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'[EE] Battery (SLA) deep cycle damage offset by imm'
2006\08\20@232502 by James Newtons Massmind

face picon face
I have a question for anyone out there who REALLY understands lead acid
battery chemistry and operation or who has a lot of experience with it.

The commonly available wisdom is that lead acid batteries die after so many
cycles because they can not be left uncharged (or partially uncharged)
without the chemistry eating up the insides and killing the battery. LA
batteries work will in cars because as soon as they are discharged, and
usually not discharged very much, they are immediately recharged again.
Running a car battery down to nothing (leaving your lights on) and then
letting it sit for a day will render it useless after just a few such
cycles.

My question is this: Is it the total time the battery is less than fully
charged (the integral of the discharge amount over time) that kills it, or
is it being left, discharged, with nothing coming or going for some time
that does the damage?

To ask a more specific question: Take two identical LA batteries. Discharge
both half way. On one battery, immediately start trickle charging at a very
low rate so that full charge is reached after some number of hours. On the
other wait a few hours then charge at the standard recommended rate so that
both batteries reach full charge at the same time. Which cycle did less
damage?

I think this is an important, general purpose question that stands on its
own and does not seem to be answered on any of the mfgr web sites I checked.
(Optima, Interstate, and Sears) One site:
http://www.uuhome.de/william.darden/carfaq11.htm seemed to indicate that the
only important bit was the depth and length of discharge. But it makes sense
to me (not an expert) that any "motion" caused by the slow recharging would
help to keep the hard sulfite crystals from forming on the plates.

Everyone always wants to know why you are asking, so I will tell you that
I'm trying to put together an electric bicycle and I'm wondering if I should
go with more expensive deep cycle batteries or cheaper standard SLA's with
one or two solar panels mounted on the bike.

---
James Newton: PICList webmaster/Admin
spam_OUTjamesnewtonTakeThisOuTspampiclist.com  1-619-652-0593 phone
http://www.piclist.com/member/JMN-EFP-786
PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com


2006\08\21@005832 by Robert A LaBudde

flavicon
face
part 1 1870 bytes content-type:text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowedAt 11:24 PM 8/20/2006, James wrote:
>I have a question for anyone out there who REALLY understands lead acid
>battery chemistry and operation or who has a lot of experience with it.
>
>The commonly available wisdom is that lead acid batteries die after so many
>cycles because they can not be left uncharged (or partially uncharged)
>without the chemistry eating up the insides and killing the battery. LA
>batteries work will in cars because as soon as they are discharged, and
>usually not discharged very much, they are immediately recharged again.
>Running a car battery down to nothing (leaving your lights on) and then
>letting it sit for a day will render it useless after just a few such
>cycles.
>
>My question is this: Is it the total time the battery is less than fully
>charged (the integral of the discharge amount over time) that kills it, or
>is it being left, discharged, with nothing coming or going for some time
>that does the damage?
><snip>

I'm no expert on this topic, but I believe that keeping the battery at full
voltage prevents the degradation mechanism from occurring.

This would imply that when the voltage drops to a critical level,
degradation (growth of sulfate "coral reef" on the electrodes) starts. This
must take time to progress, so the time and temperature must be important
factors as well as the reduced voltage.

The charge itself reverse polarizes the electrodes, so I would think that
this would also stop sulfonation(?).

So my (guess) conclusion would be that an immediate charge after deep
discharge would be protective to some extent.

My brother (Edward V. LaBudde), who's more expert on this subject, wrote a
posting to one of the desulfonator bulletin boards. I've attached a PDF
file of this, as portions of it may be relevant to the issue.


part 2 8523 bytes content-type:application/pdf; name="How the Desulfator Really Works.pdf" (decode)

part 3 422 bytes content-type:text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
================================================================
Robert A. LaBudde, PhD, PAS, Dpl. ACAFS  e-mail: .....ralKILLspamspam@spam@lcfltd.com
Least Cost Formulations, Ltd.            URL: http://lcfltd.com/
824 Timberlake Drive                     Tel: 757-467-0954
Virginia Beach, VA 23464-3239            Fax: 757-467-2947

"Vere scire est per causas scire"
================================================================

part 4 35 bytes content-type:text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
(decoded 7bit)

2006\08\21@013013 by Gus S Calabrese

face picon face
What is the date of the pdf file ?
AGSC


> <snip>

I'm no expert on this topic, but I believe that keeping the battery  
at full voltage prevents the degradation mechanism from occurring.

