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'[EE] Battery Magic - improved NimH - 1 minute char'
2005\12\26@031832 by Russell McMahon

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Sanyo "eneloop" improved Nickel metal hydride battery.
Vastly improved (reduced) self discharge rate.
Best thing about this is that others will no doubt follow their lead
(patents or no) and the NimH battery will be much improved in the next
few years.
Surprise claim on 1st link below is a practical capacity in camera use
of 4+ times that of Sanyo's own Alkaline manganese batteries. That
doesn't make sense but is worth wondering about.

   - Retains 85% of charge after 1 year.
   - 2000 mAH
   - 1000 charge/discharge cycles lifetime.
   - Being sold as a true dry-battery replacement due to long charged
shelf life

Best semi technical link I've found is
Not a vast amount of information - charging times suggest similar
characteristics to normal NimH.

       http://rechargeablebatteryinfo.com/sanyo-eneloop-rechargeable-batteries.php


This Sanyo link seems dead

   http://www.sanyo.co.jp/koho/hypertext4-eng/0511/1101-2e.html

But Sanyo replied to a query from Steve's digicams
         Thanks for your interest in Sanyo batteries. The new
     eneloop batteries have just been announced in Japan. They
     launched them there on Nov. 14. We plan to launch them in
     North America at the CES show in Jan. They will be
     available in the Spring of 2006. We will also be offering a
     charger at that time.


Various low information reports:

   http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/0,aid,123366,00.asp


       http://www.letsgodigital.org/en/news/articles/story_5065.html

_____________________________________________________

Toshiba Lithium Ion battery that

   - Can be charged to 80% capacity in 1 minute
   - Retains 99% of capacity after 1000 charge/discharge cycles
   - Is ideal for powering flying pigs.

           http://www.letsgodigital.org/en/news/articles/story_2902.html


_____________________________

While we're at it
Toshiba direct methanol fuel cell.

       http://www.letsgodigital.org/en/news/articles/story_4331.html

2005\12\26@104236 by David VanHorn

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Not too surprising that all the development money is going into NIMH and Li
based systems.
Poor Nicad is left in the dust, although it is still superior in some
applications.

I have some samples of a Li battery that is 170mAH, and almost exactly the
size and thickness of a business card.
The recharge rate isn't unusually high, but I'm impressed by the physicals.

2005\12\26@104236 by David VanHorn

picon face
Not too surprising that all the development money is going into NIMH and Li
based systems.
Poor Nicad is left in the dust, although it is still superior in some
applications.

I have some samples of a Li battery that is 170mAH, and almost exactly the
size and thickness of a business card.
The recharge rate isn't unusually high, but I'm impressed by the physicals.

2005\12\26@183941 by William Chops Westfield

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On Dec 26, 2005, at 12:17 AM, Russell McMahon wrote:

> Sanyo "eneloop" improved Nickel metal hydride battery.
> Vastly improved (reduced) self discharge rate.
> Best thing about this is that others will no doubt follow their lead
> (patents or no) and the NimH battery will be much improved in the next
> few years.

Yes to all.  Very exciting.


> Surprise claim on 1st link below is a practical capacity in camera use
> of 4+ times that of Sanyo's own Alkaline manganese batteries. That
> doesn't make sense but is worth wondering about.
>
The initial set of digital cameras put such a high current drain on
the batteries that the discharge curve was way past the point where
manufacturers determined their nominal "capacity" measurement.  Even
in those days could get more pictures out of a set of NiCds than a
set of alkalines, even though the alkalines theoretically had a much
higher capacity.   Meanwhile, NiMH cells have reached about the SAME
cacpacity as alkalines (alkalines are supposedly 2.85 AH, and NiMHs
are supposedly up to 2.5AH), and I don't think anyone doubts that the
NiMH cells are MUCH better at delivering that capacity than an alkaline
cells.

