Post by thread:[EE] Buying reflow owen

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'[EE] Buying reflow owen'
2005\05\06@043447 by Ake Hedman

I am looking into buying a small reflow oven this summer to be able to do small series in house (I have kids and a wife don't I... ;-) ). But who sells them. Searching the web only comes up with the big assembly line stuff. I am looking for a small oven that can have a temperature profile programmed and of course have the best price possible. Any pointers/suggestions? Regards /Ake -- --- Ake Hedman (YAP - Yet Another Programmer) eurosource, Brattbergavägen 17, 820 50 LOS, Sweden Phone: (46) 657 413430 Cellular: (46) 73 84 84 102 Company home: http://www.eurosource.se Kryddor/Te/Kaffe: http://www.brattberg.com Personal homepage: http://www.eurosource.se/akhe Automated home: http://www.vscp.org

2005\05\06@045654 by ThePicMan

At 10.34 2005.05.06 +0200, you wrote: >I am looking into buying a small reflow oven this summer to be able to do small series in house (I have kids and a wife don't I... ;-) ). But who sells them. Searching the web only comes up with the big assembly line stuff. I am looking for a small oven that can have a temperature profile programmed and of course have the best price possible. Any pointers/suggestions? Why don't you DIY? It will "have the best price possible". You will possibily learn many things in the process and will have a lot of fun. I'm making mine with a toaster oven, a PT100 sensor, opamps and of course the magical PIC. Basicly it's a ohmeter (for the PT100 sensor) that controls the heater in a feedback loop to follow the temperature profile ~precisely and actively. I didn't finish it yet (did I start it?) otherwise I would share it. If you can wait a couple of months I'll gladly share my design. Hejdå! TPM >Regards >/Ake > >-- >--

2005\05\06@055320 by Ake Hedman

> Why don't you DIY? I have thought about it. But can one get good results? Also this is something for my business and while doing a lot of DIY for private stuff in my house etc buying something almost always end up at a lower cost when you have to count business hours. Will a standard domestic three phase oven work for this if temperature control is added? You have to go to 240 degrees in about 2 1/2 minutes. and then cool again rather fast (but that can maybe be achieved by opening the lid). If you finish your design please share your results. Any pointers to a suitable toaster oven? (hmmm.. getting interested here... ;-) ) Cheers /Ake ps "Hej Då" => You Swedish or some connection? ds ThePicMan wrote: {Quote hidden}>At 10.34 2005.05.06 +0200, you wrote: > > >>I am looking into buying a small reflow oven this summer to be able to do small series in house (I have kids and a wife don't I... ;-) ). But who sells them. Searching the web only comes up with the big assembly line stuff. I am looking for a small oven that can have a temperature profile programmed and of course have the best price possible. Any pointers/suggestions? >> >> > >Why don't you DIY? > >It will "have the best price possible". You will possibily learn many things in the process and will have a lot of fun. > >I'm making mine with a toaster oven, a PT100 sensor, opamps and of course the magical PIC. Basicly it's a ohmeter (for the PT100 sensor) that controls the heater in a feedback loop to follow the temperature profile ~precisely and actively. > >I didn't finish it yet (did I start it?) otherwise I would share it. If you can wait a couple of months I'll gladly share my design. > >Hejdå! >TPM > > > > > >>Regards >>/Ake >> >>-- >>--- >> >> -- --- Ake Hedman (YAP - Yet Another Programmer) eurosource, Brattbergavägen 17, 820 50 LOS, Sweden Phone: (46) 657 413430 Cellular: (46) 73 84 84 102 Company home: http://www.eurosource.se Kryddor/Te/Kaffe: http://www.brattberg.com Personal homepage: http://www.eurosource.se/akhe Automated home: http://www.vscp.org