This would imply that when the voltage drops to a critical level,  
degradation (growth of sulfate "coral reef" on the electrodes)  
starts. This must take time to progress, so the time and temperature  
must be important factors as well as the reduced voltage.

The charge itself reverse polarizes the electrodes, so I would think  
that this would also stop sulfonation(?).

So my (guess) conclusion would be that an immediate charge after deep  
discharge would be protective to some extent.

My brother (Edward V. LaBudde), who's more expert on this subject,  
wrote a posting to one of the desulfonator bulletin boards. I've  
attached a PDF file of this, as portions of it may be relevant to the  
issue.
<How the Desulfator Really Works.pdf>
================================================================
Robert A. LaBudde, PhD, PAS, Dpl. ACAFS  e-mail: ralspamKILLspamlcfltd.com
Least Cost Formulations, Ltd.            URL: http://lcfltd.com/
824 Timberlake Drive                     Tel: 757-467-0954
Virginia Beach, VA 23464-3239            Fax: 757-467-2947

"Vere scire est per causas scire"
===============================================================

2006\08\21@015856 by Gus S Calabrese

face picon face
have you read this ?
http://www.flex.com/~kalepa/technotes.htm
Seems to imply fast charge is best


On 2006-Aug 20, at 21:24hrs PM, James Newtons Massmind wrote:

I have a question for anyone out there who REALLY understands lead acid
battery chemistry and operation or who has a lot of experience with it.

The commonly available wisdom is that lead acid batteries die after  
so many
cycles because they can not be left uncharged (or partially uncharged)
without the chemistry eating up the insides and killing the battery. LA
batteries work will in cars because as soon as they are discharged, and
usually not discharged very much, they are immediately recharged again.
Running a car battery down to nothing (leaving your lights on) and then
letting it sit for a day will render it useless after just a few such
cycles.

My question is this: Is it the total time the battery is less than fully
charged (the integral of the discharge amount over time) that kills  
it, or
is it being left, discharged, with nothing coming or going for some time
that does the damage?

To ask a more specific question: Take two identical LA batteries.  
Discharge
both half way. On one battery, immediately start trickle charging at  
a very
low rate so that full charge is reached after some number of hours.  
On the
other wait a few hours then charge at the standard recommended rate  
so that
both batteries reach full charge at the same time. Which cycle did less
damage?

I think this is an important, general purpose question that stands on  
its
own and does not seem to be answered on any of the mfgr web sites I  
checked.
(Optima, Interstate, and Sears) One site:
http://www.uuhome.de/william.darden/carfaq11.htm seemed to indicate  
that the
only important bit was the depth and length of discharge. But it  
makes sense
to me (not an expert) that any "motion" caused by the slow recharging  
would
help to keep the hard sulfite crystals from forming on the plates.

Everyone always wants to know why you are asking, so I will tell you  
that
I'm trying to put together an electric bicycle and I'm wondering if I  
should
go with more expensive deep cycle batteries or cheaper standard SLA's  
with
one or two solar panels mounted on the bike.

---
James Newton: PICList webmaster/Admin
.....jamesnewtonKILLspamspam.....piclist.com  1-619-652-0593 phone
http://www.piclist.com/member/JMN-EFP-786
PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com


2006\08\21@042032 by Robert A LaBudde

flavicon
face
At 01:29 AM 8/21/2006, Gus wrote:
>What is the date of the pdf file ?

November 2005.

================================================================
Robert A. LaBudde, PhD, PAS, Dpl. ACAFS  e-mail: EraseMEralspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTlcfltd.com
Least Cost Formulations, Ltd.            URL: http://lcfltd.com/
824 Timberlake Drive                     Tel: 757-467-0954
Virginia Beach, VA 23464-3239            Fax: 757-467-2947

"Vere scire est per causas scire"
================================================================

2006\08\21@074029 by olin piclist

face picon face
James Newtons Massmind wrote:
> Everyone always wants to know why you are asking, so I will tell you
> that I'm trying to put together an electric bicycle and I'm wondering
> if I should go with more expensive deep cycle batteries or cheaper
> standard SLA's with one or two solar panels mounted on the bike.

If you expect to regularly discharge the battery to close to empty,
definitely use "deep cycle".  That's specifically what the deep cycle part
is intended to address.  As you said, just a few deep discharges can
permanently damage an ordinary battery.

I don't know enough about battery chemistry to answer your other questions.


