigger transformers used to trigger a strobe flash circuit. The pot core is not usually the choice for this kind of transformer.

3. The HV windings are are often spaced away from each other to prevent "inter-winding" capacitance from limiting the HV pulse height.

4. The windings are potted in a vacuum with epoxy or silicone to prevent arcing. The epoxy or silicone will increase the "inter-winding" capacitance.

5. Flybacks are a "two period" transformer. The flyback transformer works by first charging up the core magnetically using the primary during the first period and releases the energy during the second period when the magnetic field collapses through the secondary winding. Keeping the magnetic path "long" and inter-winding capacitance small results in a higher voltage pulse of shorter duration.  Drive the primary with short pulses, not a square wave to save power.

6. The mass of the core determines how much power can be transferred. Using a voltage doubler or tripler on the output saves turns on the secondary. Use diodes and capacitors that have a peak voltage above that of your transformer output.

Throw away cameras, have some good high voltage parts to study and use. Careful, the big cap can really shock you!

Hope this helps.







2007\01\12@153554 by PAUL James

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Daniel,

Do you have now, or have you in the past had any relatives in
Huntington, Indiana?
Just curious.   I'd appreciate it if you would respond either way.


       
Thanks and Regards,

       
Jim

{Original Message removed}

2007\01\17@085601 by Robert Ammerman

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Sewing machines have a mechanism for winding thread onto the bobbins that go
under the table. They also have an adjustable thread tensioner device that
works by spring loading two convex washers against one another. Your thread
(er, wire) goes between the two washers and the spring tension is adjusted
appropriately to produce the required drag on the it.

Perhaps you could subvert that?

You would, of course, have to add some sort of turns counter.

Bob Ammerman

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