2005\05\06@063250 by ThePicMan

At 11.53 2005.05.06 +0200, you wrote: >> Why don't you DIY? > >I have thought about it. But can one get good results? I'd say definitely yes. Check these links: www.seattlerobotics.org/encoder/200006/oven_art.htm www.stencilsunlimited.com/stencil_article_page1.htm http://www.beloev.net/gbvio.html www.sparkfun.com/tutorial/ReflowToaster/reflow-toaster.htm http://www.esmonde-white.com/toasteroven.html http://articulationllc.home.comcast.net/sm0402.htm there's even a group/mailinglist somewhere.. but I don't recall where / what is its name, sorry. >Also this is something for my business and while doing a lot of DIY for private stuff in my house etc buying something almost always end up at a lower cost when you have to count business hours. True, but if you check the main page of the 2nd link I gave you, you'll see that other than telling you how to make a DIY toaster oven they will gladly sell you one for ~$4500. While for direct experience I do agree with your affirmation above, I think that in this case the "DIY" is well worth. >Will a standard domestic three phase oven work for this if temperature control is added? Sorry, haven't tested it yet. I made sure though to buy the "hottest" oven I found, just to have some good margins. My oven says "260C" as the hottest selectable (by hand so far) temperature. Also, I bought a oven with a fan inside, imagining this is a good thing. :D >You have to go to 240 degrees in about 2 1/2 minutes. and then cool again rather fast (but that can maybe be achieved by opening the lid). In fact. Or use a solenoid/motor to automatize the process. ;) >If you finish your design please share your results. Any pointers to a suitable toaster oven? (hmmm.. getting interested here... ;-) ) Above. ;) >Cheers >/Ake > >ps "Hej Då" => You Swedish or some connection? ds Lotsa kompisar there. ;) {Quote hidden}>ThePicMan wrote: > >>At 10.34 2005.05.06 +0200, you wrote: >> >> >>>I am looking into buying a small reflow oven this summer to be able to do small series in house (I have kids and a wife don't I... ;-) ). But who sells them. Searching the web only comes up with the big assembly line stuff. I am looking for a small oven that can have a temperature profile programmed and of course have the best price possible. Any pointers/suggestions? >>> >> >>Why don't you DIY? >> >>It will "have the best price possible". You will possibily learn many things in the process and will have a lot of fun. >> >>I'm making mine with a toaster oven, a PT100 sensor, opamps and of course the magical PIC. Basicly it's a ohmeter (for the PT100 sensor) that controls the heater in a feedback loop to follow the temperature profile ~precisely and actively. >> >>I didn't finish it yet (did I start it?) otherwise I would share it. If you can wait a couple of months I'll gladly share my design. >> >>Hejdå! >>TPM >> >> >> >> >> >>>Regards >>>/Ake >>> >>>-- --- >>> > > >-- >--- >Ake Hedman (YAP - Yet Another Programmer) >eurosource, Brattbergavägen 17, 820 50 LOS, Sweden >Phone: (46) 657 413430 Cellular: (46) 73 84 84 102 >Company home: http://www.eurosource.se >Kryddor/Te/Kaffe: http://www.brattberg.com >Personal homepage: http://www.eurosource.se/akhe >Automated home: http://www.vscp.org > > >

2005\05\06@065216 by Vic Fraenckel

Ake, You might be interested in reading this tutorial at SparkFun.com http://www.sparkfun.com/tutorial/ReflowToaster/reflow-toaster.htm This is a work in progress and I expect to see a controller DYI system sold by them soon. There is a lot of interest in this topic. There are forums at this site as well that might interest some readers. HTH Vic ________________________________________________________ Victor Fraenckel - The Windman victorf ATSIGN windreader DOTcom KC2GUI