(Of course, also "meanwhile", battery manufacturers have been
re-optimizing
their batteries for high-current, and camera manufacturers have been
re-engineering the cameras to get better battery life out of normal
batteries, so the waters ARE pretty muddy.  But it doesn't surprise
me at all that someone could pick a camera/alkaline/NiMH combination
and come up with 4x the life from NiMH vs the alkalines...)

Really excellent data on battery life at high currents here:
Alkaline/Lithium: candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=64660
NiMH:             http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=79302

(raw summary: at a 1A discharge rate, the best of the alkalines only
deliver about 1AH, while there are quite a number of NiMH cells that
deliver 2AH at 1A...  The 1.5V Lithium discharge curves are amazing.)

BillW

2005\12\26@201403 by William Chops Westfield

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On Dec 26, 2005, at 7:42 AM, David VanHorn wrote:

> Poor Nicad is left in the dust

As I take apart modern laptop battery packs, I am amazed by the
amount and complexity of electronics they contain.  And I always
wonder what sort of performance could have been pulled from older
technologies (like NiCd, or even Lead-acid) if a similar amount
of 'smart electronics' had been dedicated to 'managing' THEM...

BillW

2005\12\27@012044 by Herbert Graf

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On Mon, 2005-12-26 at 17:14 -0800, William Chops Westfield wrote:
> On Dec 26, 2005, at 7:42 AM, David VanHorn wrote:
>
> > Poor Nicad is left in the dust
>
> As I take apart modern laptop battery packs, I am amazed by the
> amount and complexity of electronics they contain.  And I always
> wonder what sort of performance could have been pulled from older
> technologies (like NiCd, or even Lead-acid) if a similar amount
> of 'smart electronics' had been dedicated to 'managing' THEM...

Not much. Lead acid and NiCad are comparatively both very forgiving of
charge curves, overcharging, and even deep cycling (to an extent).

The majority of electronics in modern packs are there for safety reasons
and to protect the battery from deep discharge.

NiCads and lead acid were quite safe, they could take a huge amount of
abuse and usually get ticking (of course, push any battery too far and
bad things will happen, it's just the bar was pretty high before the bad
things started happening).

Li-ion batteries can be VERY dangerous from even the most "benign" types
of things. Overcharging or charging them too fast can be VERY dangerous
(think flames...). Discharging them too far can irreversibly destroy the
battery.

Aside from safety, putting more of the charging circuitry into the pack
itself lets manufacturers keep their devices slightly more generic,
passing some of the cost over to the battery, allowing cheaper "trim"
levels (like in cars).

The only real distressing thing to me has been the complete loss of ANY
standardization of batteries. It would really be nice if laptop
batteries were standardized. The batteries would be FAR cheaper.

TTYL

-----------------------------
Herbert's PIC Stuff:
http://repatch.dyndns.org:8383/pic_stuff/

2005\12\27@113639 by Gerhard Fiedler
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Herbert Graf wrote:

>> As I take apart modern laptop battery packs, I am amazed by the amount
>> and complexity of electronics they contain.  And I always wonder what
>> sort of performance could have been pulled from older technologies
>> (like NiCd, or even Lead-acid) if a similar amount of 'smart
>> electronics' had been dedicated to 'managing' THEM...
>
> Not much. Lead acid and NiCad are comparatively both very forgiving of
> charge curves, overcharging, and even deep cycling (to an extent).

If I'm not mistaken, UPSes (and cars :) still use mainly lead-acid
batteries, don't they? It's not that they are forgotten. I'm pretty sure
that there would be more "smart" lead-acid batteries out there if there
were a significant advantage to it.


> The only real distressing thing to me has been the complete loss of ANY
> standardization of batteries. It would really be nice if laptop
> batteries were standardized. The batteries would be FAR cheaper.