******************************************************************
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consultant in 2004 program year.  http://www.embedinc.com/products

2006\08\21@074942 by sws11

picon face
Try this book.

*Valve-Regulated Lead-Acid Batteries (Hardcover)
**ISBN:* 0444507469
It is expensive but likely you can get at your local university
library.  (That's where I got my copy.)
It tells you the details of how the batteries work, but does not tell
you the exact answer to your question.
No one could ever give me an answer, because their isn't a smiple one.

I could never find a study that showed the truth about SLA batteries
because
each type is different enough to make comparisons very hard to do.

So I built a test station, with electronic loads, and cycled the
batteries hundreds of times through charge and discharge
with lots of types of chargers,  (swithcmode, regulator based, and just
plain old 2 diodes and a transformer which the competitor did).
I asked a similar question, which battery is better, which charging
method is better.

I found that quality of battery mattered much more than charging
method.  There was little difference between them except, cheap
batteries had much lower run time, and quicker loss of capacity than
more expensive batteries regarless of charging method.

I would say pick a charging method that is the best you can do - (like
the recommended one in the book - I remember that it was the Current,
Voltage, Current three stage charging method).  Then get the best
battery you can - #1 Panasonic or #2 Yuasa.  I believe that you will get
more bang for the buck.  Also be careful to not over or under charge the
battery that shortens life.  I know these two batteries performed best
in my year of testing of many kinds of batteries.

I don't think that the solar panels will really have much effect,
probably so little you will never notice, because even in bad charging,
these batteries did so much better than cheap ones.  The difference
between good and cheap batteries was very big, so big that it would hide
out any gain you got from the solar panels.

Good luck.
sws


ames Newtons Massmind wrote:

{Quote hidden}

2006\08\21@081735 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
Gus S Calabrese wrote:

>> To ask a more specific question: Take two identical LA batteries.
>> Discharge both half way. On one battery, immediately start trickle
>> charging at a very low rate so that full charge is reached after some
>> number of hours. On the other wait a few hours then charge at the
>> standard recommended rate so that both batteries reach full charge at
>> the same time. Which cycle did less damage?

> have you read this ?
> http://www.flex.com/~kalepa/technotes.htm
> Seems to imply fast charge is best

My reading from this article is that WRT sulfation there is no difference
between James's two batteries. They say that the transition from level 1
into levels 2 and 3 (which is what causes the sulfation damages) takes
months, so anything that differs by a few hours shouldn't affect this
process. A problem arises only if a battery stays less than fully charged
for more than a month ("chronic undercharging"):

"The biggest problem in lead-acid cells is sulfation due to chronic
undercharging. Here the sulfate ions have entered into deep bonds with the
lead on the cell's plates. The sulfate ions can bond with the lead at three
successively deeper energy levels. Level One is the bond we use when we
normally charge and discharge the cell. After a month or so at Level One,
some of the bonds form Level Two bonds which require more electric power to
break. After several months of being at Level Two bond, the sulfate ions
really cozy up to the lead and form Level Three bonds."

Gerhard

2006\08\21@093455 by John Ferrell

face picon face
Here are a few of relevant links
www.ccis.com/home/mnemeth/12volt/12volt.htm
http://www.uuhome.de/william.darden/
http://www.batteryuniversity.com/

I have an RV that was built in 1999 that has the original vehical battery
installed.
I have been through many batteries in the living section.

Deep cycle batteries are not as available as Marine batteries, so that may
be part of my problem.

John Ferrell    W8CCW
"My Competition is not my enemy"
http://DixieNC.US

{Original Message removed}

2006\08\21@094609 by Howard Winter

face
flavicon
picon face
James,

I think the quality of the battery is paramount.  I've been playing with solar recharging, and accumulated (!) a number of SLA batteries over the
years.  I had a couple of 12V 80Ah batteries that were fine when I left them, but after a couple of years' inattention are completely useless - reading
about 7V.  Even a "recovery" battery charger doing a "desulphate" cycle can't make them hold a charge.  Conversely, some 6V 100Ah Yuasa
"Endurance" batteries that were treated just the same were showing over 6V each, and with a half-hour top up charge were pronounced "Strong" by
the charger.

All of them were left charged, and ignored for about the same time, so quality will out!  To be fair, Yuasa's "Endurance" range is designed more for
long-term storage than deep cycling, but even so it means I can use those now, while the others are going for recycling as soon as I get up the
energy to carry them out to the car.