2005\05\06@070433 by Ake Hedman

Thanks very interesting links. Maybe should try this after all...... /Ake ThePicMan wrote: {Quote hidden}>At 11.53 2005.05.06 +0200, you wrote: > > >>>Why don't you DIY? >>> >>> >>I have thought about it. But can one get good results? >> >> > >I'd say definitely yes. Check these links: > >www.seattlerobotics.org/encoder/200006/oven_art.htm >www.stencilsunlimited.com/stencil_article_page1.htm >http://www.beloev.net/gbvio.html >www.sparkfun.com/tutorial/ReflowToaster/reflow-toaster.htm >http://www.esmonde-white.com/toasteroven.html >http://articulationllc.home.comcast.net/sm0402.htm > >there's even a group/mailinglist somewhere.. but I don't recall >where / what is its name, sorry. > > > > >>Also this is something for my business and while doing a lot of DIY for private stuff in my house etc buying something almost always end up at a lower cost when you have to count business hours. >> >> > >True, but if you check the main page of the 2nd link I gave >you, you'll see that other than telling you how to make a DIY >toaster oven they will gladly sell you one for ~$4500. While >for direct experience I do agree with your affirmation above, >I think that in this case the "DIY" is well worth. > > > > >>Will a standard domestic three phase oven work for this if temperature control is added? >> >> > >Sorry, haven't tested it yet. I made sure though to buy the >"hottest" oven I found, just to have some good margins. My >oven says "260C" as the hottest selectable (by hand so far) >temperature. Also, I bought a oven with a fan inside, imagining >this is a good thing. :D > > > > >>You have to go to 240 degrees in about 2 1/2 minutes. and then cool again rather fast (but that can maybe be achieved by opening the lid). >> >> > >In fact. Or use a solenoid/motor to automatize the process. ;) > > > > >>If you finish your design please share your results. Any pointers to a suitable toaster oven? (hmmm.. getting interested here... ;-) ) >> >> > >Above. ;) > > > > > >>Cheers >>/Ake >> >>ps "Hej Då" => You Swedish or some connection? ds >> >> > >Lotsa kompisar there. ;) > > > > > > >>ThePicMan wrote: >> >> >> >>>At 10.34 2005.05.06 +0200, you wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>I am looking into buying a small reflow oven this summer to be able to do small series in house (I have kids and a wife don't I... ;-) ). But who sells them. Searching the web only comes up with the big assembly line stuff. I am looking for a small oven that can have a temperature profile programmed and of course have the best price possible. Any pointers/suggestions? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>Why don't you DIY? >>> >>>It will "have the best price possible". You will possibily learn many things in the process and will have a lot of fun. >>> >>>I'm making mine with a toaster oven, a PT100 sensor, opamps and of course the magical PIC. Basicly it's a ohmeter (for the PT100 sensor) that controls the heater in a feedback loop to follow the temperature profile ~precisely and actively. >>> >>>I didn't finish it yet (did I start it?) otherwise I would share it. If you can wait a couple of months I'll gladly share my design. >>> >>>Hejdå! >>>TPM >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>Regards >>>>/Ake >>>> >>>>-- --- >>>> >>>> >>>> >>-- >>--- >>Ake Hedman (YAP - Yet Another Programmer) >>eurosource, Brattbergavägen 17, 820 50 LOS, Sweden >>Phone: (46) 657 413430 Cellular: (46) 73 84 84 102 >>Company home: http://www.eurosource.se >>Kryddor/Te/Kaffe: http://www.brattberg.com >>Personal homepage: http://www.eurosource.se/akhe >>Automated home: http://www.vscp.org >> >> >>-

2005\05\06@073126 by Vic Fraenckel

ThePicMan wrote: >there's even a group/mailinglist somewhere.. but I don't recall >where / what is its name, sorry. Yes, at YahooGroups. It is called E-Z_Bake. However, it is not too active. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/E-Z_Bake/ HTH Vic ________________________________________________________ Victor Fraenckel - The Windman victorf ATSIGN windreader DOTcom KC2GUI

2005\05\06@083709 by Alan B. Pearce

>>I am looking into buying a small reflow oven this summer > >Why don't you DIY? > >It will "have the best price possible". You will possibily >learn many things in the process and will have a lot of fun. > >I'm making mine with a toaster oven, a PT100 sensor, opamps >and of course the magical PIC. Basicly it's a ohmeter (for >the PT100 sensor) that controls the heater in a feedback >loop to follow the temperature profile ~precisely and actively. > >I didn't finish it yet (did I start it?) otherwise I would share >it. If you can wait a couple of months I'll gladly share my design. I am at about the same point. Bought a toaster oven off eBay for GBP1.00, but haven't fired it up to see what the temp profile will be uncontrolled. I am looking at the possibility of using thermocouples instead of PT100's, but also have PT1000 sensors in mind as well. One of these days I'll get active on it. You might want to look at the E-Z_Bake email group on Yahoo groups which was set up to discuss such projects. Not very active, but the archives should give you a number of pointers.