Automotive starter batteries seem to be rather standardized (at least in
Europe). And then of course the "normal" battery sizes are, too. I don't
think that counts as "complete loss of any standardization" -- even though
standardization of course didn't keep up with the fast pace of equipment
development. But that's normal, given the internationalization of the
industries and the reluctance of most to create (and fund, and follow)
international standards organizations that have something to say.

Gerhard

2005\12\27@125832 by David VanHorn

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>
>
> If I'm not mistaken, UPSes (and cars :) still use mainly lead-acid
> batteries, don't they? It's not that they are forgotten. I'm pretty sure
> that there would be more "smart" lead-acid batteries out there if there
> were a significant advantage to it.


Primary strength: Cheap Joules.   Weight/Joule is not a factor in these
applications.

2005\12\28@022007 by rosoftwarecontrol

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Li-ion seems all have one protecting
pcb, it including one NMOS and somekind of
comparator. nothing really decisive, just
due to cheap and available. I don't see this pcb
as MUST ADD ON. All Li-ion battery dead
as fast as others, no much benefit brings for
add a pcb every Li-ion battery pack.

Some SONY Li-ion pcb even have EEPROM,
just useless design, due to most of time,
battery used as 90%,80%,70% broken one.
I don't think they have consider such decaying.
I disassembled two laptop li-ion battery now,
got 12 piece 3.6V li-ion battery to used in
cordless drill, toys, flashlight. All them
have >70% capacity in low current, but are
judged by laptop having only 5 minutes using
time under 2A current.

It has beed said, fuel battery is such wonderful.
But where they are now? Battery's break through
didn't happen yet.

{Original Message removed}

2005\12\29@124230 by Vasile Surducan

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Russel,

"1 minute charge" for 0.8 minute complete discharge ?
:)

Founding miracles in NimH and Li-ion technology seems a good place to
start thinking at electronics. When I'll see the battery completely
charged in 1 minute which may be used 10 days and drop the full
capacity it was designed for, I'll believe it.

cheers,
Vasile


On 12/26/05, Russell McMahon <spam_OUTapptechTakeThisOuTspamparadise.net.nz> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> -

2005\12\29@184101 by William Chops Westfield

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On Dec 29, 2005, at 9:42 AM, Vasile Surducan wrote:

> Founding miracles in NimH and Li-ion technology seems a good place to
> start thinking at electronics.

Alas, energy densities in modern batteries are already getting close
to the point where one can perform Science-fiction-style "convert the
power pack into an improvised explosive", as demonstrated by some of
the more dramatic Li-ion/Li-polymer accidents.  I'm somewhat worried
that there can't be much more improvement without getting to the
point where at least the raw cells will be regulated by agencies
like the US's BATFE, which is NOT to be wished for :-(

BillW

2005\12\30@151657 by Gus Salavatore Calabrese

face picon face
Alas, energy densities in modern batteries are already getting close
to the point where one can perform Science-fiction-style "convert the
power pack into an improvised explosive", as demonstrated by some of
the more dramatic Li-ion/Li-polymer accidents.  I'm somewhat worried
that there can't be much more improvement without getting to the
point where at least the raw cells will be regulated by agencies
like the US's BATFE, which is NOT to be wished for :-(

BillW


I would reply ... hurray that modern batteries are becoming bomb-like.
Technology can be applied to make them safe enough.  What I want to
happen is that the BATFE is disbanded.... alas, a difficult proposition.

AGSC


'[EE] Battery Magic - improved NimH - 1 minute char'
2006\01\01@231013 by Russell McMahon
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> Founding miracles in NimH and Li-ion technology seems a good place
> to
> start thinking at electronics. When I'll see the battery completely
> charged in 1 minute which may be used 10 days and drop the full
> capacity it was designed for, I'll believe it.

It's called "mechanical charging" :-).
Add new 'innards' and go.
Recycle old innards at leisure.
Suggested method for eg cars.

Allows technologies which would otherwise be "primary" cells.
eg Aluminium (or Aluminum) and water :-)


       RM



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