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2006\08\21@113715 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
Howard Winter wrote:

> I had a couple of 12V 80Ah batteries that were fine when I left
> them, but after a couple of years' inattention are completely useless -
> reading about 7V.  Even a "recovery" battery charger doing a
> "desulphate" cycle can't make them hold a charge.  

This is consistent with what the link says that Gus posted. They say that
after a few months of (partial) discharge, the sulfation goes into what
they call level 3, which may or may not be possible to be removed by
electrical means.

With the self-discharge, your batteries probably stood longer than a few
months partially charged.

> Conversely, some 6V 100Ah Yuasa "Endurance" batteries that were treated
> just the same were showing over 6V each, and with a half-hour top up
> charge were pronounced "Strong" by the charger. [...] To be fair,
> Yuasa's "Endurance" range is designed more for long-term storage than
> deep cycling [...]

I wonder what these batteries have that makes them seemingly less
susceptible to sulfation.

Gerhard

2006\08\21@131327 by James Newtons Massmind

face picon face
> have you read this ?
> http://www.flex.com/~kalepa/technotes.htm
> Seems to imply fast charge is best
>
>

Do you mean that the wait after discharge followed by a quick charge is
better than a slow charge that starts immediately after discharge? I don't
see that from the reading, could you explain how you came to that
conclusion?

---
James.


2006\08\21@153332 by David VanHorn

picon face
>
>
> Do you mean that the wait after discharge followed by a quick charge is
> better than a slow charge that starts immediately after discharge? I don't
> see that from the reading, could you explain how you came to that
> conclusion?


The best answer is an immediate fast charge.

If the choice is between immediate and slow, and delayed and fast, my gut
reaction is that delayed and fast would be better. High current activity
tends to clear up a few problems in rechargable batteries.  I don't have any
direct data on lead-acid in this regard though.

Sulfation is proportional to depth of discharge and time, plus or minus
battery quality issues.

This is an "odd corner" question, not one that gets much attention.

2006\08\21@164655 by Walter Banks

picon face
I have one data point that tends to support Dave's comment. This weekend
I  put a charger on an old marine battery (200 amp hour or so) that has had
very little use for 3 years it was significantly discharged and even sitting lost
charge fairly quickly. This time was different. The charger was in a 70 amp
position (a starting option) for 5 or 6 minutes before I noticed and changed
it back to a normal charging position where I left it over night.

The battery both fully charged and the internal resistance appears to have
dropped significantly. How long it will last the next month or two will tell. It
previously often failed to fully charge.

w..




David VanHorn wrote:

{Quote hidden}

2006\08\23@104341 by Robert Ammerman

picon face
>> Conversely, some 6V 100Ah Yuasa "Endurance" batteries that were treated
>> just the same were showing over 6V each, and with a half-hour top up
>> charge were pronounced "Strong" by the charger. [...] To be fair,
>> Yuasa's "Endurance" range is designed more for long-term storage than
>> deep cycling [...]
>
> I wonder what these batteries have that makes them seemingly less
> susceptible to sulfation.

Less self-discharge?

Bob  Ammerman
RAm  Systems

2006\08\24@173234 by Mike Singer

picon face
Olin Lathrop wrote:
> If you expect to regularly discharge the battery to
> close to empty, definitely use "deep cycle".  That's
> specifically what the deep cycle part is intended to address.

I'm not sure that's true. I believe that "auto" guys under "deep
cycle" address not the battery ability to hold the deep discharge
regularly, but just the opposite – the ability to give out large
amperes occasionally.

Those "deep cycle" are lighter with thinner but bigger grids. They can
start a big motor, but can't provide much capacity.

MS

2006\08\24@181332 by Mike Singer

picon face
James Newtons Massmind wrote:

> Everyone always wants to know why you are asking,

Yeah

> so I will tell you that I'm trying to put together an
> electric bicycle and I'm wondering if I should go
> with more expensive deep cycle batteries or cheaper
> standard SLA's with one or two solar panels mounted
> on the bike.


Olin sure would say that those specs were not enough, I think :-)

I am not a "car" man, but, I would expect that you provide the next:
- what amperes is you motor: at start up, up a hill, and on the horizontal road;
- what do you expect from your bicycle motor:

     a) to help you to start moving and go uphill for only few
minutes without helping you continuously on a horizontal road; -
that's for deep cycle batteries;

     b) to move you continuously on horizontal road; - that's for
marine (standard) SLA's

Again, I am not a "car" man, so forgive me if I am somewhat wrong.

Regards,
MS

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