2005\05\06@094747 by Rob Young

>I am looking into buying a small reflow oven this summer to be able to do >small series in house (I have kids and a wife don't I... ;-) ). But who >sells them. Searching the web only comes up with the big assembly line >stuff. I am looking for a small oven that can have a temperature profile >programmed and of course have the best price possible. Any >pointers/suggestions? > > Regards > /Ake madelltech.com Look on the left hand side for "smt equipment". Keep following links and eventually you will find several nifty things. Rob Young

2005\05\06@103135 by Ake Hedman

Thanks Rob, For $798 this is a "must have" http://madelltech.com/MD5001.html Out of stock at the moment but hopefully it will be available again. Hope they can ship to Sweden. Will ask. /Ake Rob Young wrote: {Quote hidden}> > >> I am looking into buying a small reflow oven this summer to be able >> to do small series in house (I have kids and a wife don't I... ;-) >> ). But who sells them. Searching the web only comes up with the big >> assembly line stuff. I am looking for a small oven that can have a >> temperature profile programmed and of course have the best price >> possible. Any pointers/suggestions? >> >> Regards >> /Ake > > > madelltech.com > > Look on the left hand side for "smt equipment". Keep following links > and eventually you will find several nifty things. > > Rob Young -- --- Ake Hedman (YAP - Yet Another Programmer) eurosource, Brattbergavägen 17, 820 50 LOS, Sweden Phone: (46) 657 413430 Cellular: (46) 73 84 84 102 Company home: http://www.eurosource.se Kryddor/Te/Kaffe: http://www.brattberg.com Personal homepage: http://www.eurosource.se/akhe Automated home: http://www.vscp.org

2005\05\06@105325 by Rob Young

> Thanks Rob, > > For $798 this is a "must have" http://madelltech.com/MD5001.html Out of > stock at the moment but hopefully it will be available again. Hope they > can ship to Sweden. Will ask. > > /Ake > Note that this particular unit only handles boards upto 7" x 3" (180mm x 80mm) which would be fine for small home stuff and some prototypes. Rob Young

2005\05\06@110755 by ThePicMan

At 13.37 2005.05.06 +0100, you wrote: >>>I am looking into buying a small reflow oven this summer >> >>Why don't you DIY? >> >>It will "have the best price possible". You will possibily >>learn many things in the process and will have a lot of fun. >> >>I'm making mine with a toaster oven, a PT100 sensor, opamps >>and of course the magical PIC. Basicly it's a ohmeter (for >>the PT100 sensor) that controls the heater in a feedback >>loop to follow the temperature profile ~precisely and actively. >> >>I didn't finish it yet (did I start it?) otherwise I would share >>it. If you can wait a couple of months I'll gladly share my design. > >I am at about the same point. Bought a toaster oven off eBay for GBP1.00, >but haven't fired it up to see what the temp profile will be uncontrolled. > >I am looking at the possibility of using thermocouples instead of PT100's, I gave up on thermocouples because they anyway need a room-temp sensor, they're susceptible to noise, etc.. >but also have PT1000 sensors in mind as well. PT1000 was my preferred choice about RTDs, but I couldn't find one with the right price and leads length so I opted for the more easily available PT100. Leads material/length was the biggest problem: you can't solder the leads if they'll reach 260C.. so you've to get a PT100x sensor with long enough leads for reaching the outside of the oven chamber. >One of these days I'll get active on it. > >You might want to look at the E-Z_Bake email group on Yahoo groups which was >set up to discuss such projects. Not very active, but the archives should >give you a number of pointers. Thanks. > >-

2005\05\06@111943 by Ake Hedman

Rob Young wrote: >> Thanks Rob, >> >> For $798 this is a "must have" http://madelltech.com/MD5001.html Out >> of stock at the moment but hopefully it will be available again. Hope >> they can ship to Sweden. Will ask. >> >> /Ake >> > Note that this particular unit only handles boards upto 7" x 3" (180mm > x 80mm) which would be fine for small home stuff and some prototypes. > > Rob Young It would be perfect for my needs. Just talked to them and I can get one shipped from France in about 40 days. Think I will act on that if they can give a similar prices as on the site. Thanks for the tip! Cheers /Ake -- --- Ake Hedman (YAP - Yet Another Programmer) eurosource, Brattbergavägen 17, 820 50 LOS, Sweden Phone: (46) 657 413430 Cellular: (46) 73 84 84 102 Company home: http://www.eurosource.se Kryddor/Te/Kaffe: http://www.brattberg.com Personal homepage: http://www.eurosource.se/akhe Automated home: http://www.vscp.org

2005\05\06@114217 by Howard Winter

Ake, On Fri, 06 May 2005 16:31:32 +0200, Ake Hedman wrote: > Thanks Rob, > > For $798 this is a "must have" http://madelltech.com/MD5001.html Out of > stock at the moment but hopefully it will be available again. Hope they > can ship to Sweden. Will ask. I'd be interested to hear what they say, especially the shipping costs... don't forget that it's probably 110V though! Cheers, Howard Winter St.Albans, England

2005\05\06@114233 by ThePicMan

At 16.31 2005.05.06 +0200, you wrote: >Thanks Rob, > >For $798 this is a "must have" http://madelltech.com/MD5001.html Out of stock at the moment but hopefully it will be available again. Hope they can ship to Sweden. Will ask. Weren't IR ovens bad? They tend to blow chips AFAIK.. since their colour (black) attracks too much IR radiation.

2005\05\06@115313 by Alan B. Pearce

>Note that this particular unit only handles boards upto 7" x 3" (180mm x >80mm) which would be fine for small home stuff and some prototypes. Double height Eurocard at a tight squeeze - pity they didn't make it 180 x 100.

2005\05\06@120320 by Ake Hedman

I have talked to them and they will have them in stock in France again in 40 days which sounds OK for me. They could ship directly from china but I'm in no rush. I hope the price will not double because it is from withing Europe. Happens all to often. Will keep you informed. /Ake Howard Winter wrote: {Quote hidden}>Ake, > >On Fri, 06 May 2005 16:31:32 +0200, Ake Hedman wrote: > > > >>Thanks Rob, >> >>For $798 this is a "must have" >> >> >http://madelltech.com/MD5001.html Out of > > >>stock at the moment but hopefully it will be available >> >> >again. Hope they > > >>can ship to Sweden. Will ask. >> >> > >I'd be interested to hear what they say, especially the >shipping costs... don't forget that it's probably 110V >though! > >Cheers, > > >Howard Winter >St.Albans, England > > > > -- --- Ake Hedman (YAP - Yet Another Programmer) eurosource, Brattbergavägen 17, 820 50 LOS, Sweden Phone: (46) 657 413430 Cellular: (46) 73 84 84 102 Company home: http://www.eurosource.se Kryddor/Te/Kaffe: http://www.brattberg.com Personal homepage: http://www.eurosource.se/akhe Automated home: http://www.vscp.org

2005\05\06@120557 by Ake Hedman

ThePicMan wrote: >At 16.31 2005.05.06 +0200, you wrote: > > >>Thanks Rob, >> >>For $798 this is a "must have" http://madelltech.com/MD5001.html Out of stock at the moment but hopefully it will be available again. Hope they can ship to Sweden. Will ask. >> >> > >Weren't IR ovens bad? They tend to blow chips AFAIK.. since their colour (black) attracks too much IR radiation. > > > > Most of the *really* expensive units uses IR AFAIT. /Ake -- --- Ake Hedman (YAP - Yet Another Programmer) eurosource, Brattbergavägen 17, 820 50 LOS, Sweden Phone: (46) 657 413430 Cellular: (46) 73 84 84 102 Company home: http://www.eurosource.se Kryddor/Te/Kaffe: http://www.brattberg.com Personal homepage: http://www.eurosource.se/akhe Automated home: http://www.vscp.org

2005\05\06@120854 by Ake Hedman

Good news. Its a 220V version. Cheers /Ake Howard Winter wrote: {Quote hidden}>Ake, > >On Fri, 06 May 2005 16:31:32 +0200, Ake Hedman wrote: > > > >>Thanks Rob, >> >>For $798 this is a "must have" >> >> >http://madelltech.com/MD5001.html Out of > > >>stock at the moment but hopefully it will be available >> >> >again. Hope they > > >>can ship to Sweden. Will ask. >> >> > >I'd be interested to hear what they say, especially the >shipping costs... don't forget that it's probably 110V >though! > >Cheers, > > >Howard Winter >St.Albans, England > > > > -- --- Ake Hedman (YAP - Yet Another Programmer) eurosource, Brattbergavägen 17, 820 50 LOS, Sweden Phone: (46) 657 413430 Cellular: (46) 73 84 84 102 Company home: http://www.eurosource.se Kryddor/Te/Kaffe: http://www.brattberg.com Personal homepage: http://www.eurosource.se/akhe Automated home: http://www.vscp.org

2005\05\06@122815 by Rob Young

>> For $798 this is a "must have" > http://madelltech.com/MD5001.html Out of >> stock at the moment but hopefully it will be available > again. Hope they >> can ship to Sweden. Will ask. > > I'd be interested to hear what they say, especially the > shipping costs... don't forget that it's probably 110V > though! > 220V single phase. Can be run from 110V with appropriate transformer. Rob Young

2005\05\06@123117 by Rob Young

> Weren't IR ovens bad? They tend to blow chips AFAIK.. since their colour > (black) attracks too much IR radiation. > I think you are refering to "popcorning". This is caused by moisture absorbed into the packaging and expanding around the seams and around bond wires. In general the solution is to have dry parts. This is why many parts are shipped in the sealed antistatic bags with the little desicant pouch and blue/pink humidity indicator cards. Leave them in those bags until you are ready. Store them in sealed bags later after opening. Use a pre-heat cycle to dry the parts first. It may be necessary to do this prior to populating the board. And finally, ramp the heat as slowly as you can and still meet the reflow profile. I think it is generally the last spike around the 200 to 240C mark that causes the problem. Rob Young

2005\05\06@182139 by Peter

On Fri, 6 May 2005, ThePicMan wrote: > Leads material/length was the biggest problem: you can't solder the leads > if they'll reach 260C.. so you've to get a PT100x sensor with long enough > leads for reaching the outside of the oven chamber. You mean 183C (or are you lead-free already). You can crimp the wires with success. Suitbale crimp tubes are available. Unlike for thermocouples where the material of the wires and the tubes can be critical. Peter

2005\05\07@025356 by Dmitriy Kiryashov

It is only providing 250*C at this moment. Rob Young wrote: {Quote hidden}> > >> For $798 this is a "must have" > > http://madelltech.com/MD5001.html Out of > >> stock at the moment but hopefully it will be available > > again. Hope they > >> can ship to Sweden. Will ask. > > > > I'd be interested to hear what they say, especially the > > shipping costs... don't forget that it's probably 110V > > though! > > > 220V single phase. Can be run from 110V with appropriate transformer. > > Rob Young > -

2005\05\07@055311 by Howard Winter

Alan, On Fri, 6 May 2005 16:53:09 +0100, Alan B. Pearce wrote: > >Note that this particular unit only handles boards upto 7" x 3" (180mm x > >80mm) which would be fine for small home stuff and some prototypes. > > Double height Eurocard at a tight squeeze - pity they didn't make it 180 x 100. Errr... isn't Eurocard 160 x 100mm? In which case how do you "squeeze" it into the 80mm maximum? Cheers, Howard Winter St.Albans, England

2005\05\07@132420 by Rob Young

> Alan, > > On Fri, 6 May 2005 16:53:09 +0100, Alan B. Pearce wrote: > >> >Note that this particular unit only handles boards > upto 7" x 3" (180mm x >> >80mm) which would be fine for small home stuff and > some prototypes. >> >> Double height Eurocard at a tight squeeze - pity they > didn't make it 180 x 100. > > Errr... isn't Eurocard 160 x 100mm? In which case how > do you "squeeze" it into the 80mm maximum? > Fold it in half, of course. :-) Rob Young

2005\05\09@040036 by Alan B. Pearce

>Errr... isn't Eurocard 160 x 100mm? In which case how >do you "squeeze" it into the 80mm maximum? good grief Charlie Brown - what a Duh moment that was. Somehow managed to convert 4" into 40mm - just don't make me do the software for landing on Mars ;)

2005\05\09@052734 by Jake Anderson

> > Somehow managed to convert 4" into 40mm - just don't make me do > the software > for landing on Mars ;) why not you seem qualified